Advice for Silent Pianos

[Vignesh]

Hello:
I am Vignesh from Holland. I am looking for a piano for my son. He is 8 years old, playing for over an year now and wants to continue. (I am also a hobby keyboardist and will play the piano when its bought).

My budget is between 3000 - 3500 Euros and I am looking for a silent piano (Or a piano with the silent accessory?) so that I can play even in the evenings without bothering my neighbors.

- I have seen one 1970s U1 Yamaha piano. It played fine although I don't have any clue when it comes to evaluating a Piano. The shopkeeper said he can fix a silent box to it if needed. This will cost around 4000 Euros in total.
- I saw a new Ritmuller 116 silent piano which works out to the same after discount including piano seat, reading lamp and headphone for the silent module etc.,. A slightly ornate version of the same 116 model number costs around 500 Euros more, personally I didn't thought its worth that money. I looked around in the internet about the Ritmuller brand. But couldn't find much reviews.
- I saw Yamaha's B3, P121 and U1 silent series in the websites of Piano shops here. A new B3, might still be within my far far fetched upper limit. But the other ones are out of my budget. I am unable to decide if an unplanned extra couple of thousand euros for a new B3 is worth the money.

My question is: Can you please suggest me, what other silent pianos I should be considering in my budget (under 4000 Euros), so that I can widen my Piano search..? New or used piano is not a criteria as long as its a good piano. I know thats a subjective statement. I only mean, I don't want to be buying a Piano only to find out that, its not a trust worthy brand or some obvious known issues with the model I bought etc.,
Another unrelated question is: Can any piano be made to a silent piano by fitting the extra silent module..?

Thank you and look forward to your valuable suggestions.

Best Regards
Vignesh S

[MarkGoodwinPianos]

My general advice is
- High quality 2nd hand is better than lower quality brand new
- German is better than Japanese but Japanese is better than Chinese & Indonesian
- Stay above 120cm in height. Preferably 130cm and above if you have the space. The depth of tone in a 130cm+ piano will beat the tone of a 120cm piano. Don't bother with anything smaller than 120cm if you are looking for a high quality sound rather than a nice piece of furniture.
- Take a piano technician with you inspect the qualify of each piano before buying.
- Haggle a price BEFORE you visit. Put 4 or 5 shops on your list and do your haggling before you visit. Tell the shops that you are visiting other shops and ask them to put forward their best price.

Let us know how you get on

[joe]

Ritmuller and B-series Yamahas are made in same factory using nearly all the same components Yamaha would be my choice,expand your search and try Kawai pianos,Essex Pianos and other brand names you may have heard of.Keep clear of badge engineered instruments which have grand sounding European names but are made in the rice fields of China.Would not advise older used pianos at your budget BUY NEW.

[chrisvenables]

Ritmuller and B-series Yamahas are made in same factory using nearly all the same components Yamaha would be my choice,expand your search and try Kawai pianos,Essex Pianos and other brand names you may have heard of.Keep clear of badge engineered instruments which have grand sounding European names but are made in the rice fields of China.Would not advise older used pianos at your budget BUY NEW.

I agree with Joe that new is better in most instances. eg:
http://www.chrisvenables.co.uk/old-yama ... 3-p121.htm

However, Joe is about 10 years out of date regarding the Yamaha/Ritmuller connection. That was when Yamaha had a joint venture factory with Pearl River and only the Yamaha C110 was imported into Europe from that factory. The C109 and C113 which ran alongside the Chinese built C110 were Indonesian.

Ritmuller are made by Pearl River in China.

Yamaha B series, B1, B2, B3, are made in Yamaha's own factory in Indonesia. Totally different components.

The Yamaha and Kawai silent systems are 'factory fitted' and well proven.

[athomik]

If going for a second hand piano with a factory fitted system, such as Yamaha, look for a recent model (fitted with the "SG" series silent system), as there have been several incarnations of the Yamaha Silent Series, with the SG being the latest. You can recognize this series by the fact that they have a "USB to device" port. If you come across one, the Kemble silent pianos use the same system (again, check for the USB port to make sure it's recent). Also be aware that the b1, b2 and b3 silent pianos are similar to the SG series, but have no MIDI ports.

