Encourage or not ?

Johnkie · Post by **Johnkie** » 10 Oct 2011, 11:56

Just wondering what other feel about encouraging non-trained "tuners". An example of which is clearly demonstrated by following this link :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gQ-ZInLsF4

joe · Post by **joe** » 10 Oct 2011, 13:10

Would say the link is self evident,get a pro.

D.J.Smith · Post by **D.J.Smith** » 10 Oct 2011, 13:18

Gordon Bennett. You'd think he would at least get the correct tools. Novel technique too, bending pins instead of turning them.

Johnkie · Post by **Johnkie** » 10 Oct 2011, 13:54

Thank the Lord that you think the same ....this guy does all sorts of crazy things, and is a regular poster on the American site. At first I thought his videos were some kind of joke, but when the penny dropped that they weren't, I posted a comment stating that I thought he should wear a stetson and a pair of six-guns! There does appear to be quite a few "Tuner/Techs" on the American site that think he should be applauded for doing what he does - stating that where he lives, money is lacking and people just have to make do and mend. Maybe I'm being a little too overboard and slightly un-kind by being so harsh .... but I would have thought that most professionals would have had exactly the same reaction as myself.

Doesn't do much for the reputation of the profession for the general piano playing public to see this kind of thing accepted on piano forums though

D.J.Smith · Post by **D.J.Smith** » 10 Oct 2011, 15:08

Being hard-up is no excuse for not buying the correct tools. A perfectly servicable set of regulating/tuning tools can be bought direct from China on the internet for about £200. I know they are not the best quality [ I have a set ], but they do the job.

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 10 Oct 2011, 15:45

its a 1980 Russian pianos you can turn them pins with your teeth, they are that loose. Mind you he need to watch the Bass the strings they run across the pins and tend to snap

Barrie

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 11 Oct 2011, 16:06

Seen the key-cleaning one? How can you make a video lasting six and a quarter minutes out of 'Clean greasy keys with vodka on a bit of rag'??

sussexpianos · Post by **sussexpianos** » 11 Oct 2011, 17:03

There are some interesting techi stuff on the site but mostly its a joke. I had a customer in last month, bought a lever on ebay(China) but it won't fit the tuning pins! I had to laugh as I had quoted him to come a tune it but he spent the money buying a lever, which is usless. He even tried to sell it to me! It was very light and will probably break on a new piano. Mind you, I did shear off the head of my Steinway pattern lever the other month, I had that at college!

NewAge · Post by **NewAge** » 11 Oct 2011, 21:32

Gill the Piano wrote:Seen the key-cleaning one? How can you make a video lasting six and a quarter minutes out of 'Clean greasy keys with vodka on a bit of rag'??

This one caught my eye, but I'm still trying to fathom out whether he means 'naked' or 'knackered' piano.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr9g0zH7 ... re=related

If nothing else there's certainly no lack of enthusiasm there.
When I was a young kid I would have been over the moon if our tuner had shown me how to dismantle the piano. Don't think Dad would have approved though - with or without a share of vodka.

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 11 Oct 2011, 22:04

the finished job
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZMSMV4I ... re=related

I wonder how this guy is getting after a year
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taLWfNXREU4

Hmm he is advertising
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4EYuwY5 ... er&list=UL

D.J.Smith · Post by **D.J.Smith** » 12 Oct 2011, 10:07

Sussex.

Your customer was unlucky. My chinese hammer is substantial, with a solid rosewood handle, works very well.

Even the best tips don't fit if they are the wrong size for the particular pin, whether from China or F&N. Perhaps all he needed was the correct size tip ? Mind you, if he didn't realise that, I wonder if he was competent to tune.

BTW, a hammer bought from a UK supplier is probably made in China anyway !

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 12 Oct 2011, 11:41

D.J.Smith wrote:

BTW, a hammer bought from a UK supplier is probably made in China anyway !

With F&N some are made in the UK and some are indeed made in China. The Steinway type are made in the UK including the heads

Barrie,

Withindale · Post by **Withindale** » 14 Oct 2011, 21:35

Piano Advice poster wrote:Gordon Bennett. You'd think he would at least get the correct tools. Novel technique too, bending pins instead of turning them.

Piano World poster wrote:The first step in helping Max would be better equipment. If there was some way to set up an account with Frank's PianoSupplies.com for Max to use I will put in the first $50.

Piano World poster wrote:Max did send me his address and I will mail him a tuning lever plus some other things. Pre-paying excise duty.Your suggestion is brilliant. Even though we often behave like a loose confederation of warring tribes, we can unite to help a colleague.

