Erard Piano age ?

[Stimmy13]

Hi

I am newbie here and have found the history information listed most interesting. I have just taken delivery of a slightly tatty and neglected Erard upright which has an astonishing lively tone and action. I was wondering if anyone could age the instrument from this serial no. 89450. Looking forward to have the piano tuned and perhaps finding out how old this lovely instrument.

Regards

Stimmy13

[Bill Kibby]

The number suggests 1905, but pianos often have several numbers, and without photos, it is impossible to know if this is a likely date.

[Phiphi]

Erard ! Erard ! That's for me.

Around 1905, the choice for upright pianos was:

No 5, "demi-oblique", 85 keys, 1.25m high
No 6, "oblique", 85 keys, 1.29m high.
No 7, "oblique", 85 keys, 1.25m high.
No 8, "oblique", 85 keys, 1.32m high.
No 9, "oblique", 88 keys, 1.38m high. This one starts to be noisy.

In Erard terminology, "demi-oblique" means straight strung, but the strings are at an angle., and "oblique" means overstrung. Usually, the "oblique" are strung on a cast iron frame, and the "demi-oblique" on what Erard called a "composite" frame. The latter frame was an assembly of iron bars. In French, it is called now a "cadre serrurier". I don't know the English name, but I am sure that someone can help.

I think that the identification should be easy.

[Bill Kibby]

Erard uprights had, on the whole, been oblique strung for a long time, this did not mean overstrung, but diagonal, in the same way the term is still used.

Certainly, Demi-oblique pianos by Pleyel were not vertical-strung, they were just less oblique than the obliques, like semi-oblique pianos are.

Composite frames are known in England as "composite frames".

[pascale 1965]

Et moi je vais bientôt récupérer un ERARD n°87123, je pense aussi qu'il est de 1905 mais comment en être sûre ?
Merci !

[Bill Kibby]

Je m'apologise, je parle Francais comme une vache espagnol.

The number is probably nearer 1904, but it is pointless trying to pin down piano dates too precisely.

[Phiphi]

Actually, I had a second look at this Erard book, and the information about the uprights very confusing.

I initially thought that "cordes demi-obliques" would be parallel, and that "cordes obliques" would be overstrung. But it looks that some "demi-obliques" were overstrung. Same thing with the frames, they use "cadre en fer" for a cast frame, but also for a composite frame. What I don't know is if the composite frame of the straight-strung pianos includes the wrest plank being covered . I initially thought that it was entirely made of iron bars joined together, and that the wrest plank was covered, except for older pianos. Now, I am not so sure. The Erard terminology is a bit of a mess. You cannot get anything simples with the French !

Now, for Pascale:
Ce piano est-il droit ou a queue ? A cordes paralleles ou croisees ? Quelle est sa longueur ?

[Bill Kibby]

"Fer", of course, means iron, and both are iron. A composite frame is composed of separate parts, often simple straight bars, bolted or welded together. This is unlikely to cover the wrestplank, it would not be thin enough usually. Often, in antique pianos, the wrestplank is covered with a thin layer of brass, or just a cross-ply of wood. Semi-oblique or demi-oblique could mean that some of the strings are not oblique, in other words overstringing, but that is not its usual meaning. Oblique should mean diagonal. Cordes croisees (forgive my typing) should mean two sections crossing, like Pape's patent of 1828.

It is important to realise that you are reading a book written by somebody about Erards, not reading Erards' own information. Many books are written by people who have no experience of pianos. A lot of the misinformation about piano history has arisen from people writing books and phrasing things badly, or misquoting information, or quoting other authors who got it wrong. I have written to authors, challenging statements they made, and the usual answer is that they read it somewhere else, and took it to be correct. Sometimes, there is a whole chain of people quoting previous authors. This applies especially to serial number dates. Nobody in the world is immune to misinformation, and websites often make it worse by spreading misinformation so rapidly. I spend a lot of my time finding original unadulterated information, but even that will have human errors.

[pascale1965]

Cet Erard n°87123 est une demi-queue, longueur 212, à cordes parallèles ! Merci.

[Phiphi]

These information from the book are direct transcripts from Erard's price list. My feeling is that the vocabulary regarding piano design was not completely fixed yet. Erard's Price lists from later years (1917 onwards) were much clearer. To validate my statement, we need to ask someone who was in the piano trade in the early years of the XXth century. Up to you, Bill !

For Pauline,
This No 1 is a very nice piano, typically Erard, with a very rich tone, and deep basses. The smaller 185cm (nicknamed "3 bars") is also good, but a bit too short for the bass strings.
Le meme en Francais:
C'est un tres bon piano, typiquement Erard, avec un timbre riche et des basses profondes. Le petit modele de 185cm est aussi Bon, mais manque de longueur pour les basses.
Etes-vous en France ou en Angleterre ?

[Bill Kibby]

The terminology, vocabulary or nomenclature is not standard, and has never been, in spite of many people's efforts.