Yamaha P114

shabzy · Post by **shabzy** » 27 Aug 2011, 20:50

Hi
I need help. I am looking for a piano for y daughter aged 7 who has played for a year and teacher says is doing very well. Just returned a hired digital and we are looking at uprights. I am being told a new Yam P114 is available for £3500. I know P114 were discontinued in summer 2009 and wonder if this is a good price or if another option is better. Thoughts welcome.

MarkGoodwinPianos · Post by **MarkGoodwinPianos** » 27 Aug 2011, 22:30

As the name suggests, the P114 is only 114cm tall. This is very small and doesn't allow the piano to have decent length strings or a large soundboard. A nice big soundboard and long strings are required for a high quality tone, that's why concert grand pianos are so long.

Consider something 120cm or higher to get a better tone quality.
I'm fond of the Yamaha U1 at 121cm or if you have the space and budget the Yamaha U3 at 131cm. Those are 2 very popular options that many piano teachers and tuners tend to recommend regularly.

Be careful of brand new pianos with German sounding names costing around £2000 - £3500. They are rarely German, and are usually Chinese. These pianos have unproven longevity and are terrible at holding their value.

mdw · Post by **mdw** » 28 Aug 2011, 08:35

Also beware of some 2nd hand Yamahas. Some are good , some are grotty but they will all tend to look nice. You cant tell unless you take a trained tech who knows what they are on about. At the very least the 20 year old Yam will have had to have had the spring loops replaced requiring an action strip down.
The P114 should be fine unless you have a huge room. Dont buy any piano just on what its future value might be, no point buying a piano you dont like just because someone else might like it in a few years time.

YOu could try Kemble, Kawai, Samick. Dont go to the very low end of the new market but there are some nice new piano available at your budget.
Buy from your local piano dealer as well not someone half the country away over the net. Look after your local dealer and he/she will look after you. For example twice this year ive ( free of charge) moved pianos into the room next door whilst carpet is fitted for people who brought pianos from us. I also had a lady ring up in a fluster wanting her piano delivered.................. from the bottom of her driveway where the pallet courier dropped it of from the internet dealer. We think that move cost her £4 per step we each took up the driveway.

Also got to a dealer where you can try a broad range of makes, sizes and styles then you get to make your own mind up what you like.

MarkGoodwinPianos · Post by **MarkGoodwinPianos** » 28 Aug 2011, 11:14

Good tip MDW, always try to take a trained tech with you so that you can differentiate between the grotty ones and the brilliant ones. The difference can be quite striking.

Sadly, although I often advise folk to bring a technician, very few actually do so I offer a 14 day moneyback guarantee these days so you can take delivery and then ask your favourite tuner to inspect it in your home. If he doesn't give a glowing report you get a full refund including delivery.

mdw wrote:I also had a lady ring up in a fluster wanting her piano delivered.................. from the bottom of her driveway where the pallet courier dropped it of from the internet dealer

Oh dear that's terrible. It's a shame you can't name & shame the dealer. Was that a digital (I'm assuming so) or an acoustic piano? There are some dodgy dealers around but I've never heard of someone leaving an acoustic piano at the bottom of someone's driveway before. That story should be on Watchdog!

shabzy · Post by **shabzy** » 28 Aug 2011, 17:15

Thank-you for that advice Mark and MDW.
I will look at the other options but can you let me know the following:
-what replaced the Yam P114?
-which is the higher spec, the Yam U or Yam B series? Seems B on price.
-are the U and B series better quality and sound once someone reaches the higher grades?
-should the P114 be offered at around £2500 not £3500 as it is discontinued? Seems £4500 was the price pre discontinuation and hence hardly a drop over 2 years, ie 15% off £4500 would have made it £3825 2 years ago

MarkGoodwinPianos · Post by **MarkGoodwinPianos** » 28 Aug 2011, 19:26

The B series is the cheapest series, made in Indonesia for beginners
The P series are the next level up, made in various places.
The U series is the highest quality out of those 3 series. Made in Japan and built to last many decades of top level playing.

