Why learn more than one key?

[Jonathan the 2nd]

If most pianos are using Equal tuning , why don`t the printers just change all the music to the key of C?

[Colin Nicholson]

Sounds a good idea.... but it would never work.
All transposing instruments (eg trumpet in B flat) would have to be scrapped, and you wouldn't be able to play duets with any transposing instrument & piano as they are in a different key to the piano. Would work for the piano alone I guess, but would be very boring if no modulations took place during the music.

Ideal for beginners though!

[Jonathan the 2nd]

So if you play with a fixed key instrument , with an equal tuned piano , will it sound better than with an unequal tuning? Some unequal tunings are said to match a violin very well. Or is that just for the more friendly keys ?
This question is connected with my preference for Unequally tuned pianos and the massive bias towards Equal Tuning over the years.

[Jonathan the 2nd]

I don`t know about it never working. Assuming the piano has Equal Temperament it will play with transposing instruments as it stands. The question is about players who can understand the C major scale but have not progressed further than that. And probably will not progress further. Given that all the keys sound equally out of tune anyway it won`t make much difference to a solo player . The notes will just be a bit higher or lower depending on the original key. If you did a survey of all the piano users there will be vastly more that could handle a C major than players who knew most different keys.There must be a market for more music in friendly keys. This will create dissaproval from many teachers. A salesman would say--"Give them what they want". Maybe there is already a site that prints them like that. I shall have a look.

[Colin Nicholson]

Nothing wrong with playing just in C major - however you may be limited on the selection of music given.

There is a website that can transpose the music into most keys of your choice - it will show the original key it was written in, and down the right hand side - where it says "transpose" .... it will change it instantly into C major...... here is an example

http://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mt ... 0091618_U3

However, like music often does - it changes key, so if you start in an 'easy' key - if the music changes key, it may add extra accidentals that you can cope with - in other words, making the modulation more difficult in the transposed key. There is also no getting away from occasional accidentals in the minor mode.... eg.. A minor belongs to C major (relative minor), however in most instances, chord V (dominant) is a major chord consisting of E G# B.... so you will always get the odd black note to free.... unless of course you just play very easy tunes that dont require a key change.... lets say, "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star".... that stays in C major throughout, and doesnt need any black notes....

but as I said before, you would be limited to the website's selection of music.

If there is a specific piece of music you would like to learn - and its not in C major, I can easily transpose it for you..... thats my job.

Are you implying that you yourself prefer just to play in C major? ....

As I said earlier - no problem for piano solo and many other instruments, C major is not a problem, but it would be musically virtually impossible to escape any means of avoiding "black keys" if you were to play the piano with a transposing instrument - unless you completely reaarange the music for both instruments - and I doubt anyone would do that.... unless paid handsomely!

If you can progressively learn C major, then say G major - having an F# in its key signature.... then after a few weeks, this is just like playing in C major - and you automatically remember the F sharp. It also boils down to your temperament, and whether you are willing to try out various sight reading exercises in different keys.... starting with the scales first.

[NewAge]

If most pianos are using Equal tuning , why don`t the printers just change all the music to the key of C?

As Colin said, it would never work - especially for orchestra works, accompanied voices etc.

It should be remembered that composers often chose the various key signatures carefully to convey a particular mood to the music.

Stirring marches, triumphal music etc, would seldom be written in say D minor. And conversely, music to convey tragedy would rarely be written in C major.
As an example can we imagine what the following would sound like if in C major? Mozart knew exactly where he was going with this in D minor. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtTqpqGIIYU

Also the death-bead scene in Amadeus where Mozart is dictating the requiem music (& choosing various keys to set the mood - also to suit the ranges of different voices and instruments). Ok, agreed, there's a fair bit of fiction here (especially the presence of Salieri) but it serves to illustrate the complexity of writing music for trumpets (in D), basset horns (in F), violins, trombones, bassoons, and at least 3 different ranges of human voices. A brilliant bit of film-making!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKtLSQSH ... re=related

For what it's worth, I have a wonderful transcription of the Lacrymosa for piano. A piece I love playing! It's in the key of F major.

