Bergstein, Berlin & Hamburg

[gj3103]

Dear sir,
I just purchased a very old vertical piano and I can not find any information about the manufacturer...I was told that the piano arrived to my country, Chile, in the early 1900's.

It has a bronze inscription in the front, with the name BERGSTEIN BERLIN-HAMBURG, and two bronze medals, one on each side of the name. One medal says Berlin 1879 with the II Reich coat of arms, and the other reads"dem verdienste seine krone"

The piano has 85 keys. Inside the piano box, the number 16523 is carved in the back panel along with a capital letter H. I would much appreciate any information I coud receive that could help me find the history of my piano.
front open
Thank you very much,
Norma

[Bill Kibby]

This is almost certainly just an attempt to look like BECHSTEIN, not a real maker, and all we can say is it is after the 1879 exhibition, I would be surprised if it was made much more than a century ago. How they could claim medals is a puzzle. If only I could find the exhibition catalogue. Have a look at the Piano Names page at www.PianoGen.org

If you know how to remove the action (the working parts of the notes) safely, it may have the action maker's name and number, and we may be able to date this. See also the Datemarks page at www.PianoGen.org

"Dem Verdiensje Seine Krone" is a phrase to which references can be found from at least 1849 to 1903, the latter the title of a literary work: It means "The merits of his crown". The same phrase appears on exhibition medals awarded to Weber, Dietzer, Laurinat, Lubitz, Schiemann & Schotz, mostly from 1879. See the Medals link at www.pianogen.org

[athomik]

"Dem Verdiensje Seine Krone" is a phrase to which references can be found from at least 1849 to 1903, the latter the title of a literary work: It means "The merits of his crown".

That should translate more like "To the service of his crown", probably a bit like "By Royal appointment".

[Bill Kibby]

I stand corrected, I am only quoting what other people have told me!

[gj3103]

Dear Bill,
Following your advice, I went inside the piano and found the following;
An ink stamp, with a name... a bit hard to read...(a screw was right in the middle!) but is something like C. Schweh.... Co.
Here is the pic.

Also, on the side of the key mechanism, we found
Oscar Kohler-Berlin 8 , and the number 476208

I hope this will help us find out some more about the origin and date of my piano
Looking forward to your comments.
Many thanks,
Norma

[gj3103]

Hi again... I think that the ink name says C. Schworr & Co. I made a close up of the picture, and when seing it in black and white it is easier to identify each letter... Not sure if the name makes sense to you...
Regards,
Norma

[Bill Kibby]

The action (the working parts of the notes) was made by Kohler, and the number suggests that it was made around 1917, so that is a very useful thing to know. You can find these numbers at the bottom of the Numbers page at www.PianoGen.org

[gj3103]

Thanks Bill for the information provided.

One last question; based on what we have found so far, what do you think is the best probable manufacturer or brand name of this piano??? Certainly not Bergstain... since that name does not figure anywhere... but could it be Schowrr?? is that a valid brand name?? and if so, were they any good?? I am investing quite some money into repairing the piano and I would realy like to be able to determine the real manufacturer.
Thanks so much for all your help.
Norma

[Bill Kibby]

I thought the name looked like Schwohl, but we have no record of them, and I would guess they were dealers. We have no way of doing active research on such German problems, we can only hope that fragments of information will turn up from time to time.

[gj3103]

Yes... it is SCHWORR... I scaned the photo and seeing it in black and white it is easier to read. So, I will search for that manufacturer. I hope I find something... If I do, I will let you know.
Thanks again, and best regards.
Norma

[david g]

I would also vote for "Schwohl", though there may be another letter behind the mark. I think they may have been the shop that sold the piano. The address is given below, though it is largely unreadable: "...okerstr." (i.e. ...okerstrasse). Funnily enough, I have cousins named Bergstein! (They did not make pianos.)

[Grenache]

Aha, I've done some digging...

I looked closely at the image, and changed the contrast, and I think the name is Schwohls.

A google search for this name found an advertisement placed in April last year for a Schwohls (Berlin) piano for sale in Brasov, Romania.
http://www.anunturi.ro/anunt-Anticariat ... 33697.html

The Romanian text states that the piano is in exceptional condition, ideal for both classical and jazz pianists, and it has a "double English" mechanism in very good condition.

So, it looks like Schwohls of Berlin could be what we're looking at. The ad has an email address, so it might be worth following it up in case the seller has some photos or more information.

[david g]

Good work, Grenache!

[Grenache]

Thanks! The Romanian was a co-incidence, I'm trying to learn that language, and I happened to have two Romanian colleagues in the office when I saw this one. I go there regularly, but I'm too far from Brasov to make a trip out of curiosity.

But, I've done some more digging...

This time, I looked for Oscar Kohler, and found this reference on a Chinese website (translated below)