Yes £3500 seems high for a 2nd hand small upright. Have you asked for a discount?
He may drop the price

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 28 Aug 2011, 19:33

shabzy wrote:Thank-you for that advice Mark and MDW.
I will look at the other options but can you let me know the following:
-what replaced the Yam P114?
-which is the higher spec, the Yam U or Yam B series? Seems B on price.
-are the U and B series better quality and sound once someone reaches the higher grades?
-should the P114 be offered at around £2500 not £3500 as it is discontinued? Seems £4500 was the price pre discontinuation and hence hardly a drop over 2 years, ie 15% off £4500 would have made it £3825 2 years ago

P range of pianos are still being made but not in the UK the p114 has been discontinued, just because a model has been discontinued don't expect a huge discount of more than is offered. Myself I would look at the B3 rather than the P114

The U range is far better, plus higher spec than the Bs series the Bs and the Ps are made in Indonesia were as the U range is made in Japan. The P114 was made in the UK

Barrie,

shabzy · Post by **shabzy** » 29 Aug 2011, 10:12

Thanks
The Yam P114 is a 'new' unregistered piano that I am offered. I am told it has never been sold. I am told I can pay over 3yrs int free. So perhaps the price is high as it includes profit for spreading term of payment but still seems high. I sense it should be around £2500 as it is new but discontinued.
The Kawai K2 has a few recommendations but is also only 114cm
What would you suggest for £2500? My daughter has only played for a year and is playing well. Would you say stretch and buy new a piano that will last a lifetime or buy a used good quality and change in a few years, subject to

MarkGoodwinPianos · Post by **MarkGoodwinPianos** » 29 Aug 2011, 11:05

You might think I'm biased but I think the U1 is a brilliant option at around the £2500 mark.
Mine are just slightly outside your budget but my price includes delivery, 1st tuning, 5 year guarantee and I also give a 14 day moneyback guarantee (100% refund, no return delivery fee) in case you don't like it.

Click the link in my signature and then click to view my price list.

Ideally, you should be getting out and about to as many piano shops as you can so that you can get a feel for how far your money will stretch. A few things to remember on your travels:

- Japanese pianos are better than Chinese or Indonesian
- German pianos are better than Japanese
- Anything under 120cm might sound a bit thin and tinny and are only usually designed for the earlier grades
- Ask the dealer to remove the top and bottom panels and have a very close look. For second hand pianos ask him to show you which bits have been replaced.
- If possible, take a piano tuner with you so he can check the action, strings, soundboard and pins for you. If you can't take a technician or if you buy via email/phone demand a period of time where you can have a full refund if it isn't for you.

MarkGoodwinPianos · Post by **MarkGoodwinPianos** » 29 Aug 2011, 11:07

I've just had another thought.
People often warn against buying by email/phone. In general that is good advice because you should really sit and play any piano before considering buying it. However, if you buy without visiting the shop you automatically get 14 days to try the piano out and if you decide that you don't like it for any reason at all, you have a full legal right to demand all of your money back including any delivery fee paid. That's the law.

Happy shopping.
Keep us posted

joe · Post by **joe** » 29 Aug 2011, 11:12

MG sounds DESPERATE ?

mdw · Post by **mdw** » 29 Aug 2011, 12:00

shabzy wrote: I sense it should be around £2500 as it is new but discontinued.

Why should the piano be discounted from the £3500? Its a brand new piano with nothing wrong with it. Those dealers offering you everything including the kitchen sink are either over pricing their pianos to knock it all off or having biiiiiiiiiiiiiig problems selling stock.

I price my product at a sensible price and if the customer doesnt want me to take a living wage out of my business I dont realy want them as a customer. What the hell is so wrong with making a living in this trade. People dont go to Tescos and offer 50% less than the price tag so why do they think its acceptable to do in the piano trade.

Ps its not meant as a rant at the OP just a general letting of of steam!!!

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 29 Aug 2011, 13:30

shabzy wrote:Thanks
The Yam P114 is a 'new' unregistered piano that I am offered. I am told it has never been sold. I am told I can pay over 3yrs int free. So perhaps the price is high as it includes profit for spreading term of payment but still seems high. I sense it should be around £2500 as it is new but discontinued.

You are buying a piano not a fridge, a fridge will just sit there in a shop you may have to dust it, now and again but a piano will not, it has to be maintained and that cost money. You may think it should be £2500 but if the retailer sells it for that, They will be losing money not making it

If your max budget is £2500.00 then you should be looking a secondhand not mid quality new, unless you go for the low end Chinese market then you can buy new

If you go for secondhand take a tuner with you

Barrie,

sussexpianos · Post by **sussexpianos** » 30 Aug 2011, 17:40

The Yamaha P114 is priced right, and the 3 year option is a cherry. If you don't need the 3 years then you can ask for a cash deal(dosn't mean you have to pay cash!?) You might get £100 off. The most important thing is what MDW mentioned, find a good local dealer and not someone hundred miles away. If you cannot find the extra for the Yam, then consider other cheaper makes like Samick or Gerh Steinberg.

