New Kawai vs 2nd Hand Chappell

[Outofpractice]

Finally making some progress in my search for a piano, I played three upright pianos today which I really liked. I know it's horses for courses but would be interested to hear the experts' opinions on the choice.

First piano was a Chappell, about 30 years old. Quite tall (so plenty of volume and depth of sound) with a lovely mellow English tone. I would have been happy to buy this straight off, it was lovely to play and comes with a warranty in case it were to develop any problems. The only problem I had was a slight stiffness in the touch, was told this was because it hadn't been played much recently and that it should ease up with regular use (which I intend to give it ).

I heard the shop owner play the Kawais and wasn't too keen on the bright sound. However, I found them really lovely to play when I tried myself, very responsive. The K15 falls near-ish the budget for the Chappell (it's a bit more expensive), but we could probably stretch to a K2 if there's room for negotiation on price.

So.......... Would you go for the second hand piano (love its tone, love its looks, love the extra money that I could spend on sheet music if I buy this one), or is it worth paying the extra for the new piano? I know Kawais are well thought of on here.

I'm a decent amateur BTW, will be playing grade 8-ish standard, and also hopefully teaching my kids to play.

[Colin Nicholson]

Choosing the 'tone' of a piano is very personal, and no one - not even the shop keeper can tell you - yes, if you know nothing - they will advise you.
A 30 year old Chappell? I'd leave it alone if you can choose - in 10 - 15 years time, its an old piano, and will develop various action & tuning issues. I would estimate these to retail about £1.2 - £1.5K? top end, if the action has been restored (but not worth restringing).

Yes, the K15 is a good "budget" (ish) Kawai upright - might topple over with having no legs, but very nice to play & tune. I spent 2 days at Kawai earlier this year, and was greatly involved in hammer toning - the Japanese way! I have also completely re-toned my own English upright, and its like drinking a cup of Horlicks set in a sepia background - lovely. The hammers will re-tone beautifully. Sometimes the edges of the hammer felt need lightly refacing with very thin strips of garnet paper, but you need a technician you knows what he is doing. I was even shown how to re-tone the bass end, without even touching the hammers - trade secret.

K15's retail just under £2K I think.

If you can stretch it, go for the K2. Might not seem important now, but if fitted with the carbon fibre action - new strings, new everything,. solid soundboard, get the hammers toned properly (they are sometimes just lightly gone over in the workshop) - and a great piano to own.

Also remember that even if you see two identical looking K15's and K2's - they often never sound the same.

Happy piano hunting.....

[Kemble King]

street selling price is around £2700 for the K15.

Ask the dealer to voice the Kawai for you and Im sure you will prefer the Kawai. It will last you much longer than the Chappel.

Regards

KK

[NewAge]

In a heart-beat I'd say go for either of the Kawai's over the 30year old Chappell.
If you can find the extra funds for the K2, do so. You won't regret it!

[Outofpractice]

Thanks all, sounds like the K2 is the one then.

A couple of questions - do you think it's worth getting the piano and playing it for a while, getting to know it, before thinking about voicing it? And are there any technicians who could tell me roughly how much voicing might cost on a K2?

Also, the piano shop I went to only had the one K2 in stock - it's a gloss mahogany case, and I would really like the walnut case. The dealer said he thought that build quality was pretty consistent and that playing the model in the shop would give a good idea of what playing any K2 would be like. But Colin, you seem to disagree. Is it worth trying to find a walnut K2 on display somewhere (we live in the sticks, so might mean a journey of 50 miles or so) and play it before buying, or is ordering one direct from the factory an OK thing to do?

Thanks again for all your help, it is so useful.

[Colin Nicholson]

I would be careful 'jumping' into re-voicing a piano, just for the sake of it. In most cases, the characteristic sound of any piano is down to its natural ability to sound and play well. A K2 piano in black/mahogany/ walnut or even snow white polyester finish has the same mechanism & same hammers & strings. You may pay more for the walnut finish, but again the tone depends on your personal taste. Each piano may be slightly different in tone, but this is nothing to do with the wood finish, but the condition of the hammer felt/ humidity etc.

Kawai will only deal with the trade, but if you need any further advice, let me know. I work p/t in a reputable piano shop in West Yorkshire, and get first hand on most of the K and RX series pianos. We have a walnut K3 in stock, but the price may be a bit high. The K6 is also very good, but for my liking, the hammers are too toned on this particular piano.

Re- toning is quite a lengthy job - about 2 hours, and involves needling the hammer felt in a sequence - the action also needs to be removed. When we get them in, they have been toned, but sometimes need further toning. Generally we leave them alone & let the customer decide....

[vernon]

I wouldn't give a 30 yr old Chappell a chance against a new Kawai. It's a non starter- certainly at the price you mentioned.
When you say you are in the sticks,what approximate part of the country?
If you ring Kawais they'll tell you your nearest dealer with a walnut Kawai in stock.
We always keep one but they don't sell as well as black for some reason.

[Peter Smith@PSPianos]

Hi Outofpractice ,
I read your question and thought I should offer my take on it.
From the replies it obvious that the others on the forum favour the Kawai.
I suggest that the Chappell is the better choice.
Reasons
The Chappell is only 30yrs old. In piano terms thats 'no time at all'.
The Chappell was built in the early 1980's. A great time for British piano manufacters. This was a period when British makers had to fight against imported rivals and they done this by ensuring that 'The British' piano was superior. And the Chappell was one of the best ! As a retailer we had the option of having the 'Kemble' or paying extra and stocking the Chappell. Why would we do that ? Simply because it had the better action and keyboard than the Kemble. Both came from the same place ( Yamaha-Kemble) The Chappell had the better cabinet, touch and tone.

Your debate is which is the better choice ?