Colin Nicholson · Post by **Colin Nicholson** » 15 Oct 2011, 09:43

What a joke!!!! ...... cowboy at work!
I couldn't believe he was using a plectrum on the end of a bit of string.... WOW!!,
and loved the 1/2 inch drive socket set & extension bar!!!!.... I've got one of those, but didn't realise instead of removing wheel nuts, I could tune a piano!!!!

Reckon Matt Allwright would have a field day here!!

Withindale · Post by **Withindale** » 15 Oct 2011, 10:02

Colin Nicholson wrote:What a joke!!!!

Piano World poster wrote:
Piano World poster wrote: Is he bending the pins to tune, or is there a rotary component I'm missing?
Yes, there is a rotary component, and he is also bending the pins to tune. Many of us have seen skilful tuners get that last 2 cents by deliberately 'lifting' the pin. I learned this from a Japanese Master Tech years ago. I spent a week with him, both of us tuning our respective employers' pianos for a piano competition. Of course you have to know precicely where the pin is from a combined torque and flagpole standpoint and therein lies the skill. That, plus experience, years of it. It looks like Max has discovered this by himself.

mdw · Post by **mdw** » 16 Oct 2011, 09:21

Why is there no pride in this trade. If you want to be a tuner go get a proper training and learn to be a tuner. If you want to be a dealer get a proper tech training. We as qualified tuner techs should not be encouraging all these bodgers be they dealers or tuners. It seems to be the default position for anyone whos failed at another job, oh I can play therefore I will be a piano expert, tuner, mover or seller. I have no sympathy for anyone who buys the cheapest piano they can and then has problems.

D.J.Smith · Post by **D.J.Smith** » 16 Oct 2011, 10:01

mdw :

You're right about bodgers and professionals. Unfortunately it is very difficult for a customer to determine one from the other, until it's too late.

The cheapest deal could still be the best. A high price is no guarantee of quality or value. The piano trade seems to be a haven for the unscrupulous and dishonest.

Withindale · Post by **Withindale** » 16 Oct 2011, 11:05

Johnkie wrote:Just wondering what other feel about encouraging non-trained "tuners".

What is your opinion after reading the Piano World thread?

Maximillian's opening comment was "Tuning a piano with mediator I use when tuning of piano with mediator. Such way allows to search for the sounds of the necessary height without shim and laying of the tape. I listen harmonic assonance and intervals".

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 16 Oct 2011, 11:52

mdw wrote:Why is there no pride in this trade. If you want to be a tuner go get a proper training and learn to be a tuner. If you want to be a dealer get a proper tech training. We as qualified tuner techs should not be encouraging all these bodgers be they dealers or tuners. It seems to be the default position for anyone whos failed at another job, oh I can play therefore I will be a piano expert, tuner, mover or seller. I have no sympathy for anyone who buys the cheapest piano they can and then has problems.

A tad harsh - I would have thought sales and accounting training would be more useful to a dealer, some of the more successful piano retailers in the UK have not got a clue what's inside a piano, why! should they, they are selling them not fixing them.

The piano movers: There I do have empathy as some the big one have invested a lot of money in training and equipment. The one man and a van come a along and quotes peanuts. However, some of our big player started off as one man and a van.

As to tuners define "proper training" Newark is not an option for all - and what it taut now, is not as in-depth as what was show in the 70s. So I was told, but having never been to Newark can't say if this is true or not. As to College training to me its good at teaching you the basics, but then you go out and train and learn we have too many who have left with the attitude "that it, I'am a pro and know it all " There are some very good tuners out there who never seen the inside of a College

In the end it all down to personal ethics if you have any or not and the desire to improve your skills on how you conduct your business, what ever it is .

Barrie

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 16 Oct 2011, 12:02

Withindale wrote:
Johnkie wrote:Just wondering what other feel about encouraging non-trained "tuners".
What is your opinion after reading the Piano World thread?

Maximillian's opening comment was "Tuning a piano with mediator I use when tuning of piano with mediator. Such way allows to search for the sounds of the necessary height without shim and laying of the tape. I listen harmonic assonance and intervals".

His mentor need training as well

I don't no if you renumber a program called "That's Life" They had a piano tuner on there rogue trades man section He used Vim to clean the action and 3in1 oil on the centres this guy was a complete nuttier, but after the program he advertised "Have your piano tuned as seen on That's Life " he could not cope with the work are we in danger of doing the same with this guy.