MarkGoodwinPianos · Post by **MarkGoodwinPianos** » 30 Aug 2011, 18:13

I don't think buying local is THE most important factor. It should be lower down the list behind quality, condition, guarantee and price. If buying local leaves you £1000 worse off it's no wonder people buy from dealers further afield.

I wonder if those who advocate buying pianos locally do all of their weekly grocery shopping from their corner shop and not a supermarket. I assume they also don't do any internet shopping when an identical (but more expensive) product is available locally. I also assume they still have milk delivered to their door each morning to support the local farmer and they also buy his meat and eggs.

Oh and don't leave the country for your annual holiday when your local tourism industry is desperate for your custom.

sussexpianos · Post by **sussexpianos** » 30 Aug 2011, 19:17

MarkGoodwinPianos wrote:I don't think buying local is THE most important factor. It should be lower down the list behind quality, condition, guarantee and price. If buying local leaves you £1000 worse off it's no wonder people buy from dealers further afield.

I wonder if those who advocate buying pianos locally do all of their weekly grocery shopping from their corner shop and not a supermarket. I assume they also don't do any internet shopping when an identical (but more expensive) product is available locally. I also assume they still have milk delivered to their door each morning to support the local farmer and they also buy his meat and eggs.

Oh and don't leave the country for your annual holiday when your local tourism industry is desperate for your custom.

You have missed the point here.
I find that if I have a problem with something and I bought it locally, I can pop in the car or they pop over and it’s sorted quickly. However, I find when I buy stuff over the net, and some online auction houses, the service is different. Is someone a few hundred miles away going to worry much about a cheap product they didn't earn much on? If you haven’t the choice local or the price is way too high, then get in the car and drive to the next shop. It’s a piano, not a fridge! I have sold pianos to St Andrews (Scotland), Wales and even India but they all came in to my shop. I have to rely on the local tuner but make sure the piano is prep correctly. I am not going to turn that business away, but if I was buying an expensive item, and if it might cost me roughly £100 more to buy it local, bearing in mind that a piano is a complicated working instrument, I would buy local if I could and trusted that shop. Some people who have specific requirements do have to travel to find that perfect piano but if you’re not that fussy and you have a local piano shop, use them. Most piano shops are open to deals but they won't discount to a point that its not worth doing as they have the overheads of the showroom, the time to prep, tuning etc and make a living.
I am a great supporter of local farm shops, the bacon is thicker, dry cured and not pumped full of water

mdw · Post by **mdw** » 30 Aug 2011, 19:58

3 weeks ago 2 days before I was off the the south of france for 2 weeks the AC on my car stopped working. My LOCAL guy who services all the cars took it away replaced the faulty part and had it back to me they day before we left. And every time the temp went over 35degrees we said a little .............................no BIG prayer for the health and wellbeing of the mechanic. Would I have got that service from even the next county. I dont think so. Buy local its the only way.

mdw · Post by **mdw** » 30 Aug 2011, 20:12

Mark If your sugesting people dont shop localy why dont I see your adverts in all the local music event programs I support localy. I probably put £1000 in to local event program adverts a year and whilst its nice to help out I do expect to get a return on it as god forbid, I am a business and need to make a profit!!! If all those people are going to buy from dealers like you I suggest you need to start playing your part in the cycle and putting your cash up front. Otherwise its seems a bit oneway does it not?

MarkGoodwinPianos · Post by **MarkGoodwinPianos** » 30 Aug 2011, 23:24

[quote="sussex]I am a great supporter of local farm shops, the bacon is thicker, dry cured and not pumped full of water[/quote]

Excellent! We can agree on something 100%. Smashing

@MDW:
When asked to support piano recitals, I usually place an advert. I'm hardly ever asked though it has to be said, (there isn't much going on in Oldham).

Also, there is a concert every summer where I only charge £100 to rent them a piano for their annual fund raising concert. The first time I gave it to them completely free. £100 is obviously not a profitable amount bearing in mind the 2 round trips of at least an hour plus setup time. I do it because they asked politely and it's good to be generous. The going rate for that job is probably £300 - £400.

I also give pianos away for free to people who don't have much of a budget. For me, profit comes 2nd to having a good time and making people happy. I've often dreamed about working for a full year where I sell pianos at cost, making £0 profit for the full year. It would be a fun, non-capitalist thing to do and would generate a lot of goodwill.