[Jonathan the 2nd]

Yes you`ve convinced me . The change of key would load all sorts of messy sharps and flats into the bar and become a minefield. I was sorting out in my mind the contradiction of all the work of practising the different scales and then having Equal temperament tuning. It`s like being short changed after all the effort. But I just copied out the basic fingering charts for all the scales to prevent getting into bad habits . Writing them down ,for me ,is better than printing or copying. Thanks .

[Colin Nicholson]

For what it's worth, I have a wonderful transcription of the Lacrymosa for piano. A piece I love playing! It's in the key of F major.[/quote]


Hi NewAge...... might have to challenge you on that one! I thought Lacrymosa was in D minor? ...... it shares the same key signature as F major (B flat).... but if you note the various C# accidentals (from chord V), I think its in the minor mode.... except the Tierce de Picardie at the end...... (D major) ...... can be confusing key recognition!

Is this a similar version to your music? (same key signature?) ....

If so.... this is D minor. (sorry to correct you!)

Colin

[NewAge]

Colin,
You've sunk my boat with a direct hit! You're right of course, it's D minor. I'd taken a quick look at my music book score, saw the one B flat, read off the key signature, and typed without brain in gear.
My music teacher in the 50's (a huge woman - who could easily have been a founder member of the Roly Polys) used to hit me about the knuckles with a wooden ruler for repeated wrong notes, and frequent mistakes in music theory - which explains why I now have hands that look like flippers.
My version of the Lacrymosa is indeed the same as your version, but without the voices.

(I always thought the Tierce de Picardie was a horse-racing event in the north of France.........)

[Colin Nicholson]

NewAge..

I'll forgive you.... just this once!
Its funny you mention your old piano teacher.... before I had lessons with Denis & Brenda Matthews - back in the early 70's, I had lessons (between about grade 4-6) with a very stocky bloke - Mr Spowart.... he also used to prod my shoulders till they were black & blue if I didnt relax during playing!!!.... then his huge over-weight labrador (called Sulton) used to sit on my feet when I tried to pedal!!!

Funny, when I teach my older students - the mere mentioning of a "Tierce de Picardie" ....they look at me in horror, and think I'm making it up!!...... one kid thought I was going to offer him a sweet or ice cream when I mentioned.... "see the Neapolitan 6th there? " ......

[Gill the Piano]

I remember my formidable teacher pointing out a 'passing 6:4'. I thought she was talking about a train but was too frit to ask...

[dancarney]

I have the Liszt arrangement of the Lacrimosa, and the Confutatis (not easy, but good).

[A440]

Hi Jonathan the 2nd (good name!),
Yes you are right! Very astute of you (I guess you are a scientist/engineer) It's seldom recognised that the subtle differences in keys are lost when using a piano. Much misunderstood, this is because the "colour" of the key is lost on a fixed note instrument ( a violinist will play a slightly different "C" for the starting note of the scale of C Major than the third note of the scale of A flat Major for example).
There is no reason whatsoever why you should not play Beethoven's Waltz in E flat in the key of C - I know that sounds like heresy! Sure, if you have perfect pitch you can tell the starting note is different but there is no other reason why not.

[dancarney]

Why not play the music in the key that the composer wanted?

[A440]

Well generally people do. But the point is there's no real reason to. Like I say this sounds like heresy, and I guess I'm playing devil's advocate but only to prove a point. That point being there IS no difference on a piano.

[dancarney]

No real reason? Bollocks!

Will Chopin's B-minor sonata sound the same in a different key? No.
Will Busoni's Chaconne sound the same in a different key? No.
I could go on...

Imagine listening to a whole recital/concert with entire programmes in C/c... Wow, that'd be bland.

