just bought my first piano, and now have a question

[Wurzil]

Hi all,
This is my first post on here, so hello to everybody, and thanks in advance for any replies

Ive just taken the plunge and bought my first piano. It is a (1980s?) Alisson overstrung upright. I cant find a serial number on it - all i can find is, when i take the kickboard off, i see the number 58688 stencilled on the wood. Its under four foot tall and is not very ornate (i dont have a digital camera on me, otherwise i would post a pic). Oh - the metal frame inside has a sticker with a red wax seal on it, dont know if that helps identify??

I was very happy with my new piano, for which i paid £980 (delivered to a 1st floor flat) from a tradesman, until today when i walked into a music store and saw one nearly identical (same cabinetry and insides, different name and colour) for £200 less than i paid for mine, plus the action was a lot nicer to play (not so hard on my fingers and easier to play). The action on my piano is very hard in comparison - plus the soft pedal has less effect than the one in the shop.

My new piano looks in very good condition inside, the keys dont move about, there is no free play in the keys (hammers move straight away when key is pressed), nothing sticks inside or anything and it sounds nice and is in tune. I just wish it would be as easy to play as the one in the shop.

So my question is: is it possible to make the finger touch lighter on my piano, and if so how much would this cost me.

should i get a tuner type person to come a give it a once over??

thanks very much in advance

warren

[Wurzil]

ok ive done some reading and my guess is it needs regulation, as the heavy action on the piano makes it very difficult to play softly/quietly. Is this something the tradesmam/technician should have done before the sale (hes given me 6 months warranty) or is this something im gonna have to pay lots for??

I understand that i should have noticed this before buying, but, as i say its my first piano and i tried a few and liked this one. It was only after playing it for hours and then playing the pianos in another shop that i noticed the difference.

any help on this greatly appreciated

warren

[Barrie Heaton]

The pianos action can be made lighter your first port of call is the place you got it - did they give you a free tuning if so point out to the tuning that the action seems unresponsive give the tuning this info before they come so they can allocate some time for you

Barrie

[Wurzil]

I spoke to the tradesman today and he said that there isnt a lot on the piano that could be causing the heavy unreponsive action (he said possibly the dampers moving too soon??), and that some pianos have heavier actions than others - he also said that you dont want it too light anyway. It doesnt help that my worries hold little weight, as i am a (extreme) beginner.

Ive kind of agreed to stick with it for a little while to see how i go, but i did say that if im still not happy in a month or so, i may want to return the piano (and pay for the removal).

maybe i should pay for a tuner to come and give me his opinion?

W

[Colin Nicholson]

If your "tradesman" suspects the dampers are lifting off too early, then he/she ought to come out to you asap to sort it out. A fiddly job - takes less than an hour, but the dampers should start to lift away from the strings after the hammer has travelled about half its journey. If the dampers lift off at the same time as the hammer moving forward - then your action needs regulating, and this will make the action feel heavy to the touch. There is also the possibility that the keys need easing, around the bottom of the centre rail pins - so there are a few areas to be looked at.

Keep on at them, and they should sort it out. Dampers should always move after the hammer, not at the same time. As a test, why not press each key very slowly, and watch the hammer moving forward. The distance is about 47mm for hammer travel. The damper should start to lift away after the hammer has moved about 23mm.

You shouldn't have to pay anyone to come out to your piano - get your tradesman out to regulate it properly - but some are not experienced and don't know how to regulate a piano mechanism. Le us know how you get on. It is very easy for a tradesman to "pass the buck" and tell you what may be wrong!! EH? they already know what should have been done - and (pardon my French), they seem they can't be arsed!!! If the dampers lift off too early, tell them you have spoken to a tech guy, and the damper spoons need adjusting...... sorted. Yes, this should have been sorted before it left the shop, and if regulated properly, it should feel just like the other piano.