With every passing year I become less happy being part of capitalist society. That's why I'd like to stick 2 fingers up at profit at some point. I'm not sure my wife would be very happy but there you go

mdw · Post by **mdw** » 31 Aug 2011, 07:30

Do you realy beleive any of that?

For someone who doesnt like profit youve not done too badly for yourself have you . How did all your stock fund itself? You either have a rich benefactor, a big bank loan of you ve made a tidy penny out of a few pianos to fund that lot.

My point re the advertising is you live in oldham and thats where you advertise localy, yet you take profit nationaly but dont put it back in nationaly. As ive said many times before dealers like you dont provide the full propper service that people like sussex and I do in our areas yet you take money out of our areas by discounting and cherrypicking the profitable easy sell pianos without providing the broad service.

Anyway im of to polish my halo

and tune a few pianos. Youve got to love the start of the new year as a tuner, a month of tuning all day long in schools and its recession proof!!!!

MarkGoodwinPianos · Post by **MarkGoodwinPianos** » 31 Aug 2011, 11:12

mdw wrote:Anyway im of to polish my halo and tune a few pianos. Youve got to love the start of the new year as a tuner, a month of tuning all day long in schools and its recession proof!!!!

I was saying yesterday I might have to go into piano teaching in order to get some sort of predictable income. Relying on selling pianos is quite stressful. What if no customers turn up one month? I occasionally panic about that prospect.

Anyway, I'll accept your point when you tell me that you buy all of your milk, meat and eggs from your nearest farmer and all of your groceries come from your corner shop

mdw · Post by **mdw** » 31 Aug 2011, 13:20

Bit of a problem there. All local farms are arable, oil seed rape or setaside and the local butcher turned into a chippy about 4 years ago. Now I think about it apart from the petrol station my nearest shop is infact the great satan tescos!! Its grim and sad but in a town of 75 K people we only have 2 butchers in the local shopping centre, fish monger is now a florest, and 2 or 3cake shops. Not proper bakers but more a cake and a sandwich type place. But we do have 3 tesco mega stores, 2 petrol station type outlets and 3 metro style stores. But none of that matters cos tescos are cheaper than othershops!!
Had me lunch, back of tuning.

mdw · Post by **mdw** » 01 Sep 2011, 22:03

Just found out the main music shop in town has just closed and I quote from the shop door " due to economic factors and the rise in internet trading". They had been there since 71

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 01 Sep 2011, 23:25

mdw wrote:Just found out the main music shop in town has just closed and I quote from the shop door " due to economic factors and the rise in internet trading". They had been there since 71

its just the same as the big supermarkets moving in a local area small shops just can't compete, sad but unstoppable, as the consumer has the final say and 95% vote on cost and conveyance.

Some retailers are making ago with own brands taking a leaf from the supermarkets pushing the big brands out, by pushing their own and stocking less of the big names For that to work it has to be cheaper and as good as the leading brand, The internet can help if the brand is talked about a lot and get positive revues but that is hard as most own branded makes come fore the far east and there is still a negative out look on them just like there was with Yamaha 35 Years ago can the small retailer last that long before attitudes change ...

Barrie

MarkGoodwinPianos · Post by **MarkGoodwinPianos** » 02 Sep 2011, 09:52

mdw wrote:Just found out the main music shop in town has just closed and I quote from the shop door " due to economic factors and the rise in internet trading". They had been there since 71

The sign may as well have said:
"Our business model was outdated, we didn't adapt to the changing demands of customers and we failed to utilise the enormous power of the internet to grow our business"

mdw · Post by **mdw** » 02 Sep 2011, 11:53

Or it could have said we are sick and tired of other people riding on our coat tails for free and using us as a free showroom. It doesnt actualy matter now because if you want to buy an instrument you now only have one other shop in town or a 30 mile drive.

If it helps you to sleep better at night Mark you can belive what you say but the logical conclusion is No retailers of instruments and the manufactures sell direct to the customers as if its all postal why have more than 1 sales point.

And by the way I dont think Dolphin did too well either and they were the ultimate web music retailer!

MarkGoodwinPianos · Post by **MarkGoodwinPianos** » 02 Sep 2011, 12:50

Not sure why you are concerned about me sleeping at night.
Please stay respectful and don't take things to a personal level when we are simply discussing market forces.

NewAge · Post by **NewAge** » 02 Sep 2011, 16:02

MarkGoodwinPianos wrote:
mdw wrote:Just found out the main music shop in town has just closed and I quote from the shop door " due to economic factors and the rise in internet trading". They had been there since 71
The sign may as well have said:
"Our business model was outdated, we didn't adapt to the changing demands of customers and we failed to utilise the enormous power of the internet to grow our business"

Or, perhaps their 'business model' was a radical one and they had been giving away a little too many free pianos instead of making a few more bob just to keep the wolf from the door.