The reason for going for this series is that a) it's a better system with regard to samples and technological development and b) electronic parts for this system are likely to be available for longer than for earlier models.

[joe]

Thanks Chris for upto date info,do Yamaha not own the Pearl River Factory ?.Just back from a week break in Cyprus and the hotel had a Ritmuller player grand which was was a carbon copy of a GB1 internally,cabinet had different design features and was only 4 years old.

[chrisvenables]

Pearl River Ritmuller are made by: Guangzhou Pearl River Piano Group Ltd., Guangzhou, Guangdong Province, China.
Originally established in 1954 through the consolidation of several piano-making facilities, the Guangzhou Pearl River factory is now China's largest piano manufacturer and one of the largest in the world, with production of over 100,000 pianos annually by more than 4,000 workers. The government-owned company says the average length of service of its workers is 17 years. Pianos are made under the Pearl River and Ritmüller names, and under a few other names under OEM contracts with distributors, such as Henry F. Miller (with Sherman Clay) and Essex (with Steinway). -That's quite some rice field Joe!

The baby grand you saw in Cyprus (alright for some eh?) may well have been a carbon copy, as the Asians are masters of that, but it would have been just that, a copy.

Regards.

[joe]

So Yamaha have no technical input with Pearl River ? . There is no Yamaha shareholding in Pearl River ?. There is no Yamaha frame,soundboards,back posts,and piano action part production in Pearl River ?. In effect the Yamaha factory in Indonesia is doing all the production of pianos from start to finish.Are the U-series still made in Japan ?. Are the C-series grand still made in Japan ?. Are the GC-series grands made in Indonesia ?. Whats the difference ?. Seems very confusing and aload of sales hype.

[chrisvenables]

Here's an extract from Wikepedia:

''After learning and emulating Yamaha's production processes, the Pearl River Piano company ousted Yamaha's ownership of the factory along with the backing of the Chinese government. Despite Pearl River's frequent marketing as having been "Designed by Yamaha", the two corporations have no ongoing partnership and Pearl River's pianos have no affiliation with Yamaha Corporation.''

Regarding your point about the differences in Yamahas - currently, for distribution in Europe:

Yamaha B and P series uprights and GB1 grands are made in Indonesia.

GC1, GC2, C, CXA, S and CF series grands and U, YUS, SU uprights are made in Japan

Yamaha's factories in China in Xiashan and Hangzhou make some other models for other parts of the world, including USA.

Differences in models can be seen on Yamaha's website.

Differences in manufacturing from country to country, Yamaha say, are nil, as per the link (sorry to repeat this again, but you asked):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBtu7KSdqk8

[Vignesh]

Hello All:
Thank you very much for all your insightful responses.

One catch I see from the responses is that: while I should be looking a new silent piano at my budget, the problem is even the lowest range of the new Yamaha Silent Pianos, i.e., B1 retails at 4500 Euros, way above my budget. The decent option of new B3 starts around 5800 Euros (Eg. See http://www.clavis.nl/default/assortimen ... piano/b-3s.) Not sure if these are market rates, but this is the price indication I get from the sites of the shops.

Essex or Kawai pianos are great additional choices I received through your advice. I will keep looking for them Initial search seems, there are not a lot of them out here on second hand. (Yamaha seems to dominate the second hand market.) And the rates of new ones of these brands are comparable to new Yamaha P121 price range. So still above my budget unless I am missing them. So if I should be looking at new pianos, then can you please suggest me, what brands/ series I should be considering? are there any Kawai and Essex new silent Pianos that retail around my price range?

As a rule of thumb I am seeing used U1 or U3 from 1970/ 80s/90s in the range of 3000/4000/5000 Euros in that order. So it looks like a option for me - to have to look at a 1970/80 U1 piano (U3 might be a bit more imposing in my living room) around the 3000 mark and reserve around an additional 1000 euros for the silent system to eventually get by my budget.

But since its a significant investment for me, I am really curious about my other option of new pianos in my budget.

This Saturday I am visiting a few shops and I realize this is going to be a time consuming exercise. Once again thank you all. Being a new comer I am astounded at the level of information/ technical depth/ learning opportunities in this forum.

