Second hand Kawai GM 10

[quinie]

Hi there,

I'm going to look at a Kawai GM 10 baby grand on Saturday.

It's priced at £4,500 and I wonder if anyone could advise me on any of the things I should look out for?

The seller says it is a 2009 model and in very good condition. I have looked at one brand new and loved it but couldn't stretch to the £7,000.00 price tag. I could just about manage the £4,500 though - although it would really really clean me out!

What do you think?

[Colin Nicholson]

I think that's a good 2nd hand price and obviously the tradesman has been prepared to drop the price. Also £7K is quite cheap for a new GM10. I spent 2 days with Kawai last year, and very impressed with their team of tuners & technicians. We also met Michio - a Japanese Kawai technician. On day 2, we re-regulated a GM10.

Even though its only 2 years old, I would still check the hammer heads - to make sure they haven't been 'pounded' away. If so, they should be refaced slightly. Also check warranty period - most offer around 5 years/ free tuning after delivery, and you should get a piano stool to match.... usually in black polyester?

Although the bass strings are very short, (and can be a bit wooley in sound), thats my personal opinion, but they are good pianos and will last for a long time - but make sure it is tuned every 6 months, and regulated/ serviced every 2-3 years.

Don't be afraid to ask the shop/trade to pull the mechanism out - it should be nice & clean and only minor groove markings on the hammers, where they hit the strings. Also check the una corda shift pedal (left pedal) - and middle sostenuto pedal. One or 2 I came across had a small fault with the right-hand key block - but I'm only being very finnicky!......

CN

[piano heads]

A bargain at £4,500 would go buy it asap,best baby grand around at its price point.

[MarkGoodwinPianos]

Is that private sale at £4500 or a shop?
If it's a shop turn up with £3800 in cash and see if they'll take it off you or say you'll shop around.
If it's a private seller offer £4000 promising a quick sale.

Take a piano tuner with you to inspect it though

[piano heads]

Is that private sale at £4500 or a shop?
If it's a shop turn up with £3800 in cash and see if they'll take it off you or say you'll shop around.
If it's a private seller offer £4000 promising a quick sale.

Take a piano tuner with you to inspect it though

What a strange post from a retailer,seems to be the King of idiot advice.

[MarkGoodwinPianos]

Why is it a strange post? That's what I did whilst shopping for wedding items and it worked OK. I found out the asking price and then walked in with 30% less in cash. It worked on some items but not on others. But it definitely does work sometimes. I just bought a 56 Reg Sprinter Luton with Tail lift. I tried it again and it worked quite well. The seller dropped over £700 for cash and I still got a VAT receipt.

My piano prices don't move for cash but it's always worth a try as I'm sure some dealers will drop the price for cash.

As a more general point, when I recently gave away a decent Bentley piano for free you complained saying

Can i have a free piano too,if i was selling that piano would want between £7-900 tuned,regulated and case refinished offering a 5 year warranty.Is this a forum for piano topics or the Salvation Army springs to mind?.

And now in this topic I've given a customer some advice on how to get the best price for a piano and you complain again saying "King of idiot". I'm not sure what angle you are coming from but I always try to help piano buyers achieve honest value as there are some ridiculously high margins on 2nd hand pianos out there. I saw a 1976 U3 for over £4000 online the other day. Crikey!

[piano heads]

Firstly,thought the forum was a vehicle for general piano related advice not a platform for the public to come on and be offered a free piano,secondly the object again and this is my view promoting asking for money off a piano is okay with me but does not have to be broadcast via this medium as it is happening all a round us no matter what your buying.Seems strange that a so-called quality secondhand Yamaha dealer would behave in this way on a public forum.Over to you Barrie.

[quinie]

Hi there!

Thank you so much for your replies! It is funny - I was thinking about turning up with £4K cash and going with that. It is a private sale though and not a shop.

I will definately look at the hammers and I will not be embarrassed to have a good look all around it to make sure everything looks fine.

I wondered too if it may still be under warantee - I will find out.

I'm so pleased that you don't think I should run a mile from this sort of baby grand and also pleased that the money seems okay - I will let you know how I get on!

Thanks again!

[quinie]

P S It does come with a stool!

[Dr Owl]

May I present a different point of view?

First, I should admit that I have never played a Kawai GM 10.

But it's only 150cm long. And every grand piano I've heard that is less than 170cm has had a weak bass, and a change in tone where the scale changes between the two bridges on the soundboard.

Wouldn't a 130cm high upright give a more pleasing tone than a baby grand?

Later,

John

[mdw]

Not sure i would say king of idiots but it does seem a little 2 faced to be happy to ask for a 30% discount from other traders but to say no when people do the same to you. Ive reached a point in life now when people take the **** I am quite happy to invite them to leave.

[Colin Nicholson]

Quinie

You seem to have your heart set on this piano, so go for it!
As its a private sale, I doubt if you will get warranty, unless the owner is either 'ex trade' or they can offer you some kind of warranty - but get it in writing if they offer anything. Usually though for a private sale, might be "sold as seen" (like buying a car). Try and get them to throw in a tuning aswell.

