Bansall and Sons v Bremar upright

lou-lou33 · Post by **lou-lou33** » 08 Jan 2011, 19:17

Hello, I am new to this site and was just after a wee bit of advice.

I have been offered a Bansall and Sons Piano or a Bremar piano - both look to be around the same age (old).

I have not seen either in the flesh, so I realise they could both be complete wrecks (internally). The people giving them away don't know whether they are overstrung or straight strung, or whether they are Underdamped or overdamped. So, my question is this: In your experience as people who know about piano makers, which of the 2 is considered to be the better make, or are they both as bad as eachother! Also, would the Bremar be more likely to be overstrung and underdamped? I know you can't tell me which to go for, as you haven't seen them, but I just wondered which is generally considered to be the better make.

Many thanks in advance for your time. Best wishes.

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 08 Jan 2011, 20:04

it all depend on how they have been looked after I have a few Bansall verts on my round most not so good but one is very nice upto pitch and plays very well the owner is Grade 5 and loves it However, a few are only fit for the 5 November

You need a tuner to look at it just tthe cost of moving the piano is quite expensive these days

Barrie

lou-lou33 · Post by **lou-lou33** » 08 Jan 2011, 21:45

Thanks Barrie. You're right, I've had a quote of £96 just to move the piano from one village to the next! I don't expect a free piano to be great, but I would like it if all the notes played and it held tune. Do you know if Bremar is a respected make? Many thanks.

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 08 Jan 2011, 23:15

Make is manly irrelevant at that age like asking what's a 1970 ford cortian like as a car just as many problems with a car as there could be with the piano

Barrie,

MarkGoodwinPianos · Post by **MarkGoodwinPianos** » 09 Jan 2011, 15:35

Find out if it's overdamped. If it is, don't even think about it.
You can get a free underdamped one if you look around.

mdw · Post by **mdw** » 09 Jan 2011, 18:50

lou-lou33 wrote: I've had a quote of £96 just to move the piano from one village to the next!

Thats the right sort of money. You are going to have 2 people who know what they are doing, have all the kit and are insured, for a minimum of 1 hour if not a lot more. You could try the man and van type who dont know what they are doing but will be cheap.
PS Over 50% of the insurance repairs I do for insurance companys are for that type of mover. As the saying goes you pay peanuts, you get monkeys. You would be better off moving it yourself.

lou-lou33 · Post by **lou-lou33** » 09 Jan 2011, 22:31

Hi, thank you for your replies. I appreciate what you are saying about the make being irrelevant - I suppose it's more relevant to know how well the piano has been looked after, stored, etc.

I didn't buy the Bremar, as I think it was overdamped (I have included a photo - is it overdamped?)

Hoping to view the Bansall and Sons next week. No doubt I will have more questions then!

Thanks again.

: Overdamped?

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 10 Jan 2011, 00:28

Yes over damped

Barrie

MarkGoodwinPianos · Post by **MarkGoodwinPianos** » 10 Jan 2011, 12:20

Don't let it in your house!
Overdamped
Rusty pins
Rusty strings
Very dusty
Probably stinks judging by the amount of dust

lou-lou33 · Post by **lou-lou33** » 10 Jan 2011, 23:17

Thanks again for your replies - I am slowy learning what to look for when buying a used piano!

I think I will give the Bansall and Sons piano a miss too, as from a general bit of research, they seem to be mostly straight strung (which apparently is not so good as overstrung?)

My quest continues...

MarkGoodwinPianos · Post by **MarkGoodwinPianos** » 11 Jan 2011, 11:17

I find that I could live with a straight-strung piano if I was on a tight budget but I couldn't live with an overdamper. Hope that helps.

Where do you live?
If you are willing to pay the transport costs from Manchester I'll give you a fully working upright piano, cross strung and underdamped for free. It won't be great but it will look OK and will do the job you need.

If interested please reply below letting me know what town you are from and whether you would like the piano taking to a groundfloor room

Cheers
Mark

MarkGoodwinPianos · Post by **MarkGoodwinPianos** » 11 Jan 2011, 16:30

I've received the PM thanks. My movers could deliver the piano for £170 assuming it's a groundfloor location. You are of course very welcome to shop around and try and find a cheaper price.

Just to be clear these are the movers that I pay to move my pianos. They are not my employees or anything like that. I wouldn't make a penny from this.

