Ryalls & Jones Ltd., Birkenhead

[schoolof7]

We have acquired an old upright piano (it only has two pedals) and would like to know more about it. I have been unable to find any information. The piano has inlaid flower designs on the front and opens from the top for tuning, with a hidden music stand. The name on the piano is Ryalls & Jones Ltd, Birkenhead. I would appreciate any help and information available.

[Bill Kibby]

Unfortunately, the description - two pedals - inlaid flower designs - opens from the top - hidden music stand - applies to most antique British upright pianos you are likely to come across. All I can tell you at the moment is that an 1884 Hopkinson piano was supplied by Ryalls & Jones, so they may have been in business hat early. Ryalls & Jones became Ltd. in 1935, so they probably sold your piano secondhand after 1934, because inlaid work is unlikely to be 1930s.

[Paul F]

I seem to remember our old piano badged with the name of Rushworth and Dreaper, Liverpool, with a little transfer added at the treble end 'incorporating Ryalls and Jones, Birkenhead.' A takeover of a small retailer by a bigger one then. Sadly I believe R&D's music shop and organ building business in Liverpool both went into liquidation some years ago but there is probably and archive somewhere.

[klanga]

Hi I know it's been 3 yrs since you posted - but you may check in.
Ryalls and Jones were a dealership, and so the pianos were stamped with their name but not made by them. If the piano has a metal frame, the name of the manufacturer will be on that somewhere. Removing one or both front doors will reveal this. It will be possible to date your piano roughly...somewhere on it, probably beneath the lifting top door, there will be a number stamped into the wood, this will correspond with the date the piano was made. There is a book, which name I forget, which contains these numbers and the dates they represent. however there are now many websites with these numbers and dates. I say roughly, as occasionally there will be two numbers, I'm not sure why, but the dates will be close to each other.
Sorry, I didn't know of this site's existence back when you posted.

[Bill Kibby]

Thanks. Numbers do not normally represent dates, and no dates of Ryalls & Jones numbers are available. Frames are not usually marked with the piano maker's name either.

[Johnkie]

Thanks. Numbers do not normally represent dates, and no dates of Ryall numbers are available. Frames are not usually marked with the piano maker's name either. You may find it interesting to read my Numbers page at http://www.pianogen.org

Bill .... you keep plugging "www.pianogen.org" but it appears to be fruitless .... none of your links work !!

[Bill Kibby]

I'm "plugging" it because it contains useful information that is not available anywhere else. However, I am sorry the links are not working today, I used them yesterday. Try this...

http://www.piano-tuners.org/piano-gen/p ... mbers.html

[Johnkie]

I'm "pluuging" it because it contains useful information that is not available anywhere else. However, I am sorry the links are not working today, I used them yesterday. Try this...

http://www.piano-tuners.org/piano-gen/p ... mbers.html

Thanks Bill - Please don't think that I was being impolite .... merely pointing out that your links weren't working. The link you sent, however does work fine. Perhaps I should have said "referrence to" rather than plugging .....

[klanga]

Hi again

Ryalls numbers do not exist because they were a dealership not a maker, which is why it would be necessary to get the name of the maker from the frame. This together with the serial number on the cabinet WILL make it possible to begin your research into the history of your piano.

I'm sorry, I mistook this forum for a place to share knowledge and experience, when it turns out it is a place for dogma and misinformation, here purely for the purpose of plugging your own website Mr Kibby I do not claim to know all there is to know about piano history, and neither should you

I fully expect to have this post removed and be banned from your site for disagreeing with a moderator in this way, and as I do not wish to become a forum troll I will not be posting here again.

Once again, I am sorry I took up your forum space with my musings

[MarkGoodwinPianos]

Calm down calm down.
The iron frame very often does not have any reference to a manufacturer. Also, numbers etched into soundboards or stamped onto the very top of one of the sides just under where the top lid rests when in a closed position are not serial numbers either.