Barrie,

Withindale · Post by **Withindale** » 16 Oct 2011, 12:19

D.J.Smith wrote:mdw: You're right about bodgers and professionals. Unfortunately it is very difficult for a customer to determine one from the other, until it's too late.

The cheapest deal could still be the best. A high price is no guarantee of quality or value. The piano trade seems to be a haven for the unscrupulous and dishonest.

From the pianist's point of view:

1. Never let a tuner or a technician near your piano until you have established their credentials.

2. Buy a new, used or restored piano from a reputable dealer or privately only after consulting your tuner or technician.

3. For the cheapest deal, do your research; find a good, unrestored, moderately used piano privately, leaving tuning and other technical work to trusted professionals. If you have the time and inclination learn to do basic regulation for yourself.

I followed the third route. Dealers would have had no option but to refinish the case, replace the hammers and damper felts, and possibly re-pin. All of this necessary for them to offer a marketable instrument (but unnecessary for me). At best this would have added thousands to the price. At worst poor materials and workmanship would have degraded the instrument and, in my case, possibly not fixed a hidden problem with action alignment.

Caveat emptor.

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 16 Oct 2011, 15:42

Barrie Heaton wrote: I don't no if you renumber a program called "That's Life" They had a piano tuner on there rogue trades man section He used Vim to clean the action and 3in1 oil on the centres this guy was a complete nuttier, but after the program he advertised "Have your piano tuned as seen on That's Life " he could not cope with the work are we in danger of doing the same with this guy.

Barrie,

Professor (!) Rose, I believe! Worked around Kent.

rxd · Post by **rxd** » 16 Oct 2011, 15:54

STOP! STOP! Already.

This sounds like the rabble baying for blood!!!!.

Is this a trait of 'college trained' people???

Shakespeare wrote about protesting too much and went on to say how much it is evidence of low self esteem to have to put down another in order for a person to feel secure about themselves. I am told this is a British trait. I haven't found it so until this. Am I mixing with the wrong sort?

What's to be so elitist about?

There are some of us who do manufacturers guarantee work around the country, Usually after a few attempts at a fix have been made by locals.... Not saying anything, just drawing in the sand with a stick, for those to whom this is not an obscure reference.

Do any of you get it yet? (I did hear a couple of still, small voices)

Max is in Kazakhstan. I have not been there but I have found myself traveling in similar places. There's nothing there. He is all there is and he is working with what he has got. I have done some research and find that even to send him more suitable tools is full of pitfalls once they reach his countrys' borders with customs and excise problems, he would have to travel miles to claim them and pay duties. This he cannot do, for many reasons.

Is anybody from here going that way who could take him some tools that I can supply??

Anybody here know anything about Kazakhstan customs and excise?

Anybody want to help a fellow human being in any way?

I will contact the Kazakhstan Embassy tomorrow to see what can be done. I hope they can at least figure the duties so I can prepay. or, at best, get some stuff delivered in the diplomatic bag.

Or would you prefer for me to ask the Embassy to have him cease and desist????

Now you can start pelting your vile bile at me!!!!!

Silverwood Pianos · Post by **Silverwood Pianos** » 16 Oct 2011, 16:00

Hello Johnkie,
I would agree with you that the fellow in Kazakhstan needs better equipment and skill training.

From my point of view Max appears to be self taught; he has learned to make do with the tools he has and the skill set he has for the moment.
The most positive thing I see is the fact that this person truly wants to help people in his country keep their pianos in playable shape to continue to learn the joy of music.

There is a certain amount of bravery for him to show his tools and skills set and risk the criticisms he has encountered both here and on the American forum.

In an industry where the acoustic instrument sales are in a downward trend,I believe it behooves all of us to try and elevate his skills along with his tool upgrades. By doing so we all assist the music industry and the musical trades component of that.

Remember that this fellow is in a country which for a long time had a paternalistic government controls which only allowed them certain knowledge, skill set and tools. Now the recently discovered freedoms does not necessarily come the funding for the people of that country to investigate those freedoms

dancarney · Post by **dancarney** » 16 Oct 2011, 16:25

rxd, I have some info that might facilitate the transpiration of tuning tools...

Check your inbox @ Piano world.

Dan

D.J.Smith · Post by **D.J.Smith** » 16 Oct 2011, 17:31

rxd:

My comment re bodgers/professionals was directed at the UK trade. I get the impression you agree ?

rxd · Post by **rxd** » 16 Oct 2011, 18:26

D.J.Smith wrote:rxd:

My comment re bodgers/professionals was directed at the UK trade. I get the impression you agree ?