[Gill the Piano]

Another point is that your piano may have had the action reconditioned, and the other one was in its original state.This being the case, your piano will have new springs and centrepins which will have greater resistance to the finger than an old sloppy one whose springs have lost their springiness and whose centrepins (little axles on every note) have become loose and sloppy. My Bluthner has recently been restored and the action is now as new...and my poor old arms and fingers are feeling the difference! However, I know that it's how my piano action should be - not the easy ride I've had for the last 25 years!

[Wurzil]

The dampers appear to be moving after the hammers do, as you say they are supposed to colin, so its not that.

I may try and post a few photos and a video of the insides of my piano and my fingers on the keys etc.

thanks for the replies - maybe in the end, the problem will be identified as "user error".

Warren

[Colin Nicholson]

Ok, thats fine. As Gill says, on a newer action, the damper springs will have more tension in them, and sometimes its a matter of becoming accustomed to the "new feel" and touch. If the touch feels excessively heavy however, get your piano tuner/ tradesman chap to test the key weight. I have a set of small brass key weights to test the "depth weight" of the action & keys combined. The weight is measured in grams, and the weights come in 32g, 16g, 8, 4, 2 and 1 gram individual weights - bit like kitchen balance scales, but on a smaller scale.

I restored my piano action 15 years ago, and I can remember it being fairly light to the touch then - in fact, I have just measured the weight of Middle C, and its around 50 grams. You sit the weights on each key (the key should move down a fraction), then when you depress the sustain pedal (releaving the tension of the damper springs), the key slowly moves down on its own. You can also try it with various coins - don't quote me on this, but try about 10 X 2p coins? (could be 11) - not sure, but if you have some digital scales, throw some coins in it to equate to around 50 - 52 grams. Take care though, a 10p coin is too big, and overlaps the adjacent keys. If not sure, get your tuner to test various keys. Remember also that the bass end is always heavier than the treble because stronger/thicker damper springs are used, and the hammer heads are larger.

Try the coin trick !!

[Colin Nicholson]

Out of interest, what was the name of the other piano?
No 2 pianos are alike, in feel, touch & tone - even with the same name, so the "nearly identical" piano will probably have a different mechanism, and will not be identical.

[Wurzil]

the other piano was a bentley (this one)

http://www.sharonmusic.co.uk/product_de ... 133&page=1

the cabinetry (except the colour) and the hammers/harp etc all looked the same even down to the "red-wax" sticker on the metal frame. Of course even if it was made to an almost identical design in the same factory, the two pianos could be ten years apart in age, so different parts could have been used here and there and one will be worn in more than the other.

Ill have a dig round for some change tonight and do the key weight thing.

thanks for all this!!

w

[Wurzil]

im off on my hols, so i wont get round to doing the coin test and pictures until i get back in a week or so. i think ive decided to get a piano tuner to give me an opinion on the instrument and advise me on whether to try and change it for another one.

w

[Pianomate]

If it's a shortish cased "compact" piano with a sloping front then it is going to play quite differently to a full size and height upright if you have been used to one of those.

[Wurzil]

Hiya all - just to say in the end i paid for a tuner to come and give me his opinion and he says the piano is in great condition and plays ok. hes gonna come and do a few small adjustments and tune it next week.

w

[Colin Nicholson]

...... so after all that advice & various posts - whats wrong with it? - what needs adjusting?
Would be nice to know.

[Wurzil]

the tuner seemed to think there was nothing wrong with it. he was also a pianist and played some really complex fast stuff without any problem. he did say that the dampers were pressing on the strings very hard, and something about springs being tight. he also said that the piano seemed to have very little wear on the hammers and that it looked like it had hardly been played during its life! Im guessing then that what GIll said was pretty much on the button, and its just that the other piano has been played more and has looser springs.

he only came round for a quick look - he will be back in a week to tune it, I will ask him to test the key weight and ask what can be done to lighten the action if anything at all. I presume the whole action cant just be screwed closer to the strings??

