Mangeot - Steinway Piano
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Mangeot - Steinway Piano
Post by drplockmeyer »
Steinway's response was as follows: The numerals 1864 are not a date in my opinion. They are possibly the serial number. The fact of a flat plate in combination with 20 bass notes tells us that it is not a Steinway piano. If it were a post-1872 Steinway, it would have a cupola plate. Also, the long bridge is not centrally located as it should be, and the compression bar in the bass corner does not have the proper configuration to be a Steinway piano. It appears to be a circa 1872 to 1875 counterfeit Steinway, possibly of French origin. If it were a Steinway piano, it would have a 5-digit serial number.
Subsequently I had a piano tuner come and work on the piano. He was quite certain that the harp is an authentic Steinway component. However, he noted that the piano has been restored and 'modernized' with newly legs, etc.
I posted what I knew on Piano World forum and Mangeot-Steinway was one of the possibilities. I was referred to a U-Tube video of a Mangeot grand for sale and in my humble opinion, the harp in that piano and the harp in my piano are a match. I was hoping that someone on your side of the ocean might be of some assistance.
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Re: Mangeot - Steinway Piano
Post by Bill Kibby »
http://www.uk-piano.org/piano-forums/vi ... 58&start=0
and others you can find simply by googling "mangeot steinway"
Please give us the complete, exact wording that is shown on the piano.
In 1876, Mangeot made a grand with two keyboards, "Piano A Claviers Renverses" - one reversed - the notes in the opposite order! Six were built, plus a few uprights. Mangeot also made some grands marked "System Steinway".
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Re: Mangeot - Steinway Piano
Post by drplockmeyer »
Line 1: STEINWAY & SONS (9/16" lettering)
..
Line 2: PAT ' NOV. 29, DEC 20 1959. (PAT is 9/16" lettering, dates are 3/8" lettering)
..
Line 3: JUNE 5 1866. (dates are 3/8" lettering)
...
Line 4: NEW - YORK (9/16" Lettering)
STEINWAY & SONS is printed on the keyboard cover but obviously added after the piano was restored and painted/stained black.
Thanks in advance for the assist. If this does prove to be Mangeot-Steinway, do you know of someone there who can reproduce the music desk, legs, and lyre?
Denny
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Re: Mangeot - Steinway Piano
Post by drplockmeyer »
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Re: Mangeot - Steinway Piano
Post by Colin Nicholson »
In 2004, I visited Steinway in London, and found their convention worth while. At the end of the day, they presented me with the Steinway volume - over 200 pages, containing every invention they made, including all their patents and numbers, and dates.
Steinway seem to enjoy 'advertising' their realms of glory and inventions on another piano, and yours is no exception. In the "Steinway Patents" catalogue, they have clearly listed the inventions done to previous instruments.
I think line 2 should be 1859? and on the date mentioned - 29th November they had improved the Plate flange with agraffes (patent number 26300) and also various modifications to the grand action itself. Although the writing "June 5 1866" will not mean anything on your piano, on this date, they had invented the Double Iron Frame Upright Piano, invented by W. Steinway. This may seem irrelevant, but clearly marks their landmarks in the innovations of Steinway - so I find it difficult to understand why Steinway have sneered this - unless another company has copied their patents.
It would also be interesting to see a photo of the mechanism (removed from the piano), to see if the tubular action frame had been employed on these pianos. For example, the hammer rail on a modern Steinway is a tubular section of wood, encased in brass tubing - with holes drilled out for the hammer flanges - this keeps out damp and unwanted environmental changes in the atmosphere to try and preserve a rail that will not warp or bend, thus changing the hammer distance to the strings & maintaning goo regulation. The rail is also sometimes lined with a strip of cloth to even keep out damp where the screws enter the rail - thats the lengths that Steinway go to!
Colin Nicholson Dip. Mus. CMIT CLCM PTLLS
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Re: Mangeot - Steinway Piano
Post by drplockmeyer »
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Re: Mangeot - Steinway Piano
Post by drplockmeyer »
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Re: Mangeot - Steinway Piano
Post by drplockmeyer »
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Re: Mangeot - Steinway Piano
Post by Bill Kibby »
http://pianohistory.info
Email via my website.
If you find old references or links on this site to pianogen.org, they should refer to pianohistory.info
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Re: Mangeot - Steinway Piano
Post by Colin Nicholson »
Regarding the decal for the 'key cover' (correct term is 'fallboard' ) - I would highly recommend you contact Kim Pierce (from Pierce Piano Atlas) - this is in Albuquerque, New Mexico. They also do the decals for the soundboard, but if its missing, the strings would need to be de-tensioned in that area, but not recommended if strings are old. Their website is http://www.piercepianoatlas.com
The name on the fallboard would have originally been brass inlaid, which is possible stained & polished over? They may also do the "pedal lyre" motif which is the emblem for Steinway. Most decal kits need to be applied with varnish, and they also do serial numbers & string gauge numbers.
Hope that helps.....
Colin Nicholson Dip. Mus. CMIT CLCM PTLLS
Piano tuning & repairs. Full UK restoration service
http://www.aatuners.com
Tuition ~ Accompaniment ~ Weddings
http://www.pianotime1964.com
Member of The Guild of Master Craftsmen
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Re: Mangeot - Steinway Piano
Post by Bill Kibby »
http://pianohistory.info
Email via my website.
If you find old references or links on this site to pianogen.org, they should refer to pianohistory.info
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Re: Mangeot - Steinway Piano
Post by drplockmeyer »
There is nothing in our archives to support Mr. Plockmeyer’s claims that Steinway & Sons had an agreement with Freres Mangeot, nor provided any parts. Freres Mangeot in Nancy, France had their own plate-casting foundry.
The saga continues:
Re: Mangeot - Steinway Piano
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Re: Mangeot - Steinway Piano
Post by drplockmeyer »
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Re: Mangeot - Steinway Piano
Post by Colin Nicholson »
Colin Nicholson Dip. Mus. CMIT CLCM PTLLS
Piano tuning & repairs. Full UK restoration service
http://www.aatuners.com
Tuition ~ Accompaniment ~ Weddings
http://www.pianotime1964.com
Member of The Guild of Master Craftsmen
Re: Mangeot - Steinway Piano
Re: Mangeot - Steinway Piano
It's serial umber was either 611 or 911 and Steinways didn't want to know.
as they said they had an example of an even older model!!
We sold it to a lady who lived in Doddington Kent living next door to Virginia Wade the tennis player I seem to remember whose dad was the local vicar I think.
How about that?
Any fool can make a piano-- it needs a tuner to put the music in it
www.lochnesspianos.co.uk
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Re: Mangeot - Steinway Piano
Post by drplockmeyer »
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Re: Mangeot - Steinway Piano
Post by Colin Nicholson »
Henry Jr was awarded the patent in 1859 for moving the bridge on the grand piano to the middle of the soundboard, which achieved more resonance.
The photography throughout the book is mostly carried out by Margaret Bourke - White (around 1934), and also photographing various components of the pianos such as legs, lyres, music rests and the factories. Also alot of this information was revealed in the "Fortune" magazine - alot of the photos are stunning.
This may help your lead in the photos you need of your piano, but again, a shot in the dark!
Colin Nicholson Dip. Mus. CMIT CLCM PTLLS
Piano tuning & repairs. Full UK restoration service
http://www.aatuners.com
Tuition ~ Accompaniment ~ Weddings
http://www.pianotime1964.com
Member of The Guild of Master Craftsmen
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