I said what I said.

I was careful not to indulge in name-calling since that would make me guilty of the very thing I speak out against.

I did not read anything in great detail, just got a general drift of what was happening.

By the way, as i'm sure you know, a 'Bodger' is a very skilled woodsman who spends his time out in the open air turning chair legs for the craftsmen who make chairs.
He, too, works with tools mainly of his own devising. I took the time to partially learn that skill when I chose to work at an open air museum in Virginia. Just enough to gain a great respect for those who did this work.
What a great way to live, Eh?

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 16 Oct 2011, 19:13

rxd wrote:
Max is in Kazakhstan. I have not been there but I have found myself traveling in similar places. There's nothing there. He is all there is and he is working with what he has got. I have done some research and find that even to send him more suitable tools is full of pitfalls once they reach his countrys' borders with customs and excise problems, he would have to travel miles to claim them and pay duties. This he cannot do, for many reasons.

Now you can start pelting your vile bile at me!!!!!

Must admit I thought he was in the US. However, what about the guys out in that part of the world that can tune and try make a living its a very large country with 15.7 million there must be some

Barrie,

mdw · Post by **mdw** » 16 Oct 2011, 19:47

rxd wrote:Shakespeare wrote about protesting too much and went on to say how much it is evidence of low self esteem to have to put down another in order for a person to feel secure about themselves. I am told this is a British trait. I haven't found it so until this. Am I mixing with the wrong sort?

What's to be so elitist about?

Why is it classed as elitist to want to see the job done correctly and whats wrong with that? Ive no problem with people wanting to become piano tuners, techs , dealers but get a propper training first so you know what you are talking about.

I spent 3 years full time training at Newark and then the last 27 years in this trade as a tuner tech dealer so I probably know a little about pianos.
Perhaps you want to tag along next time next time im asked to tune a piano supplied by our local cowboy. I get pencils instead of hammer shanks, rubber bands instead of butt springs, tapes and correct centres and the coup de gras a staple gun used to do a soundboard repair. I then have to tell the customer that the pile of junk they have paid £500 for should be scrapped. And people fall for this tosh time after time.

You would be a bit miffed if the mechanic who worked on your £40k car wasnt properly trained so whats so wrong with a trained tuner working on or moving your £40k piano. The bloke in Kazakhstan has an excuse but there are quite a few of his type on the uk which is where my comments are aimed.

Ps i am entirely happy with my sense of security, although thanks for your concern

.

Withindale · Post by **Withindale** » 16 Oct 2011, 20:41

rxd wrote:Max is in Kazakhstan. I have not been there but I have found myself traveling in similar places. There's nothing there.

I have been to Kazakhstan, twice, to an industrial town several hours driving across the steppe from Astana the capital where the money is. So I can tell you RXD and Silverwood Pianos are spot on. People have been left to their own devices for years. Literally in the Soviet era when some were kicked out of trains and told to start digging. Who is going to set up classes for tuners and technicians to service old Russian pianos out there?

Withindale · Post by **Withindale** » 16 Oct 2011, 21:11

mdw wrote:I spent 3 years full time training at Newark and then the last 27 years in this trade as a tuner tech dealer so I probably know a little about pianos. Perhaps you want to tag along next time next time im asked to tune a piano supplied by our local cowboy. I get pencils instead of hammer shanks, rubber bands instead of butt springs, tapes and correct centres and the coup de gras a staple gun used to do a soundboard repair. I then have to tell the customer that the pile of junk they have paid £500 for should be scrapped. And people fall for this tosh time after time.

A suggestion for next time. Start educating the public. Take you camera along, snap the horrors, and publish them here under "Pianos - Good Bad and Ugly" or something. Get others to do the same, include some "before" and "after" success stories, and the message will start to get across. Not just fancy restorations but interesting examples of pianos where a bit of regulation makes all the difference. That might show people what to look for and promote your services at the same time.

Johnkie · Post by **Johnkie** » 16 Oct 2011, 23:23

My original post was prompted by a collection of videos showing someone working in ways that at first, I thought were complete spoofs. Having realised that this guy was in fact, being serious, I became seriously concerned about how many professional tuner/technicians (mostly on the American piano site) thought his methods were tolerable given that fact that he was "doing his best bearing in mind his personal circumstances".