What sort of timescale are you looking to work to?

lou-lou33 · Post by **lou-lou33** » 12 Jan 2011, 11:24

Hi Mark,

Thanks again for your offer. The delivery charge is reasonable considering it's all the way from Manhester. Do you think you will have suitable pianos in stock in a couple of months? We are sorting out our house at the moment, so probably best to wait until spring. Is it okay to contact you then?

Best wishes.

MarkGoodwinPianos · Post by **MarkGoodwinPianos** » 12 Jan 2011, 11:28

Yes that will be fine.
Please reply to this topic when you are ready to go ahead and I'll see what I can get hold of for you.

lou-lou33 · Post by **lou-lou33** » 24 Jan 2011, 14:23

Hi Mark,

Just wondering if you had any pianos which you think suitable for my needs at the moment?

I would so love a piano with a gentle, warm tone and light touch - nothing too bold or brash. Do you think I can find the qualities I am looking for in free piano?

Many thanks for your help.

Colin Nicholson · Post by **Colin Nicholson** » 24 Jan 2011, 16:00

As Mark has suggested - keep away from over-damped if possible. Whatever piano you choose, make sure it is under-damped & overstrung if possible. A good customer of mine now managed to get an upright Bechstein FREE from Freecycle - few issues with the mechanism, and the model 10 is a 10 min job to remove the action.

Here is a picture of a piano under-damped & over-strung....

Notice that the hammers are not obscured by lots of wires at the front, and you can't see the dampers here as they are tucked up behind & beneath the hammers. Although this may be an old piano, there are less problems likely to evolve with this kind of design of movement.
The deadly sins are: Over-damped/ straight-strung / 3/4 frame/ spring & loop

Better design: Under-damped/ over-strung/ full iron frame/ tape action.

Regards

Colin

lou-lou33 · Post by **lou-lou33** » 24 Jan 2011, 17:04

Thanks Colin, lovely clear picture.
Wow - a free Bechstein! That is a rare find I'm sure. I have never had the opportunity to play a Bechstein, I wonder what tone they have?

MarkGoodwinPianos · Post by **MarkGoodwinPianos** » 14 Mar 2011, 17:27

Hi Lou Lou
I've been struggling to figure out the best way to handle this. Sorry for the delay.
I currently have at least 3 or 4 pianos that I'd be happy for you to have free of charge. However, I'm going to suggest that before you make a choice you book a technician close to my shop to come and inspect them for you and help you make a choice. It's always hard to gauge people's expectations when it comes to free/cheap pianos so if you had an independent tech to help you then I'd be much happier.

We are ready to go ahead if you are happy to hire a tech to help you with the choice.
Any thoughts on that?

Thanks

Mark

piano heads · Post by **piano heads** » 15 Mar 2011, 17:04

Can i have a free piano too?.Beginning to think this is a charity site.

lou-lou33 · Post by **lou-lou33** » 18 Mar 2011, 12:05

Hi Mark,

Yes, absolutley, a technician sounds like a great idea. I will get on to it.

MarkGoodwinPianos · Post by **MarkGoodwinPianos** » 18 Mar 2011, 12:34

Hi again
I'm glad you are happy with that approach. I think it will help keep things smooth and happy.

I have a good handful of candidates in at the moment but every now and again they all get snapped up by a trade buyer. So I can't guarantee these will be here all that long. So I'm thinking it could work well if your chosen piano tuner contacts me directly at markgoodwinpianos@gmail.com and I'll invite him round as soon as there are enough pianos for him to look at (as there is now)

I hope the forum don't mind us doing this publically? It should be an interesting look at someone's efforts getting hold of a decent-ish piano for free

lou-lou33 · Post by **lou-lou33** » 18 Mar 2011, 14:16

Hi Mark,

I have emailed a piano technician, and am awaiting their reply. I will keep you posted...

MarkGoodwinPianos · Post by **MarkGoodwinPianos** » 18 Mar 2011, 14:46

Update:
Independent piano tech coming to inspect what I've got available this coming Tuesday.

MarkGoodwinPianos · Post by **MarkGoodwinPianos** » 22 Mar 2011, 14:16

Update: The technician has been to view the piano. Of the 4 pianos available I suggested that the Bentley was the best one and the technician agreed. I've uploaded 2 photos to my facebook page which you can see here:

The technician said that he is going to contact you by email about the piano.

MarkGoodwinPianos · Post by **MarkGoodwinPianos** » 22 Mar 2011, 14:22

lou-lou33 wrote:Hi Mark,

Just wondering if you had any pianos which you think suitable for my needs at the moment?

I would so love a piano with a gentle, warm tone and light touch - nothing too bold or brash. Do you think I can find the qualities I am looking for in free piano?