My opinion is play both pianos and choose. Don't listen to anyone. Decide for yourself. Play them and have an immediate reaction. Don't get all technical or otherwise. The one that gives you the ' feel good factor' is correct.

The argument that the Chappell might develop problems.....any piano might develop problems. I would be more concerned about the dealer that I was buying from...and will he do the preparation before delivery.

Ask the dealer if you purchase the Chappell and are not content with it...would he change it for the Kawai ? ( Within a short period a month )

This should be an exciting and an enjoyable experince.

Regards

[Colin Nicholson]

I think that not all of the above advice is concrete - yes, 'outof practise' (can we call you OOP for clarity?) and as I said, its a personal taste. However...... if you read OOP's initial post, it says "about 30 years" hence not "only 30 years". My initial reaction was to think that OOP has thoroughly checked the Chappell out, and if this piano is so young (which it is if only 30 years old), then has the serial number been checked over?

These are terms & phrases that I hear too often.... "about XX years" , but the alleged year has turned out to be when some restoration was done on the piano, and not the year of manufacture - hence the true age of the piano (this was proved in another post). So if the piano is genuinely "about 30 years old" - the serial number should start in the region of c.#88200 (for year c.1969) to around #91800 (year 1977) - just for now, assuming the piano is a 'little' over 30 years, if younger, the serial number would be after #91XXX.

I agree, Chappell are a cracking good piano, but there is less likely to go wrong with a new Kawai (of which Kawai have never had any complaints when the sales exec told me) - so I would reach for the piano atlas and just verify the actual year.

Would everyone agree with this?.... then decide

[Colin Nicholson]

Mr Outofpractise

Just been informed that we have a K2 in stock - and in walnut, if you are interested.
we can do you a really good deal & deliver for you.

Please send me an email if you are interested:

aatuners@hotmail.com

[joseph]

Reading the posts without playing the pianos, I'd go for a new Kawai over an older Chappell. Playing the pianos, I might fall in love with the Chappell. They are pretty good pianos and if the price is competitive, then why not go for it? Reading between the lines it sounds like you've set your heart on the Chappell.

Most techs including mine will go for a new piano over an old one, but I suppose it really depends on how a particular piano sounds. If the old piano has been looked after then the chances are that it will be absolutely sound structurally. It's perfectly possible for new pianos to develop cracked soundboards and bridges etc, although with a factory like Kawai this would be exceptionally rare. If a new piano does develop a major problem then the manufacturer just replaces the piano for you, which is an advantage over a 2nd hand instrument.

You decide. Get an independent tech to inspect. A chappell upright of this age and size should be good enough to take you through grade 8. I went up to grade 6 on a straight strung overdamper no name piece of rubbish that was always a semitone flat and had a crack in the board (obviously). I did my grade 8 practising on a 1950 Challen and 1980 Knight, neither of which were particularly great pianos but I got a distinction. To be honest you can get very far on a terrible piano. It's just a bit easier on a nice one. I'm hoping my next piano will be a Steinway (at this point someone tries to sell me the boston.... I have no money!).

[Outofpractice]

Thank you all so much for your opinions

My husband (yes, I am Mrs OOP rather than Mr!) is keen on getting the walnut Kawai if we can get a deal that's within our budget, so am going to speak to some local dealers. Colin, thanks for your offer but we're probably 300 miles from you - which is a shame

Can I ask what is a realistic price to pay for a new K2? The dealer is advertising the one he has in the shop for £3500. I'm hoping to get it for maybe £3100-£3200 (including tuning but excluding any extra work, such as voicing, if we did decide to go down that route). Would that be reasonable? Might I be able to get one for less than that if I look around?

Thanks.

[vernon]

The Kawai you buy will last your lifetime therefore look at the deal you are offered before the price.
There is always someone who will go the £50 cheaper than a rival.It's not a car or a TV or fridge
Therefore,I recommend the following;
confirm that the piano has been prepared and tuned by the dealer before delivery;whether delivery is included;is a stool included; will there be a free or chargeable tuning after a settling down period;
has the dealer a proper technician available and,most important,is the dealer of substance and will he still be around to honour the warranty?
To offer some or all ofthe above the dealer needs his mark up so view a cut -price deal with caution.

[Outofpractice]

Thanks Vernon, and I totally agree with your comments. I don't want to insult anyone and would certainly rather pay a few hundred pounds more to a good established dealer, especially as I am hoping that once I've bought the piano, I'll be back regularly for music, tuning, and all the other good stuff.

Having said that, I'd like to know if I'm about to pay way over the odds. Just interested in hearing opinions really - certainly, if the advice is not to bargain hard but to form a good relationship with the dealer (even if it means paying more) then I'm happy to listen to that. I've never bought a piano before!

[bartgovaert]

I bought a K2 2 years ago, and it is a beautiful piano. K3 is quite a step up though.

[joseph]

Agree - always go for an established dealer who can back up the purchase with prep, new or second hand.

[Outofpractice]

Update: firstly thank you all SOOOO much for your help, it was invaluable.

I have ordered the Kawai K2, it's coming into the shop first for preparation, and I can see it there, then hopefully will be at home with us in a couple of weeks I paid a price I was very happy with, and have a new and promising relationship with our local music shop/piano technician. My husband has asked for piano music for christmas and my older son has asked me for piano lessons.

All in all, very happy, with a smile on my face every time I think about the piano arriving

[Colin Nicholson]

Super duper, thats good news.
Hope you are happy with your new piano.... and does your husband know about this new relationship you are having|!!!!

If you are ordering Xmas music, and if you are around grade 4 - 6 standard, try the book "With Christmas in Mind" (green front with snow flakes).

Hope you have many years of enjoyment.

Colin