Whilst undoubtedly commendable that some feel inclined to offer this guy help by offering to furnish tools and offer advice, the real problem remains that he thinks he is doing a good job. Furthermore, I find it amazing that some have the gall to criticise those of us that are un-willing to tolerate such malpractice, and feel justified in lambasting those who care about the standard of workmanship within our profession.

This guy should be told that his work is not good, and that he really should not profess to be a tuner/technician ..... until he has the knowledge, skill, and sufficient experience that should rightfully be expected.

He may well be a great guy, deserving more than life in his country allows, and is doing no wrong in trying to help those that are prepared to let him loose on their instruments .... but he can only be regarded as someone that is trying his best to help, and not someone who is either a tuner or technician.

Yes indeed there are many bad examples within our profession, beit UK, American, or anywhere else in the world, but that should never be accepted by those that actually care about the professional standing within our industry.

Would you let this guy operate on your clients instrument ? If the answer is anything other than NO ... then I would hang my head in shame at the thought.

I have given up on the site I mentioned ... finding it riddled with rudeness and bullying by a small core of people that consider themselves expert, when in fact the ones with the loudest voices are often the ones that have the largest male appendages!

Before giving up though.... I did express my admiration, and salute those whom were shining examples of what should be expected.

rxd · Post by **rxd** » 17 Oct 2011, 10:58

I have observed changes in Max over the few months of his posting. His latest posts indicate that he wants to be helped. This would not have happened if he had been summarily kicked aside without a fair hearing. Were it not for what has happened here, well, not here, but on the American site, he would be innocently going on his way just like Professor Rose whom nobody could stop because nobody reached out, everybody ridiculed instead. (I was living in Beckenham in Roses' days, right in his patch but our paths never crossed). He would have been an interesting chap to have a beer with, don't you think?
Would I 'let' (?) my clients employ this man? That's purely hypethetical. I would strongly advise against it. But would I stand in their doorway and physically bar his entry? That would be the ultimate control freak.

I once hired a tuner for a piano store, well, his audition tuning was quite scruffy so I asked him if he could do a cleaner tuning and he presented me with a fine, solid tuning so I hired him on 3 months trial ... He never did a clean tuning after that! I thought I had made the mistake of a lifetime. When the 3 months was up, he had developed his own following and was making money for the company. The national director had a business degree from a prestigeous university and the branch manager at this store (in a major city) was a vice president and the principal negotiator and accountant for this company. I was highly praised for my hiring skills. It left me thinking, what do I know?. I still don't know if there was a method to his madness of everything was completely random.
Every tuning department had it's stories about the new tuner who has to go back to destroy their careful unisons to satisfy a particular customer.

There was a preacher who messed with pianos in one town. It was more cost effective to have me correct his unnecessary work on new pianos from time to time because he brought so much sales business to the store.

I believe Max would benefit from training where others might not. . There is a music conservatory in Kz. It is 3600 miles away!!(big country) Moscow is closer but not much. While it is hard to believe from our point of view that in a town as large as Max's, There has to be somewhere closer where there would be a knowlegable piano tuner to approach for advice, maybe not. There isn't much opportunity for training left even here and we had a thriving piano industry not that long ago, Kazakhstan had no such thing.

This thread, if nothing else, has made us all learn a little, think a little and air some different opinions and feelings. Always a good thing.

Thank you.

Johnkie · Post by **Johnkie** » 17 Oct 2011, 12:28

There are clearly two points of view as to whether Max should be regarded as a cowboy or saint! Speaking as a person that has undergone 5 years training and a subsequent 41 years on the road, I have seen many terrible examples of "tuner / technicians" who have woken up one morning and suddenly thought that they could make a living passing themselves off as such. Professor Rose ( I knew all about him when I was training in London ) - The one that went around oiling actions, inserting rubber bands and drawing pins everywhere ... leaving a trail of destruction behind !

The general public have a right to expect a person trading as a tuner has the skills to do a decent ( no always perfect I'll grant you ) job. The example set by this guy Max shows quite clearly that he has no such skill .... yet! This section of the forum is all about Piano Advice, and generally a good place to discuss all manner of problems related to pianos. It is open to everyone and therefore a prime location for people like Max to post links to his videos for others to view. Anyone wishing to enter this trade may be lead to believe that his methods "must be correct" because they are examples given on a piano forum.

My main gripe originally was because his posts and video links were posted on the "Piano Tuner and Technicians" area of the American site - somewhere that one would expect only be open to qualified and accepted Tuner/Technicians to post. I therefore commented, thinking it to be a total wind up!