Many thanks for your help.

Just to respond to this comment of yours from a while back. The Bentley has a nice soft action and a dainty, discrete tone. It isn't overly bright and it isn't overly mellow and it isn't overly loud or overly soft. It's a very accessible piano in that it feels easy to play and the sound is nice.

piano heads · Post by **piano heads** » 22 Mar 2011, 15:57

Can i have a free piano too,if i was selling that piano would want between £7-900 tuned,regulated and case refinished offering a 5 year warranty.Is this a forum for piano topics or the Salvation Army springs to mind?.

lou-lou33 · Post by **lou-lou33** » 22 Mar 2011, 17:22

Hi Mark,
thanks for the pictures. I have not come across a Bentley before, but the way you describe the sound and action is just what I'm after. If it's okay with you, I am going to get a couple more quotes for delivery, and then we can arrange a time for collection. Thanks ever so much for your help with this.

NewAge · Post by **NewAge** » 22 Mar 2011, 20:14

piano heads wrote:Can i have a free piano too,if i was selling that piano would want between £7-900 tuned,regulated and case refinished offering a 5 year warranty.Is this a forum for piano topics or the Salvation Army springs to mind?.

I've read and re-read this, and must confess to not understanding it.

Are you saying that if you had a free piano you would spend money on it to tune, regulate and restore the case and then sell it for approx 7-900 pounds? If so I can't see any problem in that.

On the other hand we have a dealer who has several 'skip-worthy' pianos, who doesn't want the hassle of spending any money in order to sell the piano at whatever profit. So he has opted to donate the piano to someone on an open forum whom we presume has little resources. I can't see any problem in that either.

If I am missing something fundamental, please enlighten me.

MarkGoodwinPianos · Post by **MarkGoodwinPianos** » 22 Mar 2011, 23:03

lou-lou33 wrote:Hi Mark,
thanks for the pictures. I have not come across a Bentley before, but the way you describe the sound and action is just what I'm after. If it's okay with you, I am going to get a couple more quotes for delivery, and then we can arrange a time for collection. Thanks ever so much for your help with this.

Yes of course. I don't mind who moves the piano at all.
As you've just seen this is a piano that would be for sale for at least £700 in a shop. If it was tarted up a bit, tuned, regulated and voiced it would sell in Forsyth's Manchester for over £1000.

Decent pianos can be had for free. You just have to know where to find them. I don't know if anyone else is reading this but I have plenty more free pianos available. I can sell these within the trade for £50 - £150 but I'd rather give them to a good home than see a dealer make 400% (and the rest) profit on them.

Dealers have to make money. We have rent to pay and homes to keep... but so do customers so it's good to be in a position to help folk out with pianos like this.

I've enjoyed this transaction so far and hope to repeat it many more times. I gave a brand new Gors & Kallman to a local pub last year because I didn't like it enough to sell it. It was almost a very good piano but not quite. So I couldn't sell it and gave it away to a skint pub instead because they hosted a piano night once per week on a shocking old battered woolley sounding heap of junk that couldn't cut through the atmosphere.

Am i waffling? Sorry I'll stop now

lou-lou33 · Post by **lou-lou33** » 23 Mar 2011, 13:32

Hi Mark,

I have arranged a courier to collect the piano, but he would like to contact you directly to arrange collection details, he doesn't think he will be able to collect it until next week - is that okay? Also, is the Royton address on your website the correct collection address?

I too have enjoyed this transaction, and appreciate its genuine nature. Many thanks.

MarkGoodwinPianos · Post by **MarkGoodwinPianos** » 23 Mar 2011, 15:16

A courier sounds ok to me but you should probably expect it to be bashed about a bit as he probably won't have any of the proper kit for safe smooth piano deliveries. I'll help him load it onto his van but make sure you have a couple of burly blokes at the other end ready to carry it into the place. Thankfully it's a relatively light piano but there is still an increased risk of bashing the piano or your doorways and halls (and trapping fingers!) by not using a proper piano mover. But I don't mind that if you are happy to do it that way.

The courier should text (not phone if poss) me on 07763 727763 and collect from Unit 2, Stadium Works, Dogford Rd, Royton, OL2 5UT. He should turn immediately right through the white gates as soon as he has turned onto dogford road. Ask him not to travel without first booking an approximate collection time with me.

