Hammer repairs

[Barney]

Hi all

I should say at the start that I’m new to this forum and to pianos generally.

I’m looking for advice about a workable running repair to a couple of hammers in a piano that I have recently acquired. I’m not looking for a perfect solution - just something that will mean that the hammer plays the correct note when the key is pressed. This piano is very much a first toe in the water / something to learn the basics on.

I’ll set out the background but am conscious having read many other threads on this excellent forum that this will sound more like a list of crimes against pianos than anything else... in mitigation, all I can say is that the piano I’ve bought is the most my very limited budget would stretch to and about all I could fit in our tiny house. With that in mind I’d very much appreciate your advice.

I recently bought a piano off eBay (count 1 on the indictment). It is an early 1960s Kemble Minx (seller said 1960, serial number suggests 1962 by the look of the Kemble website) (count 2). Looking it over when it arrived (count 3), it appeared to be in excellent shape - one minor cosmetic dink but the insides looked pristine without being suspiciously new. I took some photos of the insides which are here (hope I've done that right).

When I played it (or pressed the keys, frowned, positioned tongue and tried to understand lesson one on the Beginner’s Piano Course), it sounded, for the most part, lovely, judging by the standards of a previously piano free household. Even my inept slapping sounded semi musical. However, one or two of the keys (well, three) seemed very quiet. Looking inside, everything seemed to be moving correctly - the hammers travelled in the same way as for the other keys, the strings were all there.

Looking more closely (and you couldn’t see this from above), I have realised that on each of the ‘quiet’ keys, the hammer felt had come loose. In all cases, the felt was still firmly attached on top, with the staple still in place but the bottom half was hanging down.

Can I repair this - to a workable degree and at minimal cost - myself?

Can a tuner or piano technician? I've only had the piano a week or so and am planning to get a tuner in after a couple of weeks when the piano has settled into its new home.

The keys in question (if it matters) are all at the upper end - top E, 2nd top G# and 2nd top B, so all ‘small’ hammers. I’ve seen some ‘guides’ online that suggest the felt could be glued back on but have also seen sites that seem to suggest the only course is ‘rehammering’ - is that really true here?

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

[Colin Nicholson]

Bit long winded eh? !!

So basically.... 'bottom line' - you need a couple of hammers sorting out?
Quite a common repair for hammer head felt to come loose on old pianos, and the staples to come loose also. Just call a piano guy - piano doesn't need to settle at this stage - the repair is more important.... then tune it later. The hammer(s) may need to be taken away to be repaired & clamped.

Go on, put your hand in your pocket....

[Barney]

Sorry, yes, I do tend to blather on a bit... thanks for the response.

I've no real aversion to putting my hand in my pocket as long as there's something left afterwards. Knowing now that it is something that can probably be dealt with without too much fuss, I've booked a chap to come out and have a look at it.

[Colin Nicholson]

Nice 1

The hammer repairs are fairly straightforward, but removing hammers yourself in the middle of a section can be fiddly. The bridle tapes also need to be temp. disconnected to separate the hammer from lever/undercarriage, then carefully unscrewing the hammer flange without damaging the jack.... so best leave it to a tech guy. As there is very little room between each hammer, it is important for each hammer & its felt to be aligned properly

There may be a reason though why the hammer felt came off in the first place? The mechanism looks in reasonable condition, but sometimes if previously kept in damp or extreme heated conditions, this can cause materials to perish & separate.

Hope all goes well.

[MarkGoodwinPianos]

so best leave it to a tech guy

Ignore this advice at your peril!
Hope it goes well. Ask around for a local tuner who comes recommended. Don't go for the cheapest

[Colin Nicholson]

I sometimes use the term 'tuner' and 'tech' synonymously - both meaning the same in a way, but there are tuners out there who don't do repairs, and I also know a lady 'tech' in Northumberland called Alexis who doesn't tune! - but she's an excellent technician/ restorer. She once fully restored a player piano, then got me to tune it!

[sussexpianos]

I have always found it odd for a technician not to be able to tune. There are many repairs which need a tuner and technician at the same time. Say for instance, leveling strings? Or toning? or restringing?

[Colin Nicholson]

Yes, I fully agree. When we did our MIT all those years ago, there was only 6 of us on the course, 4 lads & 2 lasses. One of the lasses, Helen (Alistair Lawrence's sister) did the full whack, but after a few weeks into the course, Alexis gave up on the tuning aspect. She, I suppose 'can' tune to a certain degree - but when we were practising our tuning, she was quite content in the other workshop pulling actions to bits! I am still not sure if she was awarded her Dip. - she did her repair exams fine, but can't remember if she did the tuning exam. She then later set up a workshop in Stannington, Northumberland (Johnkie might know her) - and more or less just did restorations - I believe partly for someone else. But I agree that even re-stringing then requires chipping up - suppose that bit is relatively easy, but she never entered into any tuning jobs - so perhaps she worked for someone else?

Perhaps she passed on the basis of good marks in the other sections i.e. restoration/ regulation/ health & safety/ making tools without having to do the tuning exam - but these days, the 2 must come together. Anyway, its about 20 years since I saw Alexis, and never know what she's up to these days - then, she was only about 21 years of age, where most of us were in our 30's - 40's.

[Johnkie]

Interesting post Colin - Although I've been up here in the North East for 41 years I've never come across or heard about any females in our trade locally, and can't recall any workshops in Stannington either .... would love to know more

[Colin Nicholson]

Hi Johnkie

Now then.... this was about 15 years ago & probably not be there any more. The lass was called Alexis Moore (aged mid 30's now), originally from Mitford (lived/lives on a local farm), and from what I can remember, she either rented or worked for someone in a unit near where the Stannington Children's hospital used to be. Back in the olden days (c.1960 - 1979) by grand father used to be the Secretary for the hospital - Eric Chrisp & him & my nan lived in a huge bungalow 'rent & heating free' ! - he retired in 1979, and sadly died in 1993 aged 78, but had no connection with pianos, just a coincidence Alexis 'pitched her tent' there!