It's clear that Bill's site probably does contain some very useful info and that should be respected BUT the info is often buried or lost due to the rather higgly piggledy design of the site.

Therefore when Bill says "look at at pianogen.com" I've got a feeling that people go there and get confused. Bill why not link people directly to your date marks page instead of just linking people to your homepage. Either that or make your homepage clearer and your page navigation more traditional with a long list of links to your most useful pages down one side of the website template.

None of my business really but with pianogen being plugged so often it's a shame the design and navigation isn't clearer.

[Bill Kibby]

Thanks for your support Mark, I am sorry I am not a website designer, so I am in the hands of other people for that, and often held to ransom. Not only is everyone entitled to post an opinion, I am too. My main aim, and that of this forum, is to help people to find information, so when somebody posts information that is incorrect or misleading, it is my function as moderator of this forum to add corrections (rather than delete everybody's mistakes) so that future readers will not be misled.

On the rare occasions when Ryalls & Jones pianos have made it as far as East Anglia, I have found no clues inside to indicate the true makers, on the frame or anywhere else. Since "klanga"'s approach starts with identifying the maker, I would be grateful if he would share his knowledge with us, and explain how this is to be done?

[MarkGoodwinPianos]

Just spotted this reply.
Thanks Bill. Keep doing what you're doing

[Colin Nicholson]

Hi I know it's been 3 yrs since you posted - but you may check in.
Ryalls and Jones were a dealership, and so the pianos were stamped with their name but not made by them. If the piano has a metal frame, the name of the manufacturer will be on that somewhere. Removing one or both front doors will reveal this. It will be possible to date your piano roughly...somewhere on it, probably beneath the lifting top door, there will be a number stamped into the wood, this will correspond with the date the piano was made. There is a book, which name I forget, which contains these numbers and the dates they represent. however there are now many websites with these numbers and dates. I say roughly, as occasionally there will be two numbers, I'm not sure why, but the dates will be close to each other.
Sorry, I didn't know of this site's existence back when you posted.

to Klanga.... if you are still around? In my eyes, Bill is extremely experienced in the history of pianos, and by far surpasses anyone's knowledge of pianos on this, or probably other websites. Much of the information received is regrettably done "blindfolded" - so neither Bill or anyone else gets to actually see a picture of the piano in questions - and nor the all-important serial number. Cast iron frames sometimes do not show the makers's name inside, and this piano is no exception - in fact this piano doesn't even get a 'mention' in the Pierce Piano Atlas - perhaps the book you were referring to?
Pianos that are barely heard of and that carry no history attached are seldom mentioned, unless someone wants to inform Bill about it, or Kim Pierce - all the way to New Mexico, USA.
Numbers stamped into the wood (facing upwards) are not a serial number, and never will be - and references like "stamped on the wood somewhere" ???? eh? is both fruitless and meaningless since around most of the components to build a piano are made of...... WOOD!
This information is also FREE - gratis, and even if Bill cannot date a piano, or find exactly the right information, nothing is lost. However, if you decide to contact Pierce Piano Atlas and ask them to date your piano, you would have to pay for the privilege first - that's just the research bit, then you don't get your money back if they have unsuccessful in their search.
Finally, if an old tea cabinet, Japanese plate or a piece of delightful silver jewellery is examined on Antiques Road Show by an expert - yes, it has to be visually inspected very closely (and sometimes with a magnifying glass) to determine hall marks, date stamps, signatures etc etc.... but much of the examination reveals numbers, names, stamp markings that are a copy, or are not relevant in the dating & pricing of a valuable collector's piece - and the expert will rightly point this out, and show you. On pianos, there are allsorts of different kinds of numbers - stock numbers, model letters, and (if it CAN be researched) - the good ol' serial number!!
So much of the above is valuable for the general hobby pianist, but to the enthusiast, surely some photos of this piano would then be able to help you further.

Anyway, that's my view.... hope that solidifies Bill's status on this very well organised web site.... and ALL FREE!!