Composers decide on a specific key for a reason. There is much research into composers' use of different keys and the symbolic relationships that have been discovered (Mozart & G minor is a very interesting topic...).

[A440]

Bolloc*k?
Yes, of course! An orchestra translates the nuance of pitch.
But not on a piano!
Yes,as you say, if you are listening to one piece after another changing the key adds relief but there is no "reason" for it.
By "reason" I mean key nuance or colour. B flat major sounds no more triumphant than B major because all colour has been removed through tuning to the modern standard of Equal Temperament.
Having spent a lifetime tuning pianos I would respectfully ask you to research.

[dancarney]

Quote - 'B flat major sounds no more triumphant than B major because all colour has been removed... '

This very much depends on who's playing (and who's listening). I fully understand how ET works, and yes, on paper, all colour should be removed. This is not the case in practise. Do you really think that a chord of A-flat and A sound the same (apart from the difference in pitch)?

To me, and nearly every other professional musician I know and work with, the differences are obvious. I now understand that not everyone is 'wired' to hear the difference. It's not your fault.

If you can't hear the difference, this exchange is pointless.

[A440]

Hopefully not pointless.
You are simply confusing pitch with key colour.
I'll try again. It's a tricky concept but stick with it and try not to be rude.
On a piano we can record a triad of A flat and speed it up to produce a triad of A. The intervals are equal there is no difference in colour. It is simply pitch. Key colour is caused by the DIFFERENCE in interval. Three violins play a triad of A flat. They then play a trad of A. The intervals are very slightly different, they produce key colour.
Here's a quote from A beginner's guide to temperament (http://www.stephenbicknell.org/3.6.04.php)
EQUAL TEMPERAMENT. This very obvious solution has been known since 350 BC (!), but did not become widespread until the late 18th century (50-100 years later in the English speaking world). The advantages are obvious - all keys are usable without fear or favour, and full enharmonic modulation is possible. The disadvantages are also clear: not one interval is dead in tune (indeed in any major scale the thirds and leading notes are extremely sharp), and there is no key-colour whatever.
This is another useful site to explain the concept...
http://www.truetemperament.com/site/gfx ... olours.pdf

Hope this helps with your studies.

[Colin Nicholson]

I think guys that being able to play in any key - (which any proficient pianist should be able to do) .... is the equivalent of classical fine dining. Classical training on the piano (and other instruments of course) involves many years of learning "all the keys" - major & minor. I rarely choose however writing or transcribing something into F# major for example - even by my standards, as of course - it involves more thinking.

Imagine for one moment we are preparing a luxurious sauce for a steak, joint of meat, or a jous for a side dish. Michelle Roux Jr would probably involve classical techniques for a sunday roast gravy - mmm! using red wine, loads of cow's hooves & ears just for the stock!!.... whereas I would probably just boil the kettle and pour boiling water into some Bisto gravy granules!!!! (and push came to shove - add an oxo cube aswell!!!)....however, to me, myself, no one else, (go away everyone) - that would be fine.... but can you imagine them doing it on Master Chef? !

So.... I think its similar to learning the piano. A novice pianist doesn't really know or understand the "fine dining" aspect of key changes, and choosing the right key for the moment, mood, style of the music. I actually completely transcribed the first movement of the Moonlight into D minor for a tuning customer! .... its true. OK, its not my cup of tea to "butcher" perfectly good music - but this guy is a very intellegent chap - he works with VOSA, car safety stuff & has to spend hours and hours writing standards for things like "anchorage for seat belts" .... yes, those programs that destroy a perfectly good car just to test the seat belts using hydraulic rams & chains.... however, he hasn't the time, nor the inclination to start learning the Moonlight in the key of C sharp minor (as it should be learnt). To be honest, when I finished it - it sounded bloody awful! ,,,, and the dim 7ths section are more difficult to play, and for some reason the stretches of the 9ths feel more awkward..... but it's what the customer knows, and its what he wants...... he plays to his kids & wife occasionally, and mainly the four walls. To a classically trained musician - I think, "is he lazy".... "why cant he be bothered to learn to learn it in the right key?" ...... and of course, it would involve tuition of around Grade 4 standard to coach his sight reading skills to that level - and that the customer would need to be reading music "comfortably" in keys with a few sharps.