Im feeling a little happier with my purhcase now oh i found another name inside it when he had it apart Kastner Wehlau was written on the action.

Ill post the key weight here after he's been.

thanks for all the help!!

w

[Wurzil]

found some pics of another identical piano (different name on cabinet)

http://marketplace.ukpianos.co.uk/Kastn ... 0000002137

[Wurzil]

oh no!!! and now ive found this thread which says my pianos action is rubbish (especially as im paying £980 for it)!!

http://www.piano-tuners.org/piano-forum ... f=3&t=2162

errrr should i cancel the tuning and look into getting the tradesman to take it back, and get a different piano???




w

[vernon]

This is a Barratt and Robinson piano from
The Grove
Tottenham
N London.( no longer in business)
If in good order it will prove quite a serviceable instrument at that price.
No alteration in the tone or touch is realistally obtainable.

[vernon]

This is a Barratt and Robinson piano from
The Grove
Tottenham
N London.( no longer in business)
If in good order it will prove quite a serviceable instrument at that price.
No alteration in the tone or touch is realistally obtainable.

[Colin Nicholson]

I would ask your tuner to bring his weights (if he has a set?) - they sometimes don't carry them. Most have them in their tuning case, but very rarely are they needed for a tuning visit. I tend to use them after regulating a piano. These are not be confused with lead weights - for levelling grand piano keys (and the box is very heavy!!) - so state brass key depth weights.

[vernon]

i should clarify my assertion that "no alteration in tone or touch is realistically obtainable"


Of course,I meant to add "providing it is regulated and tuned properly"
I took in a s/h upright last weekrecntly sold by a shop that had the damper slap rail hard against the jacks at rest so the thing didn't even work properly

[Wurzil]

Hi - just thought id update - ive got the tuner here now, giving it a tune up!!

ive just stuck a load of pennies on the middles c and it comes out at 52.5g which is pretty normal, going on what colin said and on the opinion of the tuner. strangely the lower keys do not weigh heavier, they weigh about the same of maybe a smidge lighter????

it has got plastic parts in a couple of places: where the keys balance (balance pin?) the key has a plastic insert instead of felt; and the centrepins on the action for each key are little plastic inserts and not felt and brass. These are only a problem when the get old, worn and go wrong so im told - my tuner thinks the piano plays well and shows little sign of wear, so that is reassuring.

thanks again everybody for all the advice about my Allison (barratt and robinson) piano, and thanks for the reassurance.

now all ive got to do is learn to play really good, so i can justify kicking out my flatmate and getting a grand!!!

warren

[vernon]

The front and balance plastic bushings are able to last for ever and were a super invention to occasionally they can click if they spli.
It's another british advance that promised to advance had they not gone piff

[Qcam2010]

Hi - just thought id update - ive got the tuner here now, giving it a tune up!!

ive just stuck a load of pennies on the middles c and it comes out at 52.5g which is pretty normal, going on what colin said and on the opinion of the tuner. strangely the lower keys do not weigh heavier, they weigh about the same of maybe a smidge lighter????

it has got plastic parts in a couple of places: where the keys balance (balance pin?) the key has a plastic insert instead of felt; and the centrepins on the action for each key are little plastic inserts and not felt and brass. These are only a problem when the get old, worn and go wrong so im told - my tuner thinks the piano plays well and shows little sign of wear, so that is reassuring.

thanks again everybody for all the advice about my Allison (barratt and robinson) piano, and thanks for the reassurance.

now all ive got to do is learn to play really good, so i can justify kicking out my flatmate and getting a grand!!!

warren

I too have a B&R piano. Sounds like your keys are the same as mine. I recently sat my grade 1 exam and couldn't get used to the difference on the exam piano where you only had to look at the keys and they played (ok slight OTT there ) but you know what I mean. But I read somewhere it's better to learn on a heavier action and get used to a lighter action on other pianos than the other way round. Not sure how true that is but I LOVE my piano and wouldn't change to another. B&R's rule