Hammer Butt Springs on a Bechstein IV- advice?

[robinh]

Hello,
Could anyone offer advice on the replacement of Jack and Loop springs?
I have recently acquired a Bechstein Model IV...

bechstein.jpg (36.37 KiB) Viewed 40439 times

The hammers return to place fine, but inspeciton indicates a couple of dozen of these springs have broken. Here's a picture of the broken springs

brokenspring.jpg (39.17 KiB) Viewed 40439 times

...and here is a picture of where they come from

I have found a very relevant post elsewhere on this board http://www.piano-tuners.org/piano-forum ... ngs#p40713
and am in a similar position to the poster there in terms of both problem, playing other instruments, only having recently acquired a piano, and aspiration to try and resolve it myself. I am quite comfortable turning my hand to things... electronic circuit board assemly, fidly things like laptop repairs, designing and producing the odd intricate bit of arts and crafts style oak furniture.

One thing I do note is that unlike his piano, this isn't a junkshop piano. It reasonably well now, though a little work voicing the hammers is probably needed. I've established how the mechanism works, quite fascinating, but not explored whether the screw holding in the hammer and butt hinge blck can be accessed without major disassembly. I was hoping each could be removed independently and a new spring inserted through the butt of the hammer in my workshop. Equally, it might be that I hear back that I'd be silly to even think about doing it without learning a lot more first.

Also, should I do anything about the one piece of red leather that has clearly broken and had a spot of glue added to hold it together!...

leather.jpg (55.51 KiB) Viewed 40439 times

Any thoughts on whether it is a silly or reasonable job to contemplate, and whether it is necessary given the hammers don't stick (v soft playing can make them sit on the string slightly when key is held down, but fairly inaudible)?

I suppose John is not far from me and I should probably give him a bell too.

Thanks, Robin

[Barrie Heaton]

For the Jacks you will need the loop spring sand the spiral The loop springs are fitted with Spring cord and a pin,spiral are glued. The Butts they just go in the 2 holes and are clipped off

The butts and spiral are easy the jacks springs on the other hand are not, its not often that the Jack loop spring go. You will need 676, 677 and the 678 with left hand coil for the butt
http://www.fletcher-newman.co.uk/catalo ... s/677.html
or
http://www.piano-tuners.org/heckscher/h ... ml#springs

As it is a decent make you are better getting some one in

Barrie,

[Colin Nicholson]

I agree with you Barrie, best leave this to an expert.... Johnkie is not far away.

There also seems to be some confusion between the term "Jack & loop springs" .... I dont think this action has them, this refers to the costa spring, which was on some Bechsteins - but perhaps this just has the spiral jack spring? The photo you show is of hammer butt springs - and having said that, I think F&N will only supply to the trade.

If you remove a hammer, the second you disconnect one of those bridle tapes, the red ends will just crumble in your hand.... and I suspect when you replace the butt springs (which are usually only available in a full set), you are recommended to replace the flange loop cords aswell. If the hammers are blocking against the strings, then the piano will need regulating...... not really a quick DIY job! Maybe also a suggestion to have the leathers replaced which will help to 'check' the hammers.

Hope that helps....

[robinh]

Barrie and Colin,
Thank you for your advice - and for both clarfying I have the wrong name for the part! They are hammer butt springs aren't they. The name should have given me a clue shouldn't it.

I think it was the fact the end of the springs which are not attached to the butt of the hammer are attached to a cotton-like loop to impell their return action. These are the 'flange loop cords', yes?

The good news is that the hammers are not blocking on the springs - it is only with exactly the correct soft stroke on a key and retaining the keypress that the hammer can rest gently on the string. As soon as any release of the key is made, the hammer falls back correctly. So fortunately it plays well as it is.

I understand now that the red loop that has crumbled is the end of the bridal tape. It is good to be warned that unhooking it might well result in it falling apart - perhaps the best thing is leaving it until Johnkie can take a look.

thanks again chaps.

[robinh]

Perhaps I should modify the subject of this thread too now (referencing the correct spring) so it might be more use to anyone else searching. I can do that once I've made enough posts, if that is sensible practice on the board?
Thanks.

