Erard signed by Liszt

[Nikolai Vukovic]

Hi,

I need your dear help. Do you know which are the serial numbers of the Erard pianos that Liszt signed? There is this Erard bearing serial 50641 and the signature on the soundboard is quite clear but whether it is authentic is another thing.

If you could enlighten me on this I would greatly appreciate.

Nikolai

Here is the photo...



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[MarkGoodwinPianos]

*awaits info with baited breath!*

[NewAge]

I love a good mystery, usually whoodunnit's, but this makes a welcome change.

First off, unfortunately I'm unable to answer your question on the date that Listz signed any pianos.

Secondly I note that you have already had some feedback from the 'other' piano forum. A few theories have been put forward but no clear answers to your dilemma. As it's a site that has been known to have more than 15000 hits in a single day, I predict that you will get more replies and perhaps the answer you seek.

Even if we took the dates that Liszt is known to have had a contract with Erard, and say the serial number of the piano in question falls within those years, it may give a warm feeling but doesn't alter the fact that the autograph could well have been signed any time after the contractual dates. (And possible but unlikely that he signed it before his association with Erard).
Now I took a different view, put on my Deerstalker, and asked myself a very basis question. Does it look like a known signature of Liszt?
Initially I had no idea. However a little Googling brought up a few clues.
I now have on my desktop three authenticated documents signed by Liszt which I've enlarged x5, rotated and aligned with the photo you submitted.
The three authenticated signatures are very similar, notably the firm strokes of the capital letters F and L. One slight difference observed was the last 't' of Liszt; on 2 of the signatures the extended tail of the 't' protrudes directly downwards from the stem, on the 3rd signature the extended tail of the 't' is slightly detached from the stem. All the tails however take the form of a single straight line.
Comparing these with the signature on the piano, the 't' doesn't have an attached or detached, long, single, straight tail. Indeed there is what appears to be an embellishment after the 't' which is much longer than previously observed and which also loops back over itself. Completely different. Genuine or a facsimile? That is the question! I'm certainly not qualified to say. I suggest only a handwriting and/or period specialist could confirm the authenticity.
If it were me, I would purchase the piano only if I loved it's looks and sound, and wished to play on an interesting period instrument - irrespective of the 'Liszt' signature.
Please keep us advised of your search.

[Nikolai Vukovic]

Thank you for your time and if any idea comes to mind, will be glad to evaluate it. I did the same with the signature and agree totally with your observations. It takes a man to stretch uncomfortably to get to the far side of the soundboard on the bass section, roughly to the middle of the piano. It might have not been the ideal place where to autograph the piano and in doing so, some discrepancies to the original signature might arise.

I am seeking information from multiple sources which include not only forums.

Besides liking this Erard a lot as an instrument, it obviously fascinates me even further to know that it bears the signature of Liszt. Without this signature, it still would interest me so much since I can see the history of piano in the making and the instrument (being in good shape) is certainly inspiring. Nonetheless, if I could rest my mind on the authenticity of the signature and I could get to some documentation in this regard, I would be twice as happy to own this piano.

Nik

[Bill Kibby]

I will see what I can find out but there are, as with all famous composers, many false claims amd false signatures, and Erard pianos with dubious plaques and labels saying they were owned by famous people. I doubt if the signature is clear enough to be verified, and anyone could have written it. The number seems to suggest a date around 1880, so not unreasonable, but most pianos have more than one number inside. Is there a year marked on the left edge of the soundboard?

[Colin Nicholson]

I think like any good detective story, there needs to be an abundance and overwhelming amount of proof.... more photos. As some have assumed this piano is dated around 1876 - 1880 - no one has actually seen the 'serial number' yet. The signature strikes a small resemblance, but it looks like it has been partially underlined - whereas making some comparisons to Liszt's signature, there is no sign of that.... unless this is just a dirty mark? I also agree with Bill that this signature is very 'sketchy' now - and perhaps should rightly be handed over to a calligraphy or signature expert. Lets not just speculate.

I have also noticed that this subject has cropped up on another forum - about 2 years ago. I suspect that IF this piano had a definite Hungarian flavour to it, it would be behind some reinforced glass panel in a museum by now - with all the relevant paper work, and the true origin revealed much earlier than 2009.

This also could sound like the person (if selling the instrument) is simply just dangling a carrot in front of your nose; and may have been told themselves (when they bought the piano) - the same story - and before them.... the same story.

It looks good though - but the top lid could have been removed - perhaps ready for a piano concerto.... then Liszt came along, played his Rigolletto inbetween, then quickly signed it during his applause?? I've got in on DVD...

Just my opinion, but I think if this IS a genuinely signed piano by Liszt, then perhaps the following need to be outlined:-
1. Original Bill of Sale
2. Tuning & Service history records - all signed and dated.
3. Some kind of 'forensic' examination to the signature/ ink type etc.
4. How much this piano is selling for now.
5. Whereabout in the world the piano is situated, tracing its backward journeys.
6. Proof of photography showing Liszt playing this instrument/ or previous proof of ownership showing relevant paperwork.
7. Where did the previous owner get this information from, and what proof do they have?

I noticed that in an old Phillips auction book I have, one Erard grand sold for about £50!! - and yet, 2 years later, another one - full of history & ownership sold for a dazzling £8,000.00 !! - and that was back in the late 80's.

Sorry to ramble on!!

[Gill the Piano]

Sherlock - I mean, New Age; re the handwriting, don't forget he was writing ON WOOD with a dip pen. That would make any consistency of signature highly unlikely.
PS; You do know that smoking is bad for you, doncha? even a Meerschaum...

[Nikolai Vukovic]

Here are more photos...

