"Robert Maver Pianoforte and Music Seller, Glasgow"

[Tomasz Zaleski]

Good Day,
I have a Student that just inherited her Old Family Piano, Square if I may add. We have many Clues but no luck in finding History. The Piano has in the center "Robert Maver Pianoforte and Music Seller, Glasgow" I know that Robert Maver was selling pianos in the 1830's, so that could be the sale date, but how about Maker? or any other history?. It can easily be a John Broadwood Square piano Circa 1700"s, unfortunately the name is not found. Interestingly enough, we have found many handwritten Old English letters and words in some areas of the piano. Please if you can, Look at the pictures, We would gladly appreciate any information that can be found.

Many thanks
Respectfully
Zaleski

[Colin Nicholson]

Without the manufacturer's name and serial number, it is virtually impossible to reveal any history or date. However, providing 'history' about a personally owned piano is impossible.I believe that around 1860 onwards, many designs of square piano were 'broader & heavier' looking, and corners were rounded off.
If you can remove the mechanism safely, there may be clues inside. I don't think numbers/letters will help here, but there may be decal or some sort on the soundboard under the strings?

Bill may be able to provide you with more information

[Bill Kibby]

I have no record of Maver being in business in the 1830s, he does not appear in my Glasgow lists 1809-1852, but by 1864, he is listed as a Pianoforte Maker & Seller. The piano is almost certainly earlier than 1864, and sold secondhand. It would have been much darker. However, it is not anything like as early as 1700s, the rounded corners are not usually seen until after about 1817, and this looks more like 1840s. The legs are the typical London legs used in thousands of Square Pianos, Grand Pianos and Cottage Pianos from about the 1840s to the 1880s.

It could well be a Broadwood, many were sold in Scotland, but it doesn't look like one, and the fret design is not usual for Broadwood. It was not uncommon for a dealer to buy in pianos from a wholesaler and put his own name on them.

Are there any numbers inside?

There is a somewhat similar Broadwood 1839, with different legs, at

http://www.powerhousemuseum.com/collect ... irn=238185

but it has the typical Broadwood style of fret panel.

[NewAge]

There is a somewhat similar Broadwood 1839, with different legs, at

http://www.powerhousemuseum.com/collect ... irn=238185
but it has the typical Broadwood style of fret panel.

Bill,
It's a pity that photo wasn't a contender for a caption competition. I would have suggested 'Jake The Peg'.

[Tomasz Zaleski]

Good Day,

Many Thanks for the Replies.. There is a number 600 on the left side of the board( inside the piano, close to the harp), Followed by a Beautiful Capital B.

[Tomasz Zaleski]

.. Here is the "B"

[Bill Kibby]

I don't know where these are in the piano, but they don't look like anything that will help us. The way the front part of the lid overlaps with the front is unfamiliar to me, I can't remember one quite like that, but I will have a look.

[Colin Nicholson]

Exactly what I said in my post !!!! Numbers & letters do not always help (esp. when so close up) - is anyone listening out there? - oh good, well, as suggested before, if you know how to remove the action mechanism safely (or get a tech guy to remove it), there may be clues in there

[Bill Kibby]

No Colin, but SOME numbers and letters do help. Am I right in saying that when you close the piano, the front flap doesn't just cover the keybaord area, it overlaps the front of the piano to the right of the keyboard? I have been through huge numbers of square pianos from the 1830s and 1840s to confirm what I felt instinctively: I have no record of anybody making one like that! The legs are also unlike any Broadwoods I know of in this style.

[Colin Nicholson]

Yes Bill I know (so please don't "NO COLIN" me) - if you care to see the way I worded it..... I did say that some numbers do not 'ALWAYS' help - I didn't say that they do not help (and rule it out completely), and I am aware that some numbers do help. On this occasion however, the numbers presented in the photo (which seem to be too close & unidentifyable to which part of the piano they were taken from) - do not help as you said, and no one is any more the wiser of the identity of this beautiful looking piano..

[Tomasz Zaleski]

Good Morning!,

Many Thanks before hand for all of the assistance and kind words...
I have taken many Pictures of the Piano, please, if You would like any specific pictures to be taken, I will be more then happy.
By Removing the Mechanism, do you mean the Harp? or parts that can be takin out to have a better look of the Harp and parts, etc?. if this is the case, I have performed the same and have come out empty handed. No Labels, nor Info.