[vernon]

All the red leather tape ends will need replacing as if one is perished they all will be..
That's a simple job that entails no dismantling.
However, the butt springs( that is what we are looking at) will also all need replacing..That entails removing all the hammers.
Buy a new set from a piano supply house and ensure you get the right ones ie the length of the spring-hook to coil is the same and that the coil is correct ie right or left. Simple job for the expert. The job gets more onerous when the hammers are replaced as they will be totally awry. There is a trick to that that any competent technician will know and that is what you pay us for. Lifetime's experience.
The loop cords need looking at at the same time.

[Colin Nicholson]

Robin

Depending on your piano skills.... is it Chopin etudes, Beethoven sonatas? in other words, very quick repetition (eg trills/ demisemiquavers).... will require a finely tuned mechanism & well -regulated. If you are just bashing out the odd tune, then the hammers will work fine with broken tapes & broken springs - so long as you dont remove the action.... then the odd bridle tape end may break off under the weight of the undercarriage (whippen).... and to be honest, on some actions where the springs have caught up with damper springs.... I just snip them off, tell the punter of course - and give them a price at a later date for renewal. Also the tapes should be OK as long as you dont touch them.

Now then.... as Vernon says - if you remove everyone, then a different ball game - the hammers will require refacing (if there's sufficient 'meat' on them).... and if you replace badly grooved hammers - they never line up with the 'male & female' connection of hammer & sting, and eventually your hammers will be carved away like a badly cut bit of cheese using a cheese wire!!

Its a Bechstein.... a good action & overstrung by the looks of it.

Let the experts take over and have a good job done, it will be worth it in the long run.

[robinh]

Vernon & Colin,
Thanks for the further input. It definitely sounds like it might be best leaving things until Johnkie has had a chance to have a look, then I can decide what to get done professionally or myself. Perhaps the answer is nothing needs doing at the moment.
Playing will be somewhere between Choppin and chopsticks. I don't think I'll be taxing the hammer return speed! I've always liked pootling on a piano when I have a few minutes with one, and it seems very easy to transfer skills from guitar/mandolin/violin/drums to piano - if the desired level is being able to write songs, rather than skilled recitals! Perhaps a nicer piano than I deserve for my level of playing, but there is nothing worse than a poor instrument to learn on. I always pitty the unfortunate children tortured on orange violins which will never produce a pleasant rendition of anything. Seems to be such an effort finding a reasonable piano so I wanted to get something worth investing work in if it were necessary. It wasn't very expensive - I think!

re the hammers - well they were reshaped a bit by the person i bought it off (he is PTA etc, so no intake of breath needed), and the pins to align the keys adjusted as spaces weren't even enough, and a couple of other minor things. He's left rather more shoulder on the hammers then perhaps might be (never been reshaped before we think, so plenty of meat on them) so they may still need a tiny bit more work, but the depth of groove is now much less and it plays better than when I first saw it.

It was a semitone low too when i first saw it (when it was traded in to seller), but the seller took it up gradually over a week for me, and it is sitting happily one cent high even after moving (i'm sure there was some logic to it being a cent high, i forget). It is sitting happily where it is so I'm pretty sure the pin block is holding OK. It only arrived at the end of last week, so John thought to leave tuning it until the end of next week when we can drop it to concert pitch. Slightly nervous he'll find something horrid that none of us knew about, but there is no reason for me to think there should be.

Will report back after tuning - but thanks again for warning & advice so far!

[Johnkie]

There's really no point in me adding anything to what my friends (I hope !) have already said Robin. It certainly looks the part, and nothing jumps out that I personally would have course to worry about, and if the tuning is a little sharp
, that too is a good sign .... I imagine you are checking the pitch with some kind of electronic gizmo, and that worries me a little if you expect your piano to be exact A440 .... they seldom are, and most professionals would much rather their instrument be slightly on the sharp side in preference to ever being flat! Anyhow, get the coffee on, and I'll see you in a few days.

[robinh]

Hello John - I was thinking on the point of A440 etc...