I'm not interested in whether a bad tuner can bring in more money, and therefore deemed "good for business" - I'm clearly on the side of the customer getting a professional and good quality service. Perhaps my morals are set too high ... I admit that I am not a very good businessman, but care very much about giving a good service for a reasonable price.

As for Max .... Well it would seem that he has a good heart, and aspires to become part of the piano tuning world, but is unable to undertake suitable training using the necessary tools ... that is indeed, unfortunate, but there again, most people would wish at sometime in their lives to be able to do something new, and without the wherewith all sadly can't ! If he is to succeed he needs the necessary competencies and tools first ... until that time ... he has no place messing about with oil, t-bar extension socket sets, promoting himself as a Tuner / Tech.

rxd · Post by **rxd** » 17 Oct 2011, 15:00

Johnkie,
I basically agree, however, The need to purify either ones profession or ones race is not in itself a sign of moral superiority as history has proven.

It is not either/or, guilty/innocent. A scenario where everyone wins is an ideal to aim for. Culturally, the west has an us/them mentality we even often define ourselves by what we are not so a win- win situation is a hard one to grasp. Americans, both Yanks and Feds, are getting it.

All this muckraking will not improve the situation for Max or his customers. We all like to feel a little self righteous moral indignation from time to time and that's all that this is accomplishing.

I have always sensed there is something we are not seeing here. I have seen maverick operators exist alongside more traditional operators. Professor Rose is an example. Ridiculing him only made him more successful. If he had operated in a cultural backwater, would it be any different?

Max has told us about himself and living in a town of 300,000, I find it hard to believe he is in a cultural backwater but I don't know Kz. I have friends in a better position to look into this. Where do the techs at the Conservatory get their tools, or do they use socket sets too? That last statement is not intended as a cruel joke, I am quite serious. I simply don't know.

Enough for now. I'll keep you posted.

I'll leave it there for now

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 17 Oct 2011, 20:37

rxd wrote:Johnkie,
Where do the techs at the Conservatory get their tools, or do they use socket sets too? That last statement is not intended as a cruel joke, I am quite serious. I simply don't know.

Its not the tools that are important its what you do with them that is.

Ever seen an impact tuning leaver to me that is just as odd as using a socket set, but if it works for you then OK.

Barrie

rxd · Post by **rxd** » 18 Oct 2011, 08:56

I agree, Barrie,
Max tells us (at least as far as I can make out the prose style of his computer translation) he has a square tapered socket and finds the 8 (I assume star shaped) sided difficult.

I borrowed an impact lever for a day on one of those mammoth sales they have in America where they sell as many as 250 pianos over a long weekend and have 3 tuners in the same huge room (drill hall or hotel ballroom) preping them. (I'll tell you about all that if anyone's interested).
I persevered all day but I went back to my staid old ways.

Much the same effect can be had by using a No.3 or 4 size tip on a No.2 pin in such a way as to get about 10-15 degrees rotational play without marring the pin. Use a heavy lever or extend so that most of the weight is at the end. Looks ungainly, but you'll get the idea, the original uses a more compact weight. Hold the tool at the tip, right over the tuning pin, 'throwing' the tool using the weight of the handle to move the pin in small increments, theoretically eliminating flagpoling. Seems to work best on uprights.

Barrie, I just realised this is the on the public side of the forum. Use your magic to move it if you think necessary.

I found it interesting that you also were taught to use a T hammer so relatively recently(!). Any further input from yourself or the rest of the forum would hold my attention.

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 18 Oct 2011, 20:24

rxd wrote:

Much the same effect can be had by using a No.3 or 4 size tip on a No.2 pin in such a way as to get about 10-15 degrees rotational play without marring the pin. Use a heavy lever or extend so that most of the weight is at the end. Looks ungainly, but you'll get the idea, the original uses a more compact weight. Hold the tool at the tip, right over the tuning pin, 'throwing' the tool using the weight of the handle to move the pin in small increments, theoretically eliminating flagpoling. Seems to work best on uprights.

Flagpoling can be useful on pianos with lots of drag and you know the pin is set but the string is not However, excessive Flagpoling can bend the pin.

rxd wrote:
I found it interesting that you also were taught to use a T hammer so relatively recently(!). Any further input from yourself or the rest of the forum would hold my attention.

That was back in the 70s it was to build up your squeeze technique and get a feel for the pin. Which when you see some of the demo on Youtube you wonder how they will get to feel the pin with a big clunky lever to start with, yes uses one later on, on pianos with very tight pins I still use a T hammer on some vintage pianos I still tune.