MarkGoodwinPianos · Post by **MarkGoodwinPianos** » 02 Sep 2011, 19:06

Yes that would be a terrible business model!!
Only a fool would attempt something similar

mdw · Post by **mdw** » 02 Sep 2011, 22:21

Can you accept the fact that a lot if not most internet sales are based on the customer trying a product in a local shop and then buying over the net cheaper. In fact the best term I can find on the web is parasitic, google it and see how close it is

I think that towns with half empty shops and the other half being banks, estate agents and charity shops are not the places that most of us want. I also dont think that capitalisum works when its let free to run amock. Ive already said that internet dealers l ( yes like yourself) take money from a local area but dont put anything back. That music shop that closed ran a full page add in pretty much the same concert programs as I do. That now stops from that trader so the local concert is now 15% down on its advertising take.

A lot of people are too greedy and frankly stupid to see whats happening until its too late, then they moan about why their towns are no go areas at night and theres nothing to do. Just jumping on the band wagon and saying if I dont do it someone else will is no excuse either.

If we go into a double dip recession ( and I think we are half way in already) the traders most likely to survive this are those that tune and repair, own their own buildings and have been around for a loooooooooooong time so have a list of regular customer who support them. Those that just sell are deep in the doo doo, internet or not. I would get those piano lessons started now before its too late.

MarkGoodwinPianos · Post by **MarkGoodwinPianos** » 03 Sep 2011, 08:08

You are being very rude. I provide excellent service, excellent pianos, at sensible prices and I make my customers very happy.

Please adjust your tone, you are being very disrespectful

mdw · Post by **mdw** » 03 Sep 2011, 09:17

Im not sure what in my last post was rude to you directy. My only coment about you personaly was re the lessons which you first sugested and beleive it or not I do think is a good idea as it gives you a personal hook which you dont have as your not a tuner technician. All my others comments were aimed at internet based traders and the harm they have caused, if you took that personaly I guess im sorry for your interpretation.

MarkGoodwinPianos · Post by **MarkGoodwinPianos** » 03 Sep 2011, 10:45

Thanks. Be more sensitive in future. You have a general air of disrespect towards me. It isn't justified as you don't know me. Cheers.

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 03 Sep 2011, 11:35

mdw wrote:Can you accept the fact that a lot if not most internet sales are based on the customer trying a product in a local shop and then buying over the net cheaper. In fact the best term I can find on the web is parasitic, google it and see how close it is

Some Retailers in the North do tell perspective clients in the London area to go into C- of BS or H to look at pianos, then come buy one form us over the phone. You may look at this as a wrong I look on it as a missed opportunity by the sales team at C- of BS a good sales person should be able to sell on a face to face However, a lot of shops still live in the 70s when pianos sold themselves And I hear some of them O' the internet, O' the Manufactures, O' things are not like they use to be

The fact is you now get buyers now who look at pianos as if they are buying white good, the trade may look at this as very sad but the trade has to adjust their business model or die. Some retailers have, one of the first was Chamberlain back in 1997 they were looking to sell on-line then, next was Reidys music in Blackburn, then around 1999 you have MB, Venables and Rimmers. Chamberlain, Reidys and Rimmers now have more staff in their back room than on the shop floor. New kids on the block like Mark see that part of trade as the future and were the money will be. Even our Plymouth Brethren fends in Swansea who are by nature anti modern have moved to the web and are embarking on an aggressive internet campaign

mdw wrote: A lot of people are too greedy and frankly stupid to see whats happening until its too late, then they moan about why their towns are no go areas at night and theres nothing to do. Just jumping on the band wagon and saying if I dont do it someone else will is no excuse either.

We are in the piano trade to make a profit, not to make a living if you just want to make a living then go and get a job with the council . I got told that back in the 70s and its still true today. Well there are no jobs left in the council well not many

The fact is that there is no room for all the retailers who sell musical instrument The UK has embraced buying on the net they just don't buy in the UK they buy all over the world Why because then can, and because if it is not in Google then you must not be able to buy it folk are become to lazy.

The wife hsd just sold a product which it would have been cheaper for the buyer to buy locally because of postage next day dilivary and we sell it for more because we import them form that country. Why did they do this! They are at work buying things on the net instead of working, convenient for them, good for us, not so good for their employer or the local shop but Its their choice.

