Sames Upright - looking for information.

[lewismug]

I recently purchased an old Sames upright piano from a thrift shop. My wife fell in love with it immediately and we only paid $90.00 US for it. We brought it home and it is currently in the garage. I plan to tear it down, fix what I can, refinish the wood and then maybe bring it inside. I've already found one brown recluse inside! Anyway, it says Sames right below the music holder in gold lettering. It's in pretty rough shape and wasn't properly cared for at all. The soundboard seems to be in good condition (but what do I know! ), although a lot of the hammers will need reconditioning along with many of the other interior parts that wear out over time. I have uploaded several pictures of the piano to my website and was wondering if anyone would mind looking them over and letting me know what I have gotten myself into. This is my first piano and would love to do all of the work on it myself. Well, all that I am capable of doing that is. I was able to find two other markings besides the name. In the top left corner "1705" (yes, I know it's not the date it was manufactured) is stamped into the wood and on the cast iron piece that all of the strings are attached to it has "EBF". I know very little about pianos at all, much less Sames. It seems as if there is very little information on them online. Any information any of you could give me as to what things to do or not do when working on this or any kind of a educated guess on the date it was made would be much appreciated. I am very new to this site but plan on making some friends while I'm here. I've already learned quite a bit from you guys and gals and hope to learn much more!

Thanks,

William

[Colin Nicholson]

Firstly, I would seriously think about getting a piano tuner out to try and tune it first.
Depending on what you do to it, I will warn you...... if you start to dismantle hammers, those small red-tipped tapes (that are hidden behind the fallboard) will just crumble to pieces in your fingers. If the piano is just for 'tinkering' - go ahead, but many problems will lie ahead, and piano tuners generally avoid these types of piano now.

So, we have whats known in the trade as THE THREE DEADLY SINS.... your piano has all 3 of them.
1. Over-damped (dampers over the top with lift rods)
2. Straight-strung (as opposed to overstrung)
3. Three-quarter sized iron frame (as opposed to full iron frame)

If you want any hope of saving this piano, (if you know how to do it), remove the mechanism and store it indoors - but not just yet. Having said that, damp conditions may have already 'kicked in' However, if you send a photo of the bridle tapes - remove the fallboard first, I may be able to advise you whether to lift the mech. out or not. If any of those tapes are broken (attached to a curled wire/ straddle) - then you may damage the mechanism when you eventually put it back in.

I need to see the bridle tapes first - all 85 of them, fairly close-up.

If they are broken, you'll need to replace them before you 'do the hammers' ?

Sorry to say, I think the piano is well past its sell by date, and throwing good money after bad - well, its up to you. Personally, I would 'get rid' - although the removal may have cost more than the value of the piano!!!!

Anyway, if you need some help - give me a shout!!!!

[Bill Kibby]

Although interior shots like these are very informative, it would be nice to see what the whole piano originally looked like on the outside, but it has been modernised. This being a history forum, I have to say once again that there are still a great many seven-octave straight-strung overdampers with underneath pedals and three-quarter frames giving a great deal of pleasure to many people, and if we throw away everything in the world that doesn't conform to modern specs, we will have no history left. The reactions of people who look at my collection of antique pianos range from those who are astounded by the history in the room to those who say it is a pile of junk. Old pianos are difficult, and often not worth the cost of full restoration, so as Colin quite rightly says, the very first thing you need to do is check that it is capable of being tuned, before expending any further cash or effort. Unfortunately, many American tuners will reject an overdamper piano.

[lewismug]

I do know that one of the tapes is broken completely and there are several that look as if they may be getting ready to break. I'm not really that worried if I make a huge mistake and kill the entire piano to be honest with you. It may take me three or four years of slow progress on this thing, but I will get it done eventually. I'm not really so much worried about the value of it compared to what it will cost to fix it. I'm just looking for an interesting long-term project to tackle and this looks like it's about as good as things will get as far as that goes. We're not looking for a piano that we will play for family get-togethers. Just something that the kids can peck around on and my wife can play every now and then when she gets in the mood. I'm also just getting into woodworking and I think this would be great first project from that perspective. I love a challenge and think this could at least be a beautiful piece of furniture someday if not also maybe a decent sounding piano. Maybe my dreams are getting away from me on this....but it's worth a shot to me simply for the personal satisfaction of knowing that I was able to put my best effort into bringing it back from the brink of death! The worst that could happen is that it dies a terrible death at the hand of an idiot that thought he could save it. The best that could happen is that I could end up with one of the most beautiful Sames pianos in my town! and I live in a town of about 1,000. It will be an interesting journey to say the least!

[Colin Nicholson]

I wish you luck with your restoration!

If its going to take several years to complete, I would try and lift the mechanism out & all the keys (number each key 1-85 from left to right), and store them in a dry place. Otherwise, your family get together & singing around the piano may never happened! If left in a damp garage, the mechanism will seize up.

The tapes will definitely need to be replaced before you put the action back - a piano tuner should be able to get you a set (they come oversized, and in packs of 90).

Best wishes

Colin

[Gill the Piano]

If you're in america you need to tell the tuner it's a 'birdcage' action; some american tuners won't touch them for some strange reason.