On the impact lever, it seems to be more suited to tuners who use ETD as they are the only ones I have seen using them.

The carbon fibre levers look interesting if not a bit on the expensive side I still have my Steinway lever from the 70s few new heads over the years I have a master leaver but that one only comes out if I have a piano with very stiff pins.

Barrie,

Withindale · Post by **Withindale** » 19 Oct 2011, 16:53

From Maximillyan on Pianoworld:

Dear tech. of piano, I happy for the activity to the discussions. Critical and fair assessment of forced me to work and learn from mistakes. I get a lot of useful information and I thank you for your research about T-hammer. For me the surprise controversy on this subject not only to our forum, but English http://www.piano-tuners.org/piano-forum ... f=3&t=9479
This is a great honor for me. I publish their own T-hammers and the scheme drawing (mm). You may need to make a order repair T-hammer. If you have non-standard pin, need to forge this pin (hot press, smithy) I am attaching a chart-drawing and photo T-hammers http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/maxim-tuner/album/170673

Its video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkKwpV_3HXI. Maybe someone will need it.

Yours Maximillyan

maxim_tuner · Post by **maxim_tuner** » 19 Oct 2011, 17:12

Barrie Heaton wrote:
rxd wrote:
rxd wrote:I still use a T hammer on some vintage pianos I still tune. Barrie,

I am Maximillyan,my respect English Forum and all techs. I get a lot of useful information and I thank you for your research about T-hammer. Greets & Thanks for Barrie Heaton.
Yours Maximillyan

Withindale · Post by **Withindale** » 19 Oct 2011, 18:45

Maximillyan wrote: If you have non-standard pin, need to forge this pin (hot press, smithy) I am attaching a chart-drawing and photo T-hammers http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/maxim-tuner/album/170673

Now you bodgers can make your own tools.

rxd · Post by **rxd** » 20 Oct 2011, 20:16

Withindale wrote:
Maximillyan wrote: If you have non-standard pin, need to forge this pin (hot press, smithy) I am attaching a chart-drawing and photo T-hammers http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/maxim-tuner/album/170673
Now you bodgers can make your own tools.

I am having trouble understanding your remark.

Factory apprentices of old started by making their own tools. (after sweeping up and learning to make a cup of tea that satisfied everyones taste).

I have made many of the tools I use. I used to make tools to give away to visiting technicians. The storeboughten tools I have, have been adapted to my specific requirements.

My graduate trainee last year made a usable papps wedge and case for it. She made a good job of it too.

A few posts back, I defined the word 'bodger' for someone else.

Who exactly are 'you bodgers'?

maxim_tuner · Post by **maxim_tuner** » 21 Oct 2011, 04:12

rxd wrote:
Withindale wrote:
Maximillyan wrote: If you have non-standard pin, need to forge this pin (hot press, smithy) I am attaching a chart-drawing and photo T-hammers http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/maxim-tuner/album/170673
Now you bodgers can make your own tools.
A few posts back, I defined the word 'bodger' for someone else.
Who exactly are 'you bodgers'?

Can be I and had a no right to speak in English pianoforte's forum about homemade T-hammer. However I only advise to make such T-hammers for exclusive type of the job. When in this there is special need. I do not obtrude the gentlemenof the barbarous ways of the repair and tuning piano. I also incomprehensible "bodger" This there is well or bad ? Respectfully yours, maxim_tuner

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 21 Oct 2011, 20:40

maxim_tuner wrote: Can be I and had a no right to speak in English pianoforte's forum about homemade T-hammer. However I only advise to make such T-hammers for exclusive type of the job. When in this there is special need. I do not obtrude the gentlemenof the barbarous ways of the repair and tuning piano. I also incomprehensible "bodger" This there is well or bad ? Respectfully yours, maxim_tuner

No you are OK to speak as much as you like

Barrie

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 21 Oct 2011, 20:46

Withindale wrote:From Maximillyan on Pianoworld:

Dear tech. of piano, I happy for the activity to the discussions. Critical and fair assessment of forced me to work and learn from mistakes. I get a lot of useful information and I thank you for your research about T-hammer.
Yours Maximillyan

This is the T-Hammer I use its got a star head I will take some photos next week of how to hold one as the way you are holding it you will not have good control

Barrie

Withindale · Post by **Withindale** » 21 Oct 2011, 22:32

rxd wrote:
Withindale wrote:
Maximillyan wrote: If you have non-standard pin, need to forge this pin (hot press, smithy) I am attaching a chart-drawing and photo T-hammers http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/maxim-tuner/album/170673
Now you bodgers can make your own tools.
I am having trouble understanding your remark.