Barrie

Emma1972 · Post by **Emma1972** » 03 Sep 2011, 12:32

Shabzy, you saw my earlier post about the P114 v U1.

I went for the secondhand P114 in the end, and I absolutely love it. Having started as a beginner about 4 months ago, I have been playing non-stop ever since. I think I'm so enthusiastic because I adore my piano so much. My teacher also likes the piano, and often comments how much he enjoys playing it. So, from my perspective, there is nothing wrong with a 114cm piano. I'm afraid my husband would say that it's not particularly enjoyable for the rest of the household to listen to a beginner, so why is a taller, louder piano better? (well it wouldn't be for me) And I agree with other posters, to avoid cheaper new pianos (from China) which sound hideous in comparison. Your daughter will thank you for it.

Hope this helps,

Emma

chrisvenables · Post by **chrisvenables** » 04 Sep 2011, 13:57

Shabzy/Emma

I agree that the nearly new P114, despite being short, is a wiser buy than a 35 year old U1. Although the longer strings and greater soundboard area do improve the bass and the dynamic range, when comparing new with new, pianos deteriorate with age (why else would they be cheaper?) and IMHO the newer smaller piano will sound and feel better than the old U1.

MarkGoodwinPianos wrote:The B series is the cheapest series, made in Indonesia for beginners
The P series are the next level up, made in various places.
The U series is the highest quality out of those 3 series. Made in Japan and built to last many decades of top level playing.

For beginners? Not quite right. We have supplied many senior music departments and universities with the B3. The design and all the moving parts are the same as in a new U1 and the B3 soundboard is actually more durable than that in the U1, so the new B3 will last at least as long as a new U1. For similarities between new B3, new P121, new U1, new U3 and comparisons between these new models (post 2000) and older Yamahas such as U1H, please see our website

http://www.chrisvenables.co.uk/old-yama ... 3-p121.htm

P series was made in UK, now made in Indonesia (again, same action components as U1)

U1 highest quality claim? I think the soundboard in the P121 is better than that in the U1 (European spruce instead of Alaskan spruce). Yamaha use the same European spruce in their new Conservatory XA models which carry a premium over the standard C series. I have been tuning and prepping new Yamahas for 31 years and I consider the Indonesian Yamahas of equal build quality to those of Japan. A couple of years ago, Yamaha UK did not prep the B3 before sending them out to their dealers, so if the dealer neglected the prepping, the result could be a little iffy. Although Yamaha have addressed this point now, thorough dealer prepping is still vital to any new piano to obtain the best from it.

Country of origin - please see the attached video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBtu7KSdqk8

MarkGoodwinPianos · Post by **MarkGoodwinPianos** » 04 Sep 2011, 19:32

Hi Chris,
It's good that different folk have different opinions. How boring it would be if we all agreed on everything.

My opinion is that a used U1 is more satisfying to play than a new P114. The extra 7cm in height and the larger soundboard surface area makes a big difference to my ears but it's fine if other folks see things differently of course.

There will always be an attraction to brand new items as there is a better "Feel good" factor associated with buying new things. Attitudes are changing on this one of course as we realise that we can't just relentlessly bury our perfectly good used items in landfills.

Earlier this year I vowed not to buy any more clothes brand new. I'm tired of being part of a system that condones such terrible working conditions and low wages in China, Indonesia and other places just so that people in the West can enjoy a cheap standard of living.

Since then I've had some brilliant £1 shirts from car boots and my steel toe cap work boots are ex-army stock. I attempted to buy a 2nd hand pram for our baby but my wife over-ruled me on that one. The pram had to be new but I did buy some cute skirts and jackets for the baby at only 30p each.

This attitude helps prevent unnecessary filling of landfills and helps prevent the constant mining natural resources to create new products.

Excessive packaging is also a big gripe. Imagine creating a glass bottle just for the sake of storing 250ml of Coke. Shocking. All of that processing and transporting the materials and ingredients all over the world just so that I can have 2 mouthfuls of something that does a worst job of quenching thirst than water.

I could waffle on all day (as you can no doubt tell) sorry about that!

chrisvenables · Post by **chrisvenables** » 05 Sep 2011, 09:49

So you're saying that we in the UK should import the 35 year old unwanted pianos from Japan (because the Japanese think they're well passed their sell by date and I agree- and they don't want them in their landfill sites) eventually those pianos will go into our landfill sites - only 35 years sooner than if we buy a new one.