When you say pianos are seldom A440, what sort of tolerance are you considering? I do indeed have an electronic tuner, which I generally use for guitar, mandolin etc. I assume most folk would want an instrument concert pitch so that they are in tune with other instruments, or with recordings. Is it that they are generally out the tiniest bit, or that most people don't have their piano at concert pitch, and couldn't play with other instruments or work out recorded pieces by playing along with them etc? I'm slightly surprised as I remember being advised to take a tuning fork when looking at pianos, and getting any tuning addressed before purchasing.

I'm probably confused on this though; as you've gathered I'm a novice on piano technicalities. If the piano can hold its tune marginally above concert pitch and alos below it, is it wrong to expect it to hold concert pitch?

Thanks! Robin

[vernon]

We always tune to Concert Pitch(440) when the piano is within a few Hertz.
If considerably out either way a pitch raise is discussed.
Unfortunately( I consider) most new instruments come in at 444 so have to be kept there as lowering pitch is seldom advisable.
Bear in mind few instruments(accordions,for example) are exactly at "concert pitch" at any given time due to ambient temperature,pressure etc. Hence the requirement to tune to oboe "A"

[Colin Nicholson]

Although Johnkie will "fill in the blanks" for you, I notice you have a guitar tuner. I wouldn't rely 100% on this as a 'piano tuning check' for your piano, because depending on what note Johnkie starts with (usually Middle C?) .... you can only check your tuning device with this note (or the C one octave higher)..... and at that, 2 of the 3 strings should be muted to get a true reading. A piano is actually "mis-tuned" for all the other notes - a fraction flat for most of the octaves.... dont ask, just trust me!!.... so even if your piano is tuned exactly to C523.3Hz (A440 in other words).... apart from the odd note here and there, most of your readings will be slightly flat - and this is intentional to conform with the Equal Temperament Scale (and Pythagorean tuning theory).

Depending on where your piano has settled, a pitch change can usually be done (sometimes over a couple of visits).... and it also depends on the condition of the strings, tuning pin torque and wrest plank. So assuming your strings are not heavily rusted up/ corroded, and no strings are missing (or signs of a replaced string).... it should be fine, and tuned to CP as Vernon suggests.

Believe it or not, a customer of mine occasionally sends me a MP3 recording of some of the notes on his piano - I sent him a muting strip. That way when I nip to the Lakes in late December.... I have a good idea where the piano has settled. He also has a Bechstein - this is a model 10 (and possibly a few years older than yours).... and it was pitched raised about a semitone 2 years ago.... its settled fine now, but the strings are old & give off false beats.... but he's happy.
I'll also be passing Hexham (A69) on my way up to Morpeth!!!! for Xmas & New Year.

At the moment though, just enjoy your piano.... it'll soon sound much better.... keep us posted!

[robinh]

False beats sound interesting - so much to learn?! The odd string does have a little beating at the moment, but the poor thing was driven up here and only just finding its feet, so i'm pleased it is generally in tune. I think all strings are original, so again, perhaps best to tune it and play it now and decide based on how well it holds etc as to what to do next - probably best to get all work done at the same time!

Interesting to hear some notes will register flat etc with a tuner. doesn't surprise me, as for example in tuning a mandolin, there is only so much a tuner will do. it is far quicker to use beats to tune each coarse to its self. i imagine you folk use the same for piano tuning.

Let's see what John thinks when he comes past and will keep you updated.

[vernon]

Almost without exception the Bechsteins' (uprights) tenor break is notorious for "false beats" and are often virtually impossible to tune there, without course to experience.
Goodness knows why they were so famous.

[Barrie Heaton]

Almost without exception the Bechsteins' (uprights) tenor break is notorious for "false beats" and are often virtually impossible to tune there, without course to experience.
Goodness knows why they were so famous.