Best Regards
Vignesh S

[Vignesh]

All:

After an exhaustive whole day trip of visiting 4 shops one after the other, here is where I stand. I hope this may also present the choices for a first time piano buyer for kids/ hobby playing.

- My budget of 3000-3500 Euros seems unrealistic for a good silent piano. The only pianos that are available at that range are: New 116 - 120 Ritmullers or Wendl & Lung both of which I am told is "Not that Bad" for a beginner range (Both chinese.. W&L considered a tad better than Ritumuller)
-Kawai K2/K3 and Yamaha B3/121 are also generally recommended by all dealers as "Good Pianos".
- Very rarely you find second hand Pianos of new generation mechanics/ technology (i.e., that are <10 years old. I find hardly any young second hand B1 - B3/ K2-K3 or P121 pianos.)
- Personally I liked the sound of Yamaha over the sound of Kawai (But its purely subjective). In my view treble notes of Yamaha B3 were much better than the treble of K2. K3 was better and comparable to B3.
- Coming to Silent, the costs shoot up in excess of 1000 Euros for a factory fitted model.
- Advise of Adrian Thomas on the silent system is a peach. B3's silent is basic, no possibility of taking output from Piano to Computer (which I would ideally like), not even a midi :-( !! Compare this to the Kawai's ATX silent system which offers much more tones and generally considered advanced than the silent system of Yamaha's B1-B3.
- Concept of silent system is excellent. But playing with silent feels much harder for me to play. Guess everything has its pros and cons.

Finally My choices are boiled down to the following in the increasing order of prices. Each step is roughly 500 Euros higher:
New K2 (4000 Eur), New B3(4500), 2 years used but mint condition K2 ATX Silent (5000), New K3 (5000), New B3 Silent (5800), New K3 Silent ATX (6300). Logically extending this list with new P121/ U1 range takes my quest out of budget by all means..

So the bottom line is, I am forced to stretch my budget between 4500 to 5500 Euros if I am to have a satisfactory "feel good" buy that fits my expectations.

At this moment I am considering the 2 years used K2 ATX. On the tone front, its a bit poor than a B3 (personal view) but it satisfies all my needs - A reliable piano with a good silent system .

But still wondering coming all the way to 5K budget, should I still stretch and consider a B3 silent/ K3 silent !! (Still not Audio out to Computer from B3 is a dampener). This is not what I intended at all when I started my search. But I am serious about my investment as me and my son hope to play for many years and hence want to be sure.. Are there any more obvious brands I missing in my search ..? Would really value your advice very much.

Best Regards
Vignesh S

[joe]

What is your reason for buying silent piano ?. Kawai K2-ATX is nice piano,and the silent function in their ATX system is superior to Yamahas.Stay away from 30 to 40 year old Japanese imports these pianos are generally heavily used and from a personal point i would never fully restring and totally re-condition a Yamaha or Kawai piano of that age or older,not worth the bother, their lifespan is roughly 25 years then bin it.Another idea, should be able to get 121cm acoustic piano,and electric keyboard with headphones around your budget if you shop around long enough.

[Vignesh]

Hi Joe:
Buying a acoustic + electric may become redundant since I already have a keyboard !!The main reason for me to have a Silent Piano is,
1. Mostly the time I get to play is going to be after 21:00 hours.
2. The place where I will put the piano is not to the common wall with the neighbor. However its only a couple of meters away (that wall will be perpendicular to the sound board though) . Its rather quite at that time of the evening and last thing I want is buying a piano which I am not able to play when I can/ feel like..

Thanks for the suggestions. At this moment I am indeed considering new/ less than few years old Piano.

Best Regards
Vignesh S

[Vignesh]

Wanted to give you an update on the final deal.. I bought a new B3 Yamaha Silent Piano. The Piano was delivered recently. To me, The tone of B3 was personally better than the K3 and hence I went with it, even though the silent system is far superior in the K3 (I thought the impression which the Piano leaves on you in the acoustic mode is far more important). Both me and my son are having a great time with it. If you played on the normal mode, its awful to play on the silent mode. But most of my playing time is in the evenings and hence nothing to complaint about. The tone of the Piano in the bass is good. But I feel after the middle C, the tone is immaculate.

Thank you once again for all the valuable advice I received from this forum.

Cheers
Vignesh