If you are paying up to 4K - then definitely get a piano tuner to check it over - its no good just yourself 'peering' over the top of the strings and looking at the mechanism (hammers) from the top, and NEVER try to remove the mech. yourself. On the GM10 you need to loosen 2 tiny screws (but don't remove) at either end of the fallboard hinge to lift it off, then remove key blocks/ front rail - and very carefully slide the whole mech. out with keyboard - any mistakes, and you'll snap the hammers off!
I would pay about £40 for someone to check it over thoroughly - and the tuner MUST tune some of it to check for tight wrest pins. Also (s)he will check over the mechanism thoroughly. Also the tuner should check the wooden threads under the key blocks - these must not be loose when tightened up. Even new ones coming out the factory can have dodgy threads - so get that checked out.

The tuner will know what to do - but just remind them about the things I've mentioned - main thing though...... HAMMERS + WREST PINS..

Mr KFC

[MarkGoodwinPianos]

£4k seems fair yes but definitely do have it inspected. The trouble is that if you get it inspected and you are still keen they will know you really want it and so may stick to their price of £4500 and you'll be stuck. So I'd suggest agreeing the price first and then get it inspected prior to payment... a bit like making an offer on a house and then getting it inspected prior to completion.

Insist on a full written report for the inspection, not just a quick tweak of the pins. There could be insect damage inside the action or under the keys so insist that the action is removed and carefully checked.

Mdw, I don't think it's 2 faced. Offering lower prices than other dealers is a very different matter to being non-negotiable at the point of sale.

[dancarney]

piano heads,

I believe your last post was intended to be a question. If you have a pertinent point to make, please do so with grammar. Without it, people won't even begin to take you seriously.

[quinie]

Hi there

Thanks again for the extra replies!

I am aware that a lot of people think the piano is too short to sound okay. I don't know what it is - I really liked the one I played a couple of years ago so really want to go and see this one. Also, it's in somebody's normal sized room so I am hoping to get a better idea of the sound than in a massive showroom?

I am v.grateful for all the advice and have taken it all on board.

Thanks again!

[dancarney]

It should be fine. We used to have a Kawai KG2D, albeit bigger than the GM10, it was certainly powerful for its size. It had a very focused sound.

Even though it is small, there are aspects that are present in a grand, that are not present in an upright.

Premium uprights cannot compete with a decent grand. The way a grand 'feels' (subjective!) is different, and in many cases, arguably better - this is from the view of a pianist. The sound will also be very different - just look at the difference in construction between a grand and an upright. I know that the rule of thumb is string length, but there are so many variables in choosing a piano. Room, for instance (as you mention), plays an equally important part as the instrument itself.

Enjoy choosing an instrument!

[Dr Owl]

It should be fine. We used to have a Kawai KG2D, albeit bigger than the GM10, it was certainly powerful for its size. It had a very focused sound.

But Dan, the KG2D is MUCH bigger than the GM10. It's 178cm long, rather than 150cm. I do not doubt for a moment that a KG2 can have a good tone: but I haven't yet heard a 150cm grand with a good tone.

The way a grand 'feels' (subjective!) is different, and in many cases, arguably better - this is from the view of a pianist.

Here I do agree. In most cases, the touch of a modern grand piano beats that of an upright.

I know that the rule of thumb is string length, but there are so many variables in choosing a piano.

The longest string of a GM10 is 105cm and the area of its soundboard is 0.98 sq m.
The longest string of a K6 upright is about 118cm and the area of its soundboard is 1.53 sq m.

To have a soundboard as large as a K6, a grand would need to be about 185cm in length. Since a grand's soundboard is not boxed in, such a grand piano would likely sound much better than an upright.

To have a longest string as long as a K6, a grand would have to be about 165cm in length. Its soundboard would then be about as large as that of a K5. By convention, this is the size at which a piano ceases being a baby grand.

As you say, this is just rule of thumb, and there are many other variables, not least of which is the wow factor of having a grand piano in your sitting room. But in our piano search, the shortest piano to sound really good was the Steinway Model M at 170cm.

Room, for instance (as you mention), plays an equally important part as the instrument itself.

For what it's worth, I came across a US rule of thumb that the largest grand you can fit in a sittiing room is one fifth of the length of the room plus the width. My perception is that that is a bit generous, and that one seventh of length plus width is about right.

Later,

John

[rgreig]

For what it's worth, I came across a US rule of thumb that the largest grand you can fit in a sittiing room is one fifth of the length of the room plus the width. My perception is that that is a bit generous, and that one seventh of length plus width is about right.

This feels about right to me. I have recently concluded that I cannot accommodate a grand piano - and I agree entirely that around 178cm is the minimum size that deliver acceptable sound to my ears. My room is about 21ft by 14ft which by the above calculation returns a maximum of 5ft (152cm).

Robert

[quinie]

Hi there - just thought I would let you know that the piano was sold before I even had a chance to look at it!

Gutted!!

Back to looking!

Thanks again!

[piano heads]

Shame,£4,500 was a good deal for that sort of quality no wonder it sold quickly if you see something else you can message me privately and get good honest piano advice without being subjected to the nonsense presented by one of the posters,who as no idea of piano values new or used, just waffles.