They are much better when you ream out the Agraph and restring
To ream out: Remover Agraph place in a holder (a block of wood with a hole and screw in the Agraph ) put a 150cm length of hexcore wire in a fast drill, put a bit of brasso or (jewellers ruse sp) on the hexcore no too much, then put the end in the Agraph hole you want to do turn on the drill and do a backwards and forwards motion about ten time in each hole and your done

If you don't want to take the Agraph out you can use pipe cleaner in the drill but it tale longer

Barrie,

[Johnkie]

Vernon is absolutely correct .... I've always called them the "marmite" pianos ..... you either love them or hate them. You never see them being used for concert work, because they simply can't be tuned any better than their worst false strings will allow. The thought of having my tuning examined by using an electronic gizmo, and a Bechstein upright to boot is almost too much to take ..... but I'll do my very best Robin

[vernon]

Barrie
I agree that remedial work can improve these howling Bechsteins but not when you are in some nice Highland lady's front room with the Camp coffee cooling, the tenth shortbreads and cheese sandwiches of the day beckoning and another appointment in an hour.
Anyway, my faithful pipecleaners are too grotty to be allowed near her most prized possession(after the piano that is)
Incidentally,di you know that you can re-use pipecleaners several times by cutting off the soiled end with your centre pin cutters until they are too short to reach the black spit in the bowl of your pipe?
This Forum is a wealth of useful tips.
All this valuable information is going into my forthcoming blockbuster " Tips for Coarse Tuners"

[robinh]

I have to say I am lost in the technicalities you chaps are discussing - I hadn't heard the term tenor break before! Clue was in the name I suppose, and I do note at this point where the strings go from 2 to 3, I was ironically impressed at how even the sound was. Equally I was also intrigued why when the first 3 string coarse is allowed to sustain, there is a metalic ring to it. There is a tiny bit to the next note up, and then it doesn't happen. I notice this first 3-coarse string, and this string only, has a tiny over damper in addition the underdampers, and it seems to be attached by means of a bit of stiff wire which is loosely attached. Sometimes it seems to contact the string, sometimes it doesn't. Perhaps it responds according to how the note is played. Is this metalic sound the 'false beats' referred to?
Johnkie, I expect you to resolve that completely - can't imagine it anything to do with a limitation of the design
No, really, I don't doubt yourself, Colin, and few of the folk posting here are all excellent tuners with different expertise in different areas, but not one can resolve something the builder didn't even manage to. Thing is, whilst I know little about pianos, I tried some Yamahas and they seemed very clean - like a wonderfully amplified recording of a pefect piano, or of an electric piano. Technically lovely I'm sure. And exactly what I didn't much like. And to show my poor judgement up even more, I feel all the happier hearing my Bechstein's coloured sound whilst looking at the most remarkable piece of inlay of flowers and thorns, and wondering who played it 100 years ago, and when the ebony of the keyboard first took root, and... well I'd best not think about the creature contributing to the ivories.
Anyhow, I can quel any further apprehension by noting I have a tuner as my ear is perhaps not as good as it should be:as regards perfect/absolute pitch, I wouldn't have a clue. What I can obviously tell is if I'm (don't ask) playing the piano across a phone with a friend (with an electric), it is apparent mine is slightly sharp - across all notes. And when working out a song from the stereo, it is again sharp. I doubt it will be perfect, but I'm quite sure you'll be able to get it close enough to sound 'ok' rather than simply Too Sharp. Failing anything else we can discuss what I should have bought instead over a coffee :/

[Colin Nicholson]

Yeh.... the 'tenor break' is where the strings change direction from bass to treble. On some pianos, the start of the treble break has around 3 or 4 bass bi-chords continued from the tenor bass region - this gives a better & smoother progression in sound quality. Your piano will start the treble break with steel tri-chords - the longest and thickest treble strings.... and on most old pianos they are notorious for buzzing/ ringing noises. The false beats senario kicks in when you try to tune one string to the next one!

Problem is with strings over 100 years old, they eventually become oval/ pear shaped as they are stretched. If you imagine cutting a cocktail or kebab stick in half with some cutting pliers (not sawn in half),,,, you will see the end of the cut will be oval shaped as the wood squashes.... this has the same overall effect on a whole length of string.... so the sound waves are uneven & conflicting.