Nearly there now

Thanks
Mark

lou-lou33 · Post by **lou-lou33** » 23 Mar 2011, 19:25

Hi Mark,

Sorry, I referred to them as couriers but they are actually a firm of piano movers, based in south Yorkshire (I would give the name but I'm not sure whether that would be classed as advertising?). I have spoken to the chap today, and he was going to get in touch with you to arrange a collection time. They were able to give a very reasonable quote because they travel the route quite frequently. I will pass on your contact details straight away.

I hope this is okay? Do let me know if you encounter any problems and I will sort them. Thanks Mark.

MarkGoodwinPianos · Post by **MarkGoodwinPianos** » 24 Mar 2011, 08:25

I've just checked my voicemail and it seems they wanted to collect yesterday. I was rushing around a lot yesterday so didn't spot that voicemail come in until just now. Sorry about that!!

I'll text them now and see when they can collect again.
I'll keep you posted.

Thanks
Mark
p.s. I don't think it's advertising to say who youve booked. It sounded like P K P Pianos on the voicemail but it was a bit crackly so I couldn't be sure.
P.p.s. Found them! http://apkpianomovers.vpweb.co.uk/Home.html Never heard of them before but they look good

lou-lou33 · Post by **lou-lou33** » 24 Mar 2011, 11:01

Hi Mark,

Yes - they're the ones. I spoke to James (from APK) last night, and he said they happened to be passing Oldham so they thought they'd try and collect - but it's no problem because they travel the M6 quite frequently so he is aiming to collect sometime next week - he said he was going to text you on Monday to hopefully arrange a convenient collection time for towards the end of next week. Does that sound okay? I really don't want this collection to turn into a headache for you, so please let me know if you feel that is happeneing!

Also, I was hoping to pick your brains about positioning of the piano. It is going against an internal wall (no radiator) on laminate flooring. Now, would I be best to lay a piece of carpet down for the piano to sit on? I don't mind about the laminate being dented, I am more concerend with which flooring type will give the best acoustics.

Thanks Mark.

MarkGoodwinPianos · Post by **MarkGoodwinPianos** » 24 Mar 2011, 11:04

That's fine. Next week should be fine yes and don't worry it's no inconvenience at all. As for positioning I wouldn't put anything under the piano. The Piano isn't overly bright sounding so I don't think you will need to dampen the sound with a mat or anything.

Keep in touch

Colin Nicholson · Post by **Colin Nicholson** » 25 Mar 2011, 16:54

Liverpool - Oldham.....Only just over 40 miles away! nowt is that!

MarkGoodwinPianos · Post by **MarkGoodwinPianos** » 27 Mar 2011, 09:27

I'm happy to repeat this process dozens of times for private individuals seeking a free working piano.

NewAge · Post by **NewAge** » 27 Mar 2011, 10:33

MarkGoodwinPianos wrote:I'm happy to repeat this process dozens of times for private individuals seeking a free working piano.

Mark,
I personally think what you are doing is admirable - assisting those with limited resources to get a piano otherwise destined for the skip.
However I would humbly suggest that in order to avoid more daggers being drawn in the future by the 'Anti Mark Brigade', that you proceed by use of this forums Private Messages (PM) only. Other forums insist that private discussions between individuals must only be by PM, thus avoiding diversions of the original subject matter. Somewhat surprising that it's not enforced by this forum's moderators, as there are over 20 posts here unrelated to the original Bansell & Sons v Bremar request for info!
Just a thought, so you can dispense of ammunition and hang up your flak jacket.

Bon weekend.

MarkGoodwinPianos · Post by **MarkGoodwinPianos** » 28 Mar 2011, 07:02

Thanks NewAge,
For future situations like this I could just ask the "buyer" to create a new topic specifically for getting a free piano. That way it wouldn't be classed as off topic. As for daggers, I'm used to them and am not bothered by them.

I wouldn't want to do it by PM as that would hide away the fact that you can easily get a free piano that is near enough as good as what you might pay serious money for in many piano shops. The market has changed, these old pianos have has their value massively eroded. See my "GAME" topic the other day, it shows an excellent quality Eavestaff piano going for £27 on ebay. Those go for over £1000 in established shops. I don't think I'd want to give one of those away for free as they are a step up in quality from the kind of piano that I'm offering for free.

This needs doing out in the open to show people that they don't have to settle for straight-strung overdampers in order to get an affordable piano. The full process needs to be kept in public so people can see how practical issues such as delivery can be arranged and so that people know it does work through to completion and delivery.

Sorry for waffling.

kswaby10 · Post by **kswaby10** » 28 Mar 2011, 09:22

Love the pics shared here. Thanks for posting.