[piano heads]

Firstly,thought the forum was a vehicle for general piano related advice not a platform for the public to come on and be offered a free piano,secondly the object again and this is my view promoting asking for money off a piano is okay with me but does not have to be broadcast via this medium as it is happening all a round us no matter what your buying.Seems strange that a so-called quality secondhand Yamaha dealer would behave in this way on a public forum.Over to you Barrie.

No pleasing you is there? What have you got agianst Mark?

Personally nothing,business wise everything his posts devalue the many people who work in the piano trade as tuners/techs/polishers etc who make a living from their skills.He makes out making a profit from the sales of used pianos as being something wrong and he is in the same business.Could go on but as mentioned early nothing personal and do want to infringe on the Forums etiquette.

[vernon]

Something's wrong in the State of Denmark if people like piano heads can't make robust comments and not be snipped at for his grammar. Keep it up PH.
A Weber 150 has a bass out of all proportion to it's size @ about £5000

[piano heads]

piano heads,

I believe your last post was intended to be a question. If you have a pertinent point to make, please do so with grammar. Without it, people won't even begin to take you seriously.

[dancarney]

Face says it all! lol

[MarkGoodwinPianos]

Piano Heads says:

Personally nothing,business wise everything his posts devalue the many people who work in the piano trade as tuners/techs/polishers etc who make a living from their skills.He makes out making a profit from the sales of used pianos as being something wrong and he is in the same business.Could go on but as mentioned early nothing personal and do want to infringe on the Forums etiquette.

Your posts attack me personally. Remember your "King of Idiot" comment?
You have no doubt seen a lot in the piano trade but things have changed and when you see a posh Manchester shop proudly displaying an old Bently for £1200 that is confirmation that things need to continue changing. Customers are getting a bum deal from such shops. I prefer it when a dealer gives honest value rather than desperately trying to fund their high life. I've seen that first hand several times. Posh holidays, big fat cars, property folios. All funded by selling terrible pianos for high prices.

It's important that dealers make profit and that piano tuners and polishers are well paid. Tuners always seem to give honest value with their work and I would support the things Barrie says about raising the recommended fees that tuners should charge. My issue is with large, established shops making over £1000 profit on an old Bentley. That's not honest value in my opinion.

[piano heads]

I detect some jealousy here,if the big Manchester shop has repolished,tuned,regulated and is offering a 5 year warranty with piano so be it.Some dealers are able to offer a complete piano service,sales/tuning/action rebuilding/restringing/ cabinet repairing/inhouse removals etc so a Bentley at £1200 in my view is not profiteering.You are looking at the trade through used Yams tinted speks because that what you sell and your posts always lead to the same conclusion,theres a bigger picture out there.If you want to offer people free pianos do it privately or through your own website,instead of looking for glory through the forum or trying to improve your profile or seo.Why not respond to the posters using another name your posts are for self promotion and the advice is erratic.

[piano heads]

How much profit do you make on a used U1 or U3 or grand piano if you are working for less than a £1000 clear you would be as well shutting up shop today as there has not been the same volume of these sales over the past 3 years.If you want some free business advice you can contact me privately no charge.

[MarkGoodwinPianos]

Thanks for the offer of free business advice.
I'm OK for now but will bear that in mind for the future

[mdw]

My issue is with large, established shops making over £1000 profit on an old Bentley. That's not honest value in my opinion.

Do you mean profit ie whats left over after all costs have been coverd. My guess is the "profit" on a buy it in ship it out operation where nothing is added to the piano is far greater than running a workshop and overhauling pianos. Once you get into the labour, materials etc of overhauling as piano and doing the case theres not much pure "profit" left.

Would you rather buy a piano for £200 , spend 2 weeks and hundreds of pounds on it to sell for £1200 OR pay £2000 for a piano tune it and pop it up for £3000 the following day. Same difference in pounds between buy and sell but I think the 2nd example is making more than just a bit more "profit " thank the first. Which is the more honest?

Im happy for this to say in the public area or be moved to the trade section if the mods are unhappy with my comments.

[MarkGoodwinPianos]

I'm talking about margin on the individual piano, not whether the shop makes profit overall.

I do understand that large, city centre retail properties have very high running costs and so they need to charge high margins. From a business point of view, that is all fine and putting a 300-500% margin on a piano is what they have to do to succeed. But from a customer's point of view, a 300-500% margin isn't great value.

[mdw]

I'm talking about margin on the individual piano, not whether the shop makes profit overall.

Thats good as we are both talking about the same thing.

The margin between buy and sell cost on one piano includes lots of labour and materials and on the other example includes nothing but mark up. Yet the margin on both is the same sum. I would venture to say the retailer is taking a lot more pure profit on the buy it sell it example rather than the one thats had a load of overhaul work done on it. Either or neither may be correct for the customer but one has a LOT more profit than the other.

[piano heads]

No profit no business,plenty of overheads in Piano Industry some sales you make less some you make plenty my moto was "new for show secondhand for dough"one of the reasons i retired was did not want to be a bean-counter for black shiny pianos new or used.