The extra little damper is called a 'fly' damper.... some pianos have about 3 or 4 of these at the start of the treble. One reason for them is that when you look at the main damper, it is considerably smaller than the rest - because the bass strings cross over here, and to allow for clearance (and to ensure the damper mutes the string in the same position as the other strings), an additional fly damper helps to mute the sound.... however, rarely to they work properly - and often get nudged when tuning. For the bass dampers, there will be 2 sections of felt per note with a small gap between them. The longer treble strings take more muting - so split felt is used.... but this is often not enough, so a fly damper is added. When working properly - they do the job OK.

[vernon]

The dampers(on the first trichord) ) are defective and just need sorting.
Often the fly damper is arriving too early and holding the main damper partly off the string. As it's only half the size of a proper damper in any case that's where you get the "ringing."
In no circumstances should the fly-damper wire touch any string. Needs adjusting properly.
Fly dampers are a pain and are a feeble attempt to correct a manky design fault.
You see in many old pianos that they have all been snipped off!
In the 1950s Monington was still making one model with flydampers and after regulating one, the foreman, Stan, was about overdosed on snuff.

[Barrie Heaton]

Barrie
I agree that remedial work can improve these howling Bechsteins but not when you are in some nice Highland lady's front room with the Camp coffee cooling, "

O my god Camp coffee not seen that for years I thought it was banned under chemical warfer

There was a tuner who use to change extra if he did not get a good brew

Barrie,

[robinh]

Vernon, your love of Bechsteins does make me laugh! Thanks for the info on the damper etc.
Colin, again, I've learned yet more about pianos - the type of felt used varying etc, I shall have to hunt out some books and start learning. That's the problem with being techy... anything you take an interest in, you also have an interest in taking apart. Interest in music... try playing it, designing speakers and improving crossovers in others etc; interesting in arts and crafts furniture... try repairing it and making it using old techniques etc, anything with 'no user serviceable parts' marked on it that has packed up... always take it apart and 90% of the time it can be fixed. Interested in playing the piano... get it in the house and the front panel is off within mintues... 'so if that lever pushes that, then this must be to adjust the...'
Thanks for the help folks!

[pianotechman]

Robinh must have a good model IV, goodness knows how many wrestplanks I have had to replace due to splitting between the pins in the afforementioned Tenor section!

[Johnkie]

Paid Robin a visit on Friday to look at his Bechstein Model IV upright, and thought there might be those interested in the outcome. Robin is a very nice guy, who clearly has a passion for all things technical (and a great Hi FI set up)!!

Sadly, his Model IV is suffering from the dreaded loose wrest pins associated with riding on the iron frame

Tuning was a little sharp, but now down to A441 .... and fingers crossed that none of the notes slip, giving that dreaded "crush note" result !!

The only remedy (apart from CA - as per the American's preferred method !) is to bore and bush the frame, and re-string using over size wrest pins.

While there are other items that need looking at - i.e. Butt springs, tape ends, refacing, and regulation ... it's pointless unless the major work is carried out first.

If it weren't a Bechstein, it just wouldn't be worth considering spending that sort of money on ..... such a shame

[pianotechman]

Oh dear, that will be an expensive job. Bushing the frame holes, and inserting oversize pins would help, although if the plank is fractured, the oversize pins will just make the split open and 'run' to the next pin hole. Far better to my way of thinking, to replace the existing wrestplank with a modern multi-laminate beech. Should last a lifetime after that, [even with central heating in his house!]

[robinh]

John made a very good job of things the other day - and almost got to spend longer with the piano... managed to help the car along on the ice & snow which fell rather suddenly during the tuning.
As John says, the pins are rather close to the steel frame, so we'll have to see if things slip - but the good news is that so far they don't. It still sounds excellent - caveat being it is Bechstein so by excellent I don't mean anything techincally excellent.... John explained the false beats and pointed out a couple of strings exhibiting this particularly obviously.
Fortunately the overall sound is one I very much like, and it is aesthetically idealy for the room. Even if some works needs doing, I'm happy with the piano. Of course if I'd spent thousands on it, I'd be disappointed work needed doing, but as I didn't I can't complain.

I suppose as John and David suggest, there are two options

1. bushing to stop slipping - stopping major slipping of pins.