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 28 Mar 2011, 19:56

MarkGoodwinPianos wrote:Thanks NewAge,
For future situations like this I could just ask the "buyer" to create a new topic specifically for getting a free piano. That way it wouldn't be classed as off topic. As for daggers, I'm used to them and am not bothered by them.

Please don't do that. The forum is not for selling pianos or giving them away if you have pianos to give away put them on the piano for sale trade section and mark them as Free and Sold as Seen to cover yourself You may then point to them from a post in a PM

Barrie,

MarkGoodwinPianos · Post by **MarkGoodwinPianos** » 29 Mar 2011, 07:12

That's no fun lol. I want to do it for friendly forum members, not your average bargain hunter who expects the world for nothing and then shows no gratitude. I'll maybe just do the same approach as in this topic by waiting until someone comes along saying "should I accept this free piano" and then tell us that it is an 1880 straight-strung overdamper from the local farmer's barn. I could parp up at that point and offer them something better for free

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 29 Mar 2011, 08:50

MarkGoodwinPianos wrote:That's no fun lol. I want to do it for friendly forum members, not your average bargain hunter who expects the world for nothing and then shows no gratitude. I'll maybe just do the same approach as in this topic by waiting until someone comes along saying "should I accept this free piano" and then tell us that it is an 1880 straight-strung overdamper from the local farmer's barn. I could parp up at that point and offer them something better for free

Then do it as a PM like the other retailers do Offering a piano for fee is just the same as saying I can sell that make £100.00 cheaper than that shop. That is one way of getting you banned.

Barrie,

MarkGoodwinPianos · Post by **MarkGoodwinPianos** » 29 Mar 2011, 12:47

Cheers Barrie.
I don't have time to do this sort of thing by PM. Doing it within the forum helped me do it quick, easy and fun. But it's fine, I understand you have forum policies and am happy to abide by them.

MarkGoodwinPianos · Post by **MarkGoodwinPianos** » 29 Mar 2011, 13:09

Update:
The piano was collected just now by APK piano movers. It only just fit in the van but is now safely loaded and ready for delivery.

lou-lou33 · Post by **lou-lou33** » 29 Mar 2011, 13:34

Hi Mark,

That's great! Thanks so much for letting me know - hope it all went okay.

I will be in touch as soon as it arrives. Thanks again Mark.

athomik · Post by **athomik** » 29 Mar 2011, 14:08

MarkGoodwinPianos wrote:Update:
The piano was collected just now by APK piano movers. It only just fit in the van but is now safely loaded and ready for delivery.

Is that a washing machine taking up most of the back? Mind you, in this economic climate, it helps to diversify.

MarkGoodwinPianos · Post by **MarkGoodwinPianos** » 29 Mar 2011, 14:14

I'm not exactly sure what that big unit is in the van. I didn't like to ask and I didn't want to snoop around.
But yes it does look like the underside of a washing machine.

MarkGoodwinPianos · Post by **MarkGoodwinPianos** » 30 Mar 2011, 13:22

Hi PianoLove,
I am very happy to provide you with a free piano in good working order that is overstrung and underdamped. However, I won't have time to handle it via PM or email. I set aside some time each day to do a quick check of this forum because I very much enjoy the community feel of this place. So I make time for that and I enjoy it. However, I don't have any time available for walking through the process of choosing, photographing and helping arrange delivery of a free piano via PM or email. When it comes to one-to-one digital communication I have to devote my efforts to replying to any emails that might come in from paying customers.

I don't know if that explanation makes sense but I enjoy the community feel of posting in a public forum. Doing it all behind closed doors is not fun in the same way.

I will always have something knocking about though. Perhaps if I chose I what I felt to be the best option and then listed in the UK Piano "pianos for sale" section and posted a link here that might be acceptable to Barrie. But even then I would only be willing to take questions via the forum, not email or PM.

Fingers crossed we can sort something out for you.
I hope the forum admin(s) realise that this is not a profitable venture. It's just putting the forum to good use to help people with zero budget get a piano that I don't mind letting go for free which is still a half-decent piano. If I were a proper capitalist I'd sell these for £150 - £500 but I'm not a pure capitalist so I'm happy to give things away from time to time.

MarkGoodwinPianos · Post by **MarkGoodwinPianos** » 30 Mar 2011, 14:24

That all sounds fine with me. Yes you could pop and have a nosey when I have a few in to choose from.
I'm not sure how much delivery would be sorry. I don't know how much APK charged Lou.

Let me know when you are ready to move on this and we'll see what we can sort out.
Thanks

Mark