So...... we just leave them to it!!.... walk away...... job done, and paid cash!

[dancarney]

A440,

Have you ever seen pianists approach different keys in such a way that their touch 'adds' to the identity of the key? If all keys sounded the same, they wouldn't bother, surely.

Even in ET keys to me, and many other musicians, have identity. As Colin points out, Moonlight Sonata in c sounded bloody awful. Why? Probably because the colour of c# had gone.

Composers choose keys for a reason, they think a certain key portrays their particular piece best. If it made no difference, they wouldn't have made the effort.

[A440]

Yes playing the piano is a very creative, intuitive process which is to me the most important part of my life in many ways.
But, as a tuner, I can tell you there is no tone colour in ET. it's not my opinion it's just a mathematical fact. Sorry!

[Jonathan the 2nd]

My last post fell into a black hole. I was comparing the temperaments on the Bach -Lehman video where he plays the Bach C major Prelude (just Lehman versus Equal for now ).The important top notes in each repeated section are spot on with the Lehman , but the Equal sounds decidedly out of tune in at least 17 places. That`s nearly all of them. The out of tune quality reminds me of the sound of a cracked bell. It`s a sobering thought that even C major is spoiled by ET. In the ET section of the video any violinist would feel compelled to alter those 17 notes. That is apart from the sadly lacking emotional impact. It sounds wrong and it feels wrong. The instruments that are nomininally tuned to Equal temperament will often have detectable variations depending on the personal style of the tuner who worked on the piano. Tuners are artists in their own way also. That`s why electronic machines will never be a good substitute.

[Gill the Piano]

Read 'How Equal Temperament Ruined Music - And Why You Should Care'. By some yank, I think. Good book - I think you'd be interested.

[rgreig]

This is a very interesting discussion.

Going back to the original question, it is the case that some things sit under the fingers more easily in one key rather than another. One example that springs to mind is Schubert's very well known impromptu Op. 90 no. 3. It was written in G flat, but the publisher was worried that six flats would put people off, so it was transposed into G major when first published. If you try playing it in G major, it is actually more awkward than G flat.

With other instruments there are similar issues (unsurprisingly). Fingal's cave is far more difficult to play on a B flat clarinet than an A clarinet for example.

Having never given this question too much thought before, I had always thought that certain keys had a different "feel". But it may just be that composers used particular keys for certain moods. We all know, for example, that C minor was a very important key for Beethoven but whether if he had used D minor instead for that mood it would have made a difference I don't know (and from the above posts it seems it would have made no difference).

Robert

[A440]

Here's some interesting stuff about tone colour...
Does anyone on here regularly tune in Well Temper?
(By the way has it been mentioned how good Britannia's looking in her santa outfit! although in the words of the old song "her feet's too big")