2. replacing the plank with a new (larger?) one which would stop as much drift out of tune due to central heating etc.

Of course, doing the above and a whole lot of other things would be ideal... I thought this was interesting as pictures of a complete restoration...
http://www.bedhamptonpianoshop.co.uk/pi ... right1899/
I know the model III is larger than the IV, but this model III is the same inlay and design as my IV... I'm glad mine cost just under 1/10th of this price....
http://www.besbrodepianos.co.uk/piano-s ... laid-1.htm

I think playing it and seeing how quickly it drifts is the first thing to do though?

[Johnkie]

John made a very good job of things the other day - and almost got to spend longer with the piano... managed to help the car along on the ice & snow which fell rather suddenly during the tuning.
As John says, the pins are rather close to the steel frame, so we'll have to see if things slip - but the good news is that so far they don't. It still sounds excellent - caveat being it is Bechstein so by excellent I don't mean anything techincally excellent.... John explained the false beats and pointed out a couple of strings exhibiting this particularly obviously.
Fortunately the overall sound is one I very much like, and it is aesthetically idealy for the room. Even if some works needs doing, I'm happy with the piano. Of course if I'd spent thousands on it, I'd be disappointed work needed doing, but as I didn't I can't complain.

I suppose as John and David suggest, there are two options

1. bushing to stop slipping - stopping major slipping of pins.

2. replacing the plank with a new (larger?) one which would stop as much drift out of tune due to central heating etc.

Of course, doing the above and a whole lot of other things would be ideal... I thought this was interesting as pictures of a complete restoration...
http://www.bedhamptonpianoshop.co.uk/pi ... right1899/
I know the model III is larger than the IV, but this model III is the same inlay and design as my IV... I'm glad mine cost just under 1/10th of this price....
http://www.besbrodepianos.co.uk/piano-s ... laid-1.htm

I think playing it and seeing how quickly it drifts is the first thing to do though?

Fingers crossed Robin Thank you so much for pushing the car so that I could get going in the snow. I have checked out your links and am very surprised that neither example has had the frame bored and bushed! I have come across this time and time again, where re-stringing has been done and the end result has always been wrestpins that slip. There may be those that assume that the slippage after re-stringing is a direct result of a cracked or split plank, but in my experience I've always found that boring and bushing (so that the wrestpins can never come into contact with the cast iron frame) cures any problem with slippage. One client of mine paid a small fortune to have their Bechstein re-strung by a local company here in the North East, and it slipped just as bad as it did before having any work done by them .... but it did look nice !! The client agreed to have me detach the new strings, bore and bush the frame, re-attach the strings, and hey presto .... one nice firm plank with no slippage.

[robinh]

... I have checked out your links and am very surprised that neither example has had the frame bored and bushed! I have come across this time and time again, where re-stringing has been done and the end result has always been wrestpins that slip.
...

I thought they were boring the frame, but perhaps just because of the oversize pins? I found that if you click on the pictures there is some text, one picture states "frame holes being enlarged allowing for larger tuning pins to go through."
I can't work out what they are doing though - any ideas? Are they creating a new pin block? or just making the original larger i.e. enlarging pin block rather than bushing the frame?

[cassidybole]

Hello John - I was thinking on the point of A440 etc...

When you say pianos are seldom A440, what sort of tolerance are you considering? I do indeed have an electronic tuner, which I generally use for guitar, mandolin etc. I assume most folk would want an instrument concert pitch so that they are in tune with other instruments, or with recordings. Is it that they are generally out the tiniest bit, or that most people don't have their piano at concert pitch, and couldn't play with other instruments or work out recorded pieces by playing along with them etc? I'm slightly surprised as I remember being advised to take a tuning fork when looking at pianos, and getting any tuning addressed before purchasing.

I'm probably confused on this though; as you've gathered I'm a novice on piano technicalities. If the piano can hold its tune marginally above concert pitch and alos below it, is it wrong to expect it to hold concert pitch?

Thanks! Robin

Do you advice a mandolin specific tuner given the fact that they are commonly high pitched.