Obviously, times have changed, the hospital was knocked down years ago (around the mid - 80's) - and I think they also built houses there - not sure. Alexis invited me at one time to see the workshop, but I never got around to it. Wonder if that can jog your memory?

[MarkGoodwinPianos]

Annie Amos - Surrey
Julie Bell - Edinburgh
Jennifer Johnson - Herts

Those are 3 female tuners I've hired to handle "free" first tunings in the past couple of years. I didn't set out looking for women tuners I hasten to add!

[Johnkie]

I've just realised that there seems to be is a huge difference in standpoint from that of a tuner/technician (sole trader) and that of the tuner/technician that is a dealer This topic alone seems to identify this difference. There appears to be two completely different views on "hammer repairs" .... you have those that are saying "don't take the bread out of the professional's mouth" and the other side of the coin offers free advice on how to go about doing repairs. I often get the impression that these two points of view are fighting each other, and wondered why. Each standpoint is genuinely valid, but comes from a slightly different viewpoint. The sole trader (me)has nothing else to consider, but reputation and enough work and income to lead a comfortable life, where as the dealer has stock, staff, competition from other dealers, removal and delivery issues, reps, and agents etc etc - I'm sure the list could go on and on!
It's quite clear that the likes of our friends Colin and Mark know far more about people in the trade than I do .... I've lived here in the North for years and have no idea who else tunes on "my patch" apart from the really good old timers (who sadly have gone on to tune harps) or the really bad ones .... the ones that get a good reputation ... for being bad

So ... I can now appreciate how certain posters on this site may feel a little aggrieved when the like of me offer free advice and recommend particular pianos that we have had experience with, and how it may seem to be preferring a particular dealer, but the truth is that the sole trader hasn't a fraction of the problems that the dealer has, and has only the customer to satisfy and reputation to think about. I'm afraid to say that I will continue to give advice freely as I have always done, but would state that I do this not to take income away from anyone else, or for any personal agenda .... just because I am prepared and able to do it in order to help others, and in no way, shape or form, to cause hardship for others.

[NewAge]

I've just realised that there seems to be is a huge difference in standpoint from that of a tuner/technician (sole trader) and that of the tuner/technician that is a dealer This topic alone seems to identify this difference. There appears to be two completely different views on "hammer repairs" .... you have those that are saying "don't take the bread out of the professional's mouth" and the other side of the coin offers free advice on how to go about doing repairs. I often get the impression that these two points of view are fighting each other, and wondered why. Each standpoint is genuinely valid, but comes from a slightly different viewpoint. The sole trader (me)has nothing else to consider, but reputation and enough work and income to lead a comfortable life, where as the dealer has stock, staff, competition from other dealers, removal and delivery issues, reps, and agents etc etc - I'm sure the list could go on and on!
It's quite clear that the likes of our friends Colin and Mark know far more about people in the trade than I do .... I've lived here in the North for years and have no idea who else tunes on "my patch" apart from the really good old timers (who sadly have gone on to tune harps) or the really bad ones .... the ones that get a good reputation ... for being bad

So ... I can now appreciate how certain posters on this site may feel a little aggrieved when the like of me offer free advice and recommend particular pianos that we have had experience with, and how it may seem to be preferring a particular dealer, but the truth is that the sole trader hasn't a fraction of the problems that the dealer has, and has only the customer to satisfy and reputation to think about. I'm afraid to say that I will continue to give advice freely as I have always done, but would state that I do this not to take income away from anyone else, or for any personal agenda .... just because I am prepared and able to do it in order to help others, and in no way, shape or form, to cause hardship for others.

Good post Johnkie!

[vernon]

Johnkie
I'll always give advice to anyone.
I'm a dealer,tuner and good tech.
If somebody wants to restore an ancient crap piano for the fun of it,I'll pitch in.
If somebody wants to pick my brains to pull a stroke, I'm hesitant.
If somebody wants to try my stock to compare elsewhere and get a cut price I get v. grumpy and unhelpful.
If a dealer outwith the area sells a cut price piano in my manor there will be very slow service there.
Human nature isn't it
xx

[Johnkie]

Vernon you come across as one of the good guys, who are prepared to straddle the line when it comes to helping out and you have my un-reserved respect. I wasn't for one single moment implying that either way of doing things was wrong, merely that one or two members sometimes seem a little too forceful, and, rather than just being able to express their own valid views, go on to be over the top in responding to other points of view, appearing to not even try to see things from a different perspective.

I too, would get rather upset if I were a dealer/supplier who thought that their business was being undermined and their profits affected by dirty dealings or tricksters. My particular "red rags" are those that wake up one morning and decide to become a piano tuner and then go on to leave a trail of unhappy clients because the client can't (or wont) wait for a week or two for me to fit them in. I'm even more annoyed with the client though, who, because they've been a client for so many years, I have given discounted tuning fees. I never turn my back on them, but I make sure they then pay the full going rate and charge for even minor extras that I wouldn't normally charge for from then on.

[Bob Pierce]

Kemble pianos of this age suffer from lifting hammer felt. Once you repair a few the next weather change will lift off a few more. You can repair with a decent glue and T-rivit the hammer but it is only a temp repair. I would replace the hammers with a new set and that is a technicians job, sorry.

[sussexpianos]

Im repairing lifting hammers on a B&R modern piano, sold by a local firm which had put a lot of nails in to make them hold. I have never found it easy to clamp and glue these hammers, they will soon come off again. I refused to tune it and carry out any minor repairs, only a full set, which they went for.