KEY COLOURS
About Key Colour
“Key colour” is absent in equal temperament. As all its intervals are equal, the blend of intervals is the same in every key, so all keys sound alike. “Key colour” is a feature of temperaments with unequal intervals, like Meantone and Well Temper. Before equal temperament came along in the mid 19th century, “Key Colour” - also known as “Key Character”, or, in German, “Affekt” - was a familiar and generally accepted part of musical
expression.
By Beethoven’s day, the concept of “Key Character” (in which different keys conveyed specific emotional meanings), was much refined. A widely read and influential list of keys and their affective qualities, written by Christian Friedrich Daniel Schubart and published posthumously in 1806, contained the fashionable descriptions for all major and minor keys.” from “The Well-Tempered Piano” by Edward Foote.
AFFECTIVE KEY CHARACTERISTICS
From Christian Schubart’s Ideen zu einer Aesthetik der Tonkunst (1806)
C Major
Completely Pure. Its character is: innocence, simplicity, naïvety, children’s talk.
C Minor
Declaration of love and at the same time the lament of unhappy love. All languishing, longing, sighing of the love-sick soul lies in this key.
Db Major
A leering key, degenerating into grief and rapture. It cannot laugh, but it can smile; it cannot howl, but it can at least grimace its crying. Consequently only unusual characters and feelings can be brought out in this key.
C# Minor
Penitential lamentation, intimate conversation with God, the friend and help-meet of life; sighs of disappointed friendship and love lie in its radius.
D Major
The key of triumph, of Hallejuahs, of war-cries, of victory-rejoicing. Thus, the inviting symphonies,
the marches, holiday songs and heaven-rejoicing choruses are set in this key.
D Minor
Melancholy womanliness, the spleen and humours brood.
Eb Major
The key of love, of devotion, of intimate conversation with God.
D# Minor
Feelings of the anxiety of the soul’s deepest distress, of brooding despair, of blackest depresssion, of the most gloomy condition of the soul. Every fear, every hesitation of the shuddering heart, breathes out of horrible D# minor. If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key.
E Major
Noisy shouts of joy, laughing pleasure and not yet complete, full delight lies in E Major.
E minor
Naïve, womanly innocent declaration of love, lament without grumbling; sighs accompanied
by few tears; this key speaks of the imminent hope of resolving in the pure happiness
of C major.
F Major
Complaisance & Calm.
F Minor
Deep depression, funereal lament, groans of misery and longing for the grave.
F# Major
Triumph over difficulty, free sigh of relief utered when hurdles are surmounted; echo of a soul which has fiercely struggled and finally conquered lies in all uses of this key.
F# Minor
A gloomy key: it tugs at passion as a dog biting a dress. Resentment and discontent
are its language.
G Major
Everything rustic, idyllic and lyrical, every calm and satisfied passion, every tender
gratitude for true friendship and faithful love,--in a word every gentle and peaceful emotion of the heart is correctly expressed by this key.
G Minor
Discontent, uneasiness, worry about a failed scheme; bad-tempered gnashing of teeth; in a word: resentment and dislike.
Ab Major
Key of the grave. Death, grave, putrefaction, judgment, eternity lie in its radius.
Ab Minor
Grumbler, heart squeezed until it suffocates; wailing lament, difficult struggle; in a word, the color of this key is everything struggling with difficulty.
A Major
This key includes declarations of innocent love, satisfaction with one’s state of affairs; hope of seeing one’s beloved again when parting; youthful cheerfulness and trust in God.
A minor
Pious womanliness and tenderness of character.
Bb Major
Cheerful love, clear conscience, hope aspiration for a better world.
Bb minor
A quaint creature, often dressed in the garment of night. It is somewhat surly and very seldom takes on a pleasant countenance. Mocking God and the world; discontented with itself and with everything; preparation for suicide sounds in this key.
B Major
Strongly coloured, announcing wild passions, composed from the most glaring colours. Anger, rage, jealousy, fury, despair and every burden of the heart lies in its sphere.
B Minor
This is as it were the key of patience, of calm awaiting ones’s fate and of submission
to divine dispensation.
Translated by Rita Steblin in
“A History of Key Characteristics
in the 18th and Early 19th Centuries”.
UMI Research Press (1983).
Plagiarised from various
(acknowledged) sources by
Paul Guy

[dancarney]

A440,

Very good post; I like the descriptions very much.

I still, however, attest that I can detect colour in different keys, even in ET.

[joseph]

You will soon learn that all keys do not sound the same, even in equal temperament.

That much is obvious from a scientific point of view when you consider that it is the different vibration speeds that make an E flat sound different from a C.

Perhaps the key relationships sound the same no matter what key you are in, but that is it.

Mind you, most of the lay public do not realise this. That is simply because they have not been exposed to the art of listening in the same way as musicians have (be they amateur or professional musicians).