Terrible working conditions in China and Indonesia - in the piano industry? Take another look at the Yamaha video showing their workers in Indonesia. They look very well turned out, are working in a clean environment, have all the necessary safety gear in place and the factory has state of the art technology. Ditto their factory in China.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBtu7KSdqk8

MarkGoodwinPianos · Post by **MarkGoodwinPianos** » 05 Sep 2011, 10:50

I'm just saying that a 70s/80s/90s U3 has many years of top quality service left in it so there is no need to be mining fresh raw materials from the ground and shipping them all over the world for processing. I choose not to stock U3s from the 1960s or early 1970s but I'm sure for many musical families these would do just fine. But I prefer the cabinet design and sound quality of the mid/late 70s up to the 1990s.

Once you get into the 1990s I find that there is often too much volume and sometimes too much brightness which can make a bit overpowering for domestic use.

The pianos are not passed their shelf life. It's just that Japanese culture is biased against 2nd hand goods. Whether that's because of their belief in Karma transferring from house to house via the used products I don't know. But there is a large car and motorbike export market from Japan because Japanese buyers want brand new things, not 2nd hand. We in the West recognise the value of high quality used goods compared with buying brand new so that's why there are thousands of happy customers all over Europe, North America and beyond who are achieving grade 8 (and beyond) on these pianos.

Here is an article which mentions the Japanese aversion to 2nd hand goods. (caution it contains an explicit image, sorry)
http://www.dannychoo.com/post/en/1364/S ... Manga.html

chrisvenables · Post by **chrisvenables** » 05 Sep 2011, 12:26

It's true the Japanese like to buy new. That's because new is better and new Yamaha pianos are superior to old ones. The Japanese customer with the 35 year old U1 or U3 could still keep the piano and have it restored. They choose not to because when restored it still won't sound as good as the new model.

Your comment that you find a 1990 U3 and beyond too powerful for domestic use is really your defense of the tired weak sound that comes from (particularly in the bass) an old U1 or U3. That's why Yamaha changed the scaling, the overall design, the type of strings and the hammers. Early Yamahas had a poor bass, even when new and the bass deteriorates further as the piano ages. In a comprehensive piano test done for the Good Piano Guide in 1989/1990 involving over 40 new uprights we rated the U1 just 14th and the U3 11th, (despite being a major Yamaha dealer!) We even commented that the bass on the U1 was 'a bit thin'.

Any experienced technician can prep, tone and voice a new Yamaha to whatever tonal and power level a customer wants.

MarkGoodwinPianos · Post by **MarkGoodwinPianos** » 05 Sep 2011, 12:44

In my opinion there is too much brightness in many of the new Yamaha pianos. I know that voicing can help with this but only to a degree. An overly bright piano will stay bright even after voicing it down.

sussexpianos · Post by **sussexpianos** » 05 Sep 2011, 16:13

I have a new B1 and B3 in the showroom. I do have to say they are toned very nice and are not what the old cheaper Yamaha pianos used to be. The tone is nice and action plays well. Yamaha actions are very good but I do like Kawai actions as well. I do however wish Yamaha did a B4 (131cm), that would be nice. I would also like Yamaha to stop the px and upgrade things and keep everything simple, low prices, but I guess the public like sales marketing schemes

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 05 Sep 2011, 19:58

MarkGoodwinPianos wrote: I know that voicing can help with this but only to a degree. An overly bright piano will stay bright even after voicing it down.

That is so not true... if you deep voice in the cushion area it stays that way, you get a bit of an increase after a few years but that is nose hardness I have took a lot of Yamaha's down to Bluthner levels the YUS voice down very nicely they are so sweet when down.

However, most of the 1970s 80 U1and U3 tend to need new hammers anyway as they are tired and don't respond as well to deep voicing

Barrie

chrisvenables · Post by **chrisvenables** » 05 Sep 2011, 20:12

I totally agree with you Barry - and Sussex Pianos too. (Both good technicians)

MarkGoodwinPianos · Post by **MarkGoodwinPianos** » 06 Sep 2011, 00:38

Thanks Barrie.
Always happy to be corrected

I have a very bright 1995 Yamaha E108 that needs some sweetening. I didn't think it could be changed to that extent. Good news!

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 06 Sep 2011, 08:33

MarkGoodwinPianos wrote:Thanks Barrie.
Always happy to be corrected

I have a very bright 1995 Yamaha E108 that needs some sweetening. I didn't think it could be changed to that extent. Good news!

