Hölling and Spangenberg Double Wing Grand Piano

[Thomas Allen]

Hello,

I have a Hölling and Spangenberg double wing grand piano made in Zeitz, Germany, in 1869. The piano is absolutely gorgeous, but it doesn't play well (due to its double wing design, the soundboard is split and the action is outdated). I was wondering if there is any more information on this type of piano. I've never heard of a "Hölling and Spangenburg," let alone, a double wing grand piano.

I couldn't make the pictures work, so here are the links for pictures:

http://s392.photobucket.com/albums/pp1/ ... boy/Piano/

[athomik]

http://hoelling-spangenberg.de/pages-eng/index-eng.html might help

[Gill the Piano]

Allison, England made a butterfly grand in the 1910s.

[Bill Kibby]

Flugel is a German word for a wing, and is applied to the normal shape of grand pianos. This one would normally be called a Symmetrical Grand, as made by Ibach and others, in which the curve of the bentside is mirrored on the bass side.

Does the piano have the words double wing printed on it?

Is it spelt Spangenburg or Spangenberg?

Are there any numbers visible inside the top?

What is it that makes you think it was made in 1869? I would have thought it was more like 1880s. The year of manufacture is hardly ever written on the outside of a piano, and it is much more likely that it refers to an exhibition medal received in that year.

[Thomas Allen]

No, the man who sold it to us described it as a "double wing" grand piano. I just thought that was the proper term, but I stand corrected!

My bad. It is spelled "Spangenberg" on the piano. Typo on my part.

There are no numbers anywhere on the exterior of the case or on the top (inside and outside); however, there is a date on the inside of the case under the action. I cannot remember the month (and I really think it would be a bad idea to take out the action to find out!), but the year was 1869. Also, the split soundboard (which causes some serious playing problems), at least to my knowledge, is rarely found in pianos made from 1880 on. I know that the piano cannot be tuned above A-415, the case is rosewood, and the keys are ivory. Other than that, I know absolutely nothing about it.

[Bill Kibby]

You should have no need to apologise. Some people have a habit of stating things as facts which are not true, and I think they have done this to you. The piano would originally have been capable of modern pitch, and the only reason not to raise it is if it is going to break strings or damage that split further. There is no such thing as a piano which cannot be raised above a specific pitch, the tuner decides how far to push it. As for split soundboards, they are not related just to age, and many twentieth-century pianos have them.

[Thomas Allen]

That is very interesting. It never made sense to me why someone would build a piano below standard pitch. Thanks for the clarification!

Really? I was always under the impression that the soundboard had something to do with the lousy sound the piano has. It's a huge, booming sound, but it's not the best. And, I've been told that the split soundboard is the cause by multiple people also. But it really has nothing to do with it?

Also, I don't know if you would know this, but I have a question about the action. Well, it's awful. I know that these pianos are not being made anymore, but is there any way to get it to play like a modern piano? If the action was updated with custom parts (like the original ones), would it play like a functional piano, or is it really just a nice "museum piece" that has no playing potential?

[Bill Kibby]

As always, you are in the hands of whoever is on the spot. I would raise the pitch very gradually, but not every tuner agrees, and some take the easier option to not try.

People often panic unnecessarily, soundboard splits are not as simple as they seem, a hairline crack usually has no effect whatsoever on tone, and may only be a crack in the varnish, but if it starts to open a bit more, the two sides of the split can vibrate against each other, causing horrible rattles. When it opens to the point where the two sides are quite separate, this rattle disappears, but as the split gets wider, it has an increasing effect on tonal quality, usually a very local change near the split.

The state of the strings, hammers and the performance of the action are also major factors in tonal quality. The action is impossible to quantify by internet, you need to get a good technician to quote on the spot, and try to give you an idea what you can expect. I hate the idea that people pay for something without knowing what the end result will be like, but there is little choice if you are attached to the piano. Is there an action maker's name visible?

[Thomas Allen]

I will talk to the tuner the next time he's over about that.

I think the way I worded it was a bit confusing. By "split soundboard," I did not mean "cracked" or "broken." I meant that the soundboard was actually made of two separate pieces of wood. In the picture of the piano's interior that was on the link I provided, the second piece starts right where the picture cuts off on the lower right corner. So, there is one piece of the soundboard in the front, and a second piece starts in the back and follows the curve of the etched board that has the pins for the strings. I have never seen a soundboard made out of two pieces of wood until this piano.

We've talked to some technicians, but they have all seemed scared/reluctant when we asked about reconstructing the action. They either said it would cost a small fortune, or said it was impossible. Originally, we were going to get a Bösendorfer, but the price was too high. The Hölling and Spangenberg was purchased over the internet. That was not the best thing we've ever done. We have the most beautiful piano in all of Florida, but it plays awfully. No, the only writing on the piano is the title "Hölling and Spangenberg in Zeits" and the month and year (1869) on the interior of the case underneath the action.

[Bill Kibby]

Sounds intriguing, even if I did waffle on at length about the wrong thing! There have been several pianos with double soundboards of one kind or another, but I can't quite picture this one.

[Thomas Allen]

I actually described it incorrectly. The two pieces are perpendicular to the etched board. I couldn't get a good picture of it from the top (because the etched board and strings are over the boards, and they are REALLY dusty), but here's what it looks like from underneath. The length of the line where they meet is probably about 4 to 4.5 feet. And it's perfectly okay! I am more educated on pianos now than I was before!

http://s392.photobucket.com/albums/pp1/ ... C01126.jpg

(ignore the dehumidifier...)

[Bill Kibby]

Reading through your comments again, in the light of better understanding, I am surprised there is not a number (perhaps in the region of 20000) under the music desk. The date-mark sounds convincing, but I would be very surprised if the piano was as early as 1869. If the action is ever removed, and if you can find the action makers' name and number, I may be able to date this.

I am still struggling to follow how the soundboard is arranged, and why it seems to represent such problems for you. I can't judge from here whether it is the cause of the poor tone.

It will not be possible to recreate the original action, and buying and building a brand new action certainly would be a major expense, I can't afford to pop over to Florida to see what the problem is. The etched area of the iron frame where the strings are anchored is known as a hitchplate, and from there, the strings pass over a wooden bridge, weaving between little pins. The more-or-less symmetrical shape is unusual, I have a picture of an Ibach from their 1905 catalogue.