[NewAge]

Sherlock - I mean, New Age; re the handwriting, don't forget he was writing ON WOOD with a dip pen. That would make any consistency of signature highly unlikely.
PS; You do know that smoking is bad for you, doncha? even a Meerschaum...

Gill,
I don't have a problem (Meerschaum with triple charcoal filters - elementary!) - but yesterday Watson was singing 'Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds', and you should see what he is smoking these days.......

[Nikolai Vukovic]

I would have probably not put up this post if I were certain of the authenticity of the signature. Then again, I am not the owner of this piano as yet but intend to be whether the signature is authentic or not (agreed New Age & Pianolove). A word about the present owner: he is a concert pianist who has collected a number of stunning pianos along the years and now, he is selling many of them to make a living. I have seen quite a few of his pianos and amongst them,

1790s Tomkison
1849 Pleyel
1860 (approx) Pleyel
Two 1870s Erards (one of which bears the mentioned signature)
Two 1880 Bluthners,
a Baldwin (which I think is from the beginning of the 20th century).

All of these were part of a collection he kept in just one of his three residences around the world. Apart from the above he owns other pianos of great historical value in his other two places of residence. He mentioned to me another valuable piano which was used by a famous composer to compose upon (he mentioned the name, but I forgot).

Regarding the signed Erard, the owner states that he discovered the signature as he was cleaning the soundboard from a thick layer of dust. Yesterday he sent me an email with his hypothesis, which I am copying to you:

"I discovered the signature by chance, and was at first bemused by it. I could see it appeared to be that of Liszt, and so I took photos and sent them to antique piano dealers in France. I suppose all anyone can say is that it appears to be the signature of Liszt. As you know, he was tout for Erards, and sold their pianos on commission. Their workbook shows that. In this case the pianos seems to have been sold upon commission by Burmuller - another pianist also selling on commission for Erards - and Liszt was no longer playing in public at this time. Sold in Paris, it is likely that, as he was there, he may have been a guest for dinner and signed the piano on request?"

This owner states that the previous owners did not know about the signature. This would explain why this Erard is not behind reinforced glass in a museum and that Liszt might have never played this instrument, leaving no photograph of himself playing it. The piano is selling for (only) Euro 4000 and I will be getting it only upon a deposit of just Euro 1000! In my opinion, nobody would trouble himself to place a carrot in front of my face just for a deposit of just Euro 1000!

Bill, since the piano is not in my hands right now it might take a few days to verify whether the date is found on the soundboard. I will let you know as soon as possible.

Regarding the signature, I quite agree with all the observations made. There is like an extra underlining mark but the rest bears great resemblance to Listz's signature.

Thank you all. Any help is most welcome.

[Bill Kibby]

I am not saying it is not genuine, I am saying that there appears to be nobody who can be absolutely sure on close examination, and certainly, internet enquiries thousands of miles from the piano cannot really answer the problem. The numbers are clear, and the date will be about right. I would love to see the actual, whole piano. If you want to pursue this through the Erard archives, I can make arrangements for you if you email me, but there will be a fee.

[Nikolai Vukovic]

I just received fresh information from the present owner:

I bought it from a woman who was living in the Vosges of France. She attended a concert of mine in Sury aux Bois where I was playing an Erard, and she mentioned that she had one. She wanted to update to a modern piano, and so she was prepared to sell it. She told me that she bought it locally, but that it had been in Paris until after WW2. She did not mention the signature and I had no idea about that until I saw it when cleaning some dust and muck that had lodged there during the moving. Someone previously tried to clean the soundboard and perhaps given up. there are some signs of surface varnish stratching.

The present owner said that he will try to remember the name of the owner of this Erard prior to himself.

He then explains that the date found on the piano is 1876.

Bill, I will be emailing you. Here is the only picture I have of the case (which was horribly restored). The medallion of the piano came off but the owner has it in his possession.

[Nikolai Vukovic]

Unfortunately, I did not take any good photos of the case, keys etc. I am supposed to visit the piano in the coming days and will upload immediately. If I get the chance, I will photograph his other pianos.

The owner of the said piano, a concert pianist, is so in love with historical pianos but he's giving them away slowly slowly. He can be described as a true romantic, he does not play modern pianos, does not play in modern halls and does not play with a rounded finger technique that is needed to for heavier modern day pianos.

My surname came from my grandfather, who was from Montenegro (ex-Yugoslavia). I might have played piano better if I were from Hungary maybe!

[Colin Nicholson]

That is a great background to the piano. Certainly all ties in with Liszt being around - just hope your hard work pays off.

[Nikolai Vukovic]

That's true Colin. Thanks for your wishes. If you get information, I will appreciate greatly.

[Nikolai Vukovic]

Definitely so - the seller is a cultured man with great taste. If you heard his pianos!!!... Some very interesting material from Sam Haywood I guess.

Re: Erard, the piano was purchased by its previous owner somewhere in or next to Sury aux Bois (next to Paris) and remained there beyond WW2. It seems that none of the previous owners knew about the signature as it was covered in dust. More investigations on the way...

Hah! Thanks about the name

[Nikolai Vukovic]

Photos of the Erard which bears the signature that might be Liszt's





Photos of the historical piano collection of the same seller - all housed in the same place

1790 Thomkison





Pleyel from the 1860s





Pleyel from 1846 - same model as Chopin's last Pleyel




The mentioned pianist who is selling his collection (some of which are pictured above) is calling to the Uk for a month or so as from tomorrow, 29th March 2011. He also has a collection of historical pianos in the Uk which are selling at incredible prices. Please e-mail me on nikolaivukovic@gmail.com if interested in knowing the details of the pianos, prices and contact details of the owner.
Meanwhile, any more information on the Erard in question (serial: 50641) is very welcome.