I will continue to post "fresh" Photos and see if "we" observe details that have been ignored..(due to my poor picture taking skills).
Bill, That Observation of the front part of the Lid, (thats attention to detail)!

[Tomasz Zaleski]

I Also looked at Collard and Collard, but the few Square Pianos Made have a more "modern" leg style and The LIDs fold back (completely). I asked the Doyls (Family who owns the Piano) if any alterations or modifications or additions had been made, and Nothing has been replaced. I have also checked all the nails/screws and other hard ware, compared with those used in Antique Pianos, and they match.

[Tomasz Zaleski]

... here is another picture taken from an "aerial" angle.

[Bill Kibby]

Clear, neat, imprinted marks like these are much more likely to tell us something than handwritten ones. The piano has a mark C&C inside, which appears to have been imprinted before the piano was fully assembled, so it probably indicates the maker. If "&C" means "and Co." it could be any name beginning with C, and although the obvious C&C is Collard & Collard, this does not look like one of their pianos.

Cramer, Wood & Co. imprinted their stock C&Co, whereas Cramer, Beale & Co. used CB&C. These would be followed by their stock number.

C&C is sometimes seen inside later Hopkinson pianos.

It is also marked R&A, but I can't see any such names on our files so far. Perhaps another Scottish firm made it for Maver.

[Colin Nicholson]

This may be a "shot in the dark" - but are the stamped initials C&C on the right hand side of the lock (brass plate) for the fallboard? This may have been the locksmith or company who either made, or at some stage serviced the lock? There is a locksmiths called C&C in Kent - but again, a pure guess, don't know how far they go back, and sometimes a company like to etch their logo onto something - but you would usually find a phone number aswell.

[Tomasz Zaleski]

This may be a "shot in the dark" - but are the stamped initials C&C on the right hand side of the lock (brass plate) for the fallboard?

Good day,
Yes the C & C is Stamped on the right hand side of the lock, for the Fall-board.

[Tomasz Zaleski]

..found a hand written series of numbers "3/3/36" could that be a date? is it possible and safe to think that this piano was an early Broadwood, due to the Capital B hand written on the inside piano Board, 600(hand written/where serial numbers where written for that particular kind of piano), meaning early serial notification?..

I guess no one knows much about this piano,

love the mystery.


Respectfully
Tomasz Zaleski

[Bill Kibby]

That date is too close to my 1837 estimate to be ignored, but it's a big leap of faith to imagine that a capital B means Broadwood. If the number is 600, it would be much earlier - 1787. I have been desperately trying to see a way that "R&A" could mean Robert Allen & Son, Glasgow, who was trained at Broadwoods, and made similar pianos to theirs, but his numbers were around 5000 then. His son Alexander was in business on his own by 1844. Robert & Alexander - R&A?

Did you find some sort of reference to Maver operating in the 1830s?

[Bill Kibby]

...AND Robert Allen did use that distinctive flap that makes the front look symmetrical when closed. Is there a number in the 5000 range inside the top, near the back?

Heinrich Haegele, of Aalen, also used a similar idea, but the pianos looked quite different.

[Tomasz Zaleski]

dear Bill,
Forgive my late replie, I was out of the country...

Unfortunately there is no number inside the top, near the back. and thank You sincerely for the information you just gave me, I have been able to confirm each and every one of them... I got in touch with Michelle library in Glasgow, and they are assisting me as well in obtaining information on the late Mavers.. if something of highlight from the library arrises, I will post it here, in the mean while, I will use the information you kindly provided and see how far I can go.

Tomasz-

[Bill Kibby]

Before you get involved in long research about Maver, Allen, or any piano subject, it is always worth emailing me to get a quote for printing brief notes, or a full report.

[Bill Kibby]

I've been going through a great many images of square pianos and have come to the following conclusion:

Square pianos are not normally symmetrical, because the keyboard is set to the left, but around the 1830s and 1840s, some makers designed an inset area on the front, so that when closed, the pianos appeared to be symmetrical.