Factory apprentices of old started by making their own tools. (after sweeping up and learning to make a cup of tea that satisfied everyones taste).

I have made many of the tools I use. I used to make tools to give away to visiting technicians. The storeboughten tools I have, have been adapted to my specific requirements.

My graduate trainee last year made a usable papps wedge and case for it. She made a good job of it too.

A few posts back, I defined the word 'bodger' for someone else.

Who exactly are 'you bodgers'?

Rxd

"You bodgers" are botchers who should not be tuning pianos with inappropriate tools. There is a certain irony in the context of this thread when one of them encourages the rest (and provides a drawing) to get their own made at the local smithy.

Even my copy of the Oxford Dictionary says bodgers are synonymous with botchers and is unaware of the craftsmen you mentioned so appositely. I used the word as in common parlance.

I imagined the bodgers of High Wycombe and Virginia would have no objection making their own tools if they wished to turn to tuning pianos. From what you say they will know exactly whom to ask for advice!

When it comes to tuning, I am total botcher. It only took me a few seconds to realise it's easier to feel a cheap K & M lever flexing than the pin moving. I wonder if Max's tools used as T hammers would give a better feel. Maybe the current discussions here and on Pianoworld will encourage me to become a bodger.

Come to think of it Flanders had something to say about bodgers with Swann on the piano;

So treat the Rhinoceros as your friend
Though he looks a fearsome sight,
He amply justifies his end
Because his means are right;
And ask yourself, would you do as well
Fulfilling long-felt wants,
If nature had endowed you with
A Bodger on your bonce?

Yes, a Bodger on your bonce?
A Bodger on your bonce?
If nature had endowed you with
A Bodger on your bonce?
A Bodger on your bonce?
A Bodger on your bonce?

maxim_tuner · Post by **maxim_tuner** » 22 Oct 2011, 09:00

Now you bodgers can make your own tools.[/quote]Who exactly are 'you bodgers'?[/quote]Maybe the current discussions here and on Pianoworld will encourage me to become a bodger.[/quote]
Dear forum users and techs of piano, if I understand correctly marked pxq explanation of the word "bodger" is not offensive to me. I would say it's good word for me. In translate in Russian it sounds: "docka" ДОКА the equivalent of the master, creating something with their hands. He uses instruments made with his own hands

Withindale · Post by **Withindale** » 22 Oct 2011, 16:31

maxim_tuner wrote:Dear forum users and techs of piano, if I understand correctly marked pxq explanation of the word "bodger" is not offensive to me. I would say it's good word for me. In translate in Russian it sounds: "docka" ДОКА the equivalent of the master, creating something with their hands. He uses instruments made with his own hands

Maxim

Yes, you are right. In England a "bodger" used to make chairs out in the forest. Here is a link to an article about the last bodger http://www.stuartking.co.uk/index.php/s ... r-bodgers/ with some pictures. The chairs they made last a very long time.

A "botcher" is someone who does bad work. Good piano tuners in England and North America think some piano technicians are "botchers". It is the same in every trade and profession; "botchers" can give everyone a bad reputation.

Rxd is a very good piano tuner and technician. He makes some of his own tools, and he also learnt to be a bodger when he was in Virginia. Barrie, Johnkie and the others are also very experienced piano tuners.

NewAge · Post by **NewAge** » 22 Oct 2011, 22:23

Withindale wrote:
Come to think of it Flanders had something to say about bodgers with Swann on the piano;

So treat the Rhinoceros as your friend
Though he looks a fearsome sight,
He amply justifies his end
Because his means are right;
And ask yourself, would you do as well
Fulfilling long-felt wants,
If nature had endowed you with
A Bodger on your bonce?

Yes, a Bodger on your bonce?
A Bodger on your bonce?
If nature had endowed you with
A Bodger on your bonce?
A Bodger on your bonce?
A Bodger on your bonce?

I hope Max doesn't try and translate this to Kazakh or Russian! It would turn out as utter nonsense no doubt......

Withindale · Post by **Withindale** » 23 Oct 2011, 16:06

NewAge wrote:I hope Max doesn't try and translate this to Kazakh or Russian! It would turn out as utter nonsense no doubt......

Mary reminded me that Donald Swann sang the second verse of the Hippopotamus song in Russian while playing the piano to improve cultural relations - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjnOj9O16_I