[Feg]

American tuners won't touch them because they can't tune them with Electronic Tuning Devices which are far more common there than they are here. They use felt strip mutes for the whole instrument, tune using the ETD then put in the unisons at the end. Rather difficult with an overdamper

[Johnkie]

Have just looked at the photos, and it looks like something that I as a professional would advise a client not to spend money on ... other than perhaps, giving the tuning a once (or twice!) over. It's never going to be a decent instrument - it's much older than it may look, having been modernised at some point in its life. The action looks very tired, the strings have seen better days etc etc etc ...

However if it would give you pleasure by trying to do something with it, I suggest you get a tuner to do the best (s)he can first - If all goes well i.e. no loose wrestpins and all the notes playing - then concentrate on the case work. It's simply not worth the time and effort to do anything other than what may be required to make it playable .... you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear !! But if it can be tuned ( and perhaps even go as far as having the tapes replaced) ..... go ahead with doing the case work up so that it will grace your home and be something that looks good and is able to be played.

If you decide to go ahead with re-building then I'm sure we would be more than happy to give you all the help and advice we could - just make sure you ask BEFORE doing anything, and be prepared for a lot of hard work, and the expense of parts and specialist tools needed.

[lewismug]

Thanks for all of the replies! Yes, I'm sure I will spend way more time and energy working on this thing than it'll ever be worth! It will be a journey to say the least. I plan to purchase one of the toolkits offered here and put it to use. I have done a search for tuners in my area and will begin calling around tomorrow to see if anyone will be able to give it a try. I will also let them know that it is a birdcage action and see what kind of response I get. Thanks guys!

Johnkie, how old would you guess it is just by looking at it?

[Bill Kibby]

Ignoring the fifties-style modernisation of some parts of the outer casework, the interior is probably just over a hundred years old. There may be clues inside, so have a look at my Datemarks page at pianogen.org

Having said that, the modernisation process often aimed to remove any clue to its real age, and pass it off as something it was not!

[Colin Nicholson]

That's not a bad age for the garage Bill!!

Seriously though - all this hoo haah about a piano. I would just book a piano tuner to come out - simple, spend a little on it, and you may get some free advice. When people ring me to book a tuning, they just say "can you tune my piano" ...... or in Yorkshire its.... "how much is a piano tuning?" - if I am pre-warned there is a torture cabinet with a bird cage inside, then YES, I will be wary - but I would just let the tuner come out to do his/her job. (Yes, there are some good lady tuners aswell - I trained with Alastiar Lawrence, and his sister Helen was on the course with me).

The least they may say, is it cant be tuned - give him 20 quid for call-out.

[Gill the Piano]

Yes, there are some good lady tuners aswell .

REALLY???

[Colin Nicholson]

Including you Gill !! lol

[vernon]

With all her postings I feel I know Gill the Piano now. I only know of one other lady tuner tho'
We seem to be quite a conservative lot. Are there any tuners of an "ethnic minority "around,bearing in mind the huge talents of our customers who fall into that category?
Leaving out the Scotch of course,who are many!

[Feg]

With all her postings I feel I know Gill the Piano now. I only know of one other lady tuner tho'

Would that be me perchance?

Perhaps being a Scottish Lady Tuner makes me even more of a 'minority

Fiona

[Bill Kibby]

When it comes to combining art with science, logical, and creativity, I know a lot more women than men who are up to the job Fiona! That's not a sexist generalisation, it is based on experience. For many years, I attended a large weekly jam session, where there was a deep gender divide - most men plodded through three-chord songs on guitars, while the women poured their souls into more subtle, interesting, expressive songs... with me on keyboards! Are you the Essex Fiona, or another Fiona tuner?

[NewAge]

Yes, there are some good lady tuners aswell .

REALLY???

Whilst on the subject, it was a lady tuner who attempted to cure a squeaking sustain pedal on my new piano with........WD40 ! The second I saw her posed with the spray can in her hand I screamed loudly, "NO!" which made her jump. I paid her for the tuning, showed her the door, and she's not been back since.
However I'm sure Gill the Piano or Fiona would never pull a dirty trick like that, and there's no doubt male tuners out there with tool bags of dirty-deeds.
Fortunately my new tuner is brilliant, but alas - not one to ask out on a dinner date.........

[Feg]

I'm a Fiona from Edinburgh!

I wouldn't dream of using WD40 on a customers piano. Apart from anything else, it is an easing oil NOT a lubricant! Oh, and it is brilliant for removing the residue from sticky labels

[Bill Kibby]

It is also the most amazing product ever made for lubricatring metal-to-metal such as old pedal hinges or rusty strings on iron bridges. Not to mention the only way of lubricating underdamper spring squeaks without major cost... Etc. Just because "oiling a piano" has such worrying connotations, like the infamous "piano doctor", it does not alter the fact that mechanical devices often need lubrication.

[Colin Nicholson]

Oooh, OW! WD 40 on pedal hinges! that's a good one.... however, I must admit, I once used it sparingly in a couple of places when I restrung a Schiedmayer upright. The bass string eyes & treble loops had seriously 'welded' themselves to the hitch pins & frame, and the rust that came off was worse than my 1975 MK II Ford Escort! Even after a light dosing of WD, I still had to prize them off with a blunt screwdriver & T-hammer. Job was a good 'n - but rightly so, never should be used on pedal hinges