Yes it can be done probably what you have experienced with voicing is shallow voicing nose voicing with 3mm needle

nose voicing with 1 to 3mm needles is normally used to take out the Variations you get in from one side of the hammer to the other when picking out or in a concert venue when the pianist is not happy with a section and need it softer You know that with hard playing or the use of an iron that will come back up quite easy

What your tuner need to do take the action out as this can not be done in-the piano he need 10 to 15mm long needles in a good heavy voicing tool. He needs a block under the heads to support the heads and you are looking at 12 to 15 hard stabs on each shoulder at a 45 degree angle in the 10 15 past area from notes 6 to 60 ish then reduce to 7 to 10 each side to notes 80

Then put the action in and level out voicing with 5mm needles in the 5 to 10 past area on both sides, then uses the 1 to 3mm needles to take out and hot spots in the nose you need to use a felt wedge to listen to each string.

Takes about 2 to 4 hours on an upright not including the tuning

or if he is adventurous you can use steam much faster and longer lasting but not for the faint hearted as you can get is so very wrong very quickly

Barrie

MarkGoodwinPianos · Post by **MarkGoodwinPianos** » 06 Sep 2011, 11:26

Thanks again Barrie.
I'll print this so that the advice isn't wasted. Very good of you to share this info with me.
Cheers

Cascade · Post by **Cascade** » 07 Sep 2011, 19:54

chrisvenables wrote:It's true the Japanese like to buy new. That's because new is better and new Yamaha pianos are superior to old ones. The Japanese customer with the 35 year old U1 or U3 could still keep the piano and have it restored. They choose not to because when restored it still won't sound as good as the new model.

Your comment that you find a 1990 U3 and beyond too powerful for domestic use is really your defense of the tired weak sound that comes from (particularly in the bass) an old U1 or U3. That's why Yamaha changed the scaling, the overall design, the type of strings and the hammers. Early Yamahas had a poor bass, even when new and the bass deteriorates further as the piano ages. In a comprehensive piano test done for the Good Piano Guide in 1989/1990 involving over 40 new uprights we rated the U1 just 14th and the U3 11th, (despite being a major Yamaha dealer!) We even commented that the bass on the U1 was 'a bit thin'.

Any experienced technician can prep, tone and voice a new Yamaha to whatever tonal and power level a customer wants.

I have to say that i think newer isnt always better in terms of the Yamaha U series pianos merely from a musical perspective. In my opinion the older ones can sound (and play) just as good if not better than the newer models. Im not sure why, given the above suggests they are have been improving in design and construction all the time.

I have a mid 70s Yamaha U1 which i love. Ive owned various models including more recently a 2005 Yamaha U3S in pretty immaculate condition. By all rights this piano should have knocked the socks off my old U1 but having played the two and compared them over a month or so i just couldnt feel the 'magic' of the newer one as much as i wanted to. I ended up selling it! Even though its market value was significantly higher.

The 70s one is mellow and has alot more character. The bass is pretty good too so no quarrels there. Ive also played a newer Yamaha U1N (is this really a Kemble in disguise?!) and again the projection of sound is good but it just sounds a bit 'plasticky' and fake like there is no depth or true tone. Is this all just down to voicing and preparation? It just feels like its the piano as a whole thats responsible for the sound and not just the hammers but hey thats just my two pennies im no technician. If i find a newer U series Yamaha to rival my own ill keep it. Then again i may just cut to the chase and buy a Steinway (!).

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 07 Sep 2011, 21:46

Cascade wrote: The 70s one is mellow and has alot more character. The bass is pretty good too so no quarrels there. Ive also played a newer Yamaha U1N (is this really a Kemble in disguise?!) and again the projection of sound is good but it just sounds a bit 'plasticky' and fake like there is no depth or true tone. Is this all just down to voicing and preparation? It just feels like its the piano as a whole thats responsible for the sound and not just the hammers but hey thats just my two pennies im no technician. If i find a newer U series Yamaha to rival my own ill keep it. Then again i may just cut to the chase and buy a Steinway (!).

the problem with Yamaha is they have been to influenced by the big American market, who like their pianos bright to harsh Pianos are being cut down a tat in the UK but it is manly left to the retailer and that is were the problem is, as the margins are so small most can't afford to prep the pianos properly never mind voice it in the home to the clients wishes, like it use to be done. So a lot of 80, 90 and 00 are bright to metallic and in many cases very uneven

The other problem is Yamaha like Steinway is such a dominant name that when most buy they take it as is and accept that is how it should be. Most tuners are happy to go along with that as...

A, they don't voice
B, are too busy and just don't want the extra work
C. the client wont pay for a days work

Barrie,