That is my opinion, feel free to disagree.

[Jonathan the 2nd]

dancarney can hear differences but is he sure that the temperament is exactly E T . Do tuners fill in log books when they are leaving a tune up? (Exact details ). I believe each tuner has his own style. Then again , higher pitched note relationships may have detectable subtle differences. The impression of colour may creep in. Has dancarney heard a professional demonstration designed to show all these temperament colours ? The book referred to was by Ross Duffin.( £17.99p) and the review on the net left out one important idea. "Bach did not invent Equal Tuning ." He says that piece of misinformation enabled the spread of ET. It is interesting to notice the topic still generates some heat. It would be a better discussion if a demonstration was heard to notice the comparisons. Do listeners really think the Lehman -Bach ET section sounds right? The uneasy feeling I have with piano education is the list of key colour descriptions is taught with one hand and then pupils are palmed off with good old ET with the other hand and no questions asked. (Young players will never notice the difference. )I think they are being short changed.

[Jonathan the 2nd]

An article by James A Campbell in 1997 about Precision Strobe Tuners , mentions - "The" equal tempered scale -at the end of one paragraph , and in the next paragraph uses the phrase "An" equal tuning tempered scale . Just to see if there was some extra meaning in this difference I watched a video by Eben Goresko about Tuning Major 3rds in the 18th century (Title of the video . See at 6.30 to 7,00.) He demonstrates the colouration differences between 3rds in various keys and then ends by telling us that what they called Equal Tuning in Beethoven and Chopin`s days was a different thing to what we now call Equal Tuning.
The background screen in the video , at the end , states that our "modern version" of ET was only technically possible by 1917. So they called Well Tempered and also Meantone --Equal Temperament
in historical times. How confusing is that?

Especially important and informative is the essay by Kyle Gann --"An Introduction to Historical tunings". This should be put in Wikipedia to replace all the dodgy statements about Equal Temperament Tuning.

[Jonathan the 2nd]

The long key colour list does not mention Ebminor which I am interested in. ( Ouch for grammar the fiends ) .Can that be included as D#minor for this purpose? I was attracted by Rosalyn Tureck`s playing of Prelude No 8 in book one of Well Tempered Clavier. I never expected such lovely , slow playing . D# says gloomy but it leaves me with a very peaceful feeling of blue into purple . It has some very interesting intervals reaching up and down. Can anyone tell which Temperament it`s played in from her recording? Even if it`s in ET it`s still beautiful.
Now I`ve been working through the Prelude 8 with the Kirnberger I can clearly tell that Tureck used the Equal Temperament . The High Cb sounds much too sharp. The Kirnberger sounds lovely now compared to the Tureck recording. All the chords sound exactly "right". Tureck`s recording has patches of beats that I never hear on my piano. The Kirnberger has a warm glow where the ET sounds harsh and tight.

[Jonathan the 2nd]

I am practising Fur Elise which is a standard piece for learners. In the many (ET) videos on the net the first note which is often repeated sounds distinctly sharp . Some are on Grand pianos with soloists in concert dress. My Kirnberger temp doesn`t sound out of tune.

[Jonathan the 2nd]

Very good background information about ET versus Kirnberger is found on Klassiklabel Theory and Sounds . Demonstrations comparing chords and tunings are well done.

[markymark]

Thread moved from Piano Advice Forum

The 'Piano Advice' forum is solely for advice about pianos.
This is the right place for this thread!

See: http://www.piano-tuners.org/piano-forum ... f=3&t=8765

[Jonathan the 2nd]

Ok .Thanks .

[Jonathan the 2nd]

Bach first Prelude from the Book of 48 is demonstrated in 3 Kirnberger temperaments and also Equal Tuning on Klassik Label Theory and Sounds . Overall the ET produces a bland uninteresting sound. The lower notes in Kirnberger 1 have all sorts going on and it sounds much brighter in the high notes too . Pity about the electronic sounds .