http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... n%26sa%3DG


quote

I have a Neufeld berlin piano, it has a serial number 7528. Munufature by 1890 (I don't know accurate date). In the recent days, i can't search any useful information about this piano's history, development, price and collection value. I write email to English collector to ask help for this piano. he answer as the following information.
Established 1872.
1879 Neufeld received a medal at the Sidney Exhibition, which is mentioned on some pianos.
1880 Neufeld received a medal at a Paris Exhibition, which is mentioned on some pianos.
Circa 1885 L. Neufeld, Berlin upright # 5100 "made expressly for Jens. V. Hoffmann, the sole agent, 29 Eleanor Street, South Shields." The Neufeld name is cast into the iron frame, as well as on the fall. A picture may be available of the name. The action is a small tape check action (type SOBR) with buttplates. The top bridge has pressure bars throughout. The case has three moulded panels, fluting, tray music desk, carved columns. 65 German-style overdampers. Iron frame has no headbar, and has the name Neufeld cast into it. The keys are single-bushed, ivory, 7 octaves AA, the pilot screws. Lock-key solid type. Pedals inside the bottom board, the flat brass feet, celeste soft pedal with rods up to the keyboard, lateral (horizontal) damperlift. Vertical stringing, rusty, 28 monos, 47/48 break between notes. Wrestpins square, black, rusty.
1890 Another medal?
1891? Dale Gardner emailed from Seattle USA about an L. Neufeld Berlin upright described as being 1891, although this date is not explained: "I would be very interested in any information about this piano. I know that it may not be worth much as a piano, and although it sounds and looks great (after the tuning). I can not find a serial number, only a brass plaque with information about some international exhibition in 1890. If you know anything about it please let me know. Thank you for your time! "
L. Neufeld grand Circa 1908: Ian McGuiness emailed from Bolton, Lancashire: "I have just bought the L Neufeld baby grand from Iron Church Antiques in Bolton as a birthday present for my wife. Underneath was a label," The Music Box "Prestwich Manchester . It plays reasonably well but the case (rosewood) is a bit knocked about. The iron frame is overstrung. Overall length is 62 inches. Any offerings as to history, age etc? I took a further look at the instrument last night and saw numbers etc behind the fall (thanks for terminology!) Reading left to right: There is a red triangle label with "OK Mechanic" on it, then a stamped rectangle containing "DRGM 241,134" Then impressed "Oscar Kohler Berlin 344825" I guess this is enough for me now to be able to identify it. (I thought at first it was Austrian because of double headed eagle over the L Neufeld name.) Cheers! "

I get this piano about 1983 at shengyang conservatory of music. (In Shenyang Conservatory of Music at the warehouse). This piano is from Russia about 1950 (at that time Russia piano professors teach our students) [allegedly pianos is the former Soviet Union, but the former Soviet Union experts had come home, they left it to the pianos). Finally I paste some photos about my Neufeld Piano, if you interest in this piano, Pls contact me any time with EMAIL nannette_sh@yahoo.com (If you are interested, contact me with nannette_sh@yahoo.com)

unquote

There are also some pictures on that forum too, but they don't look the same as Norma's.

Incidentally, Norma, I noticed that you've posted queries on another forum, http://www.pianored.com/forospiano/view ... f=5&p=4359 , so if you get any leads there, please let us know, I'm quite interested too.

[Grenache]

Ok, here's another lead re Oscar Kohler. There's a reference to this Berlin-based company in the following linked document, in Dutch (which I can't understand fully). It seems to be a lisk of archive documents of musical instrument makers, or similar.

http://www.regionaalarchieftilburg.nl/a ... EG0138.DOC

It mentions:

"Berlijn, Oscar Köhler, Aktiengesellschaft für Mechanik-Industrie." in the attachment list of "leveranciers" - which I think is Dutch for "tradesman, purveyors" (according to my translator)

That list also mentions "KESSELS, 1907 – 1930" - the maker of my piano

[gj3103]

Hi Grenache; Hi David... Thanks!!! you are realy making some progress in this search.. I appreciated. I have not received any other information from other site searches... if any thing come up, I will post it.. By the way, I did send an email to the Romanian seller... but nothing there either.
By the way, the piano is being tuned and getting in good shape!!!
Thanks again!!
Norma

[gj3103]

Hi friends!
Just to see if a few more pics of the piano interior can help to identify it!!




Any thing you can tell me about the piano structure and type I would appreciate it... I really don't know much about technical stuff and the tuning people I hired are not very interested in research so they don't say much!! jeje
Thanks again!!!
Norma

[Bill Kibby]

It looks about normal for a German 1917 upright. Having undressed it that far, did you take the keys out and check them for datemarks? If you do, check that they stay in order, especially if they are not numbered.

[daviesbenny]

Norma

Did you find out the make of your piano because mine is very very similar internaly.

Ben

[timmbo2]

I have an upright C. Schwohls & Co (Berlin) piano which I have played since I started aged 7. I am now 51 and still getting a lot of pleasure from it practising, playing and teaching. I remember my Mum playing it when we went to visit her parents in the early sixties but I don't know where it came from or how long they had it. I have never heard of or seen another one and no-one I know seems to have heard of them either, are there certain things I should look for in the way of markings or numbers?

[Bill Kibby]

If you want to have the best chance of responses to this item, you should post it as a new topic, under its own name. It's not a name I know, and no dates of serial numbers are available. If you know how to remove the action safely (the working parts of the notes) it may be marked with the action makers' name and number, and we may be able to date this.

[Shleene]

I have had an upright piano since I was a kid. Don't know where it came from. The only thing I know is that "Schwohls" is written on the front. I am now thinking of selling it, and thus tried to google search for some info. I found absolutely nothing except for this conversation. Can anyone help me in any way possible?

Thank you!

[Colin Nicholson]

Schleene

Thanks for your enquiry, however sifting through loads of previous posts going back to 2008 are related to other pianos - so its best to start up a new post with a fresh heading for more help to you. Also - what advice do you need? you haven't said what help you need, only that you are interested in selling it.

If its a valuation you are after - we dont do them here (see blue box at the top of this page), you will need to book a piano tuner - you will need to tune/ assess and inspect it's condition. If for example it was like the piano right at the top of the page with loads of missing ivories - wouldn't get anything for it..... and ebonised black is not popular now - very out-dated.
Most old pianos like this - around 100 years old tend to sell from about £0 - £50 at auction - then less commission & charges.

So.... send some pictures like the ones above, and we may be able to date it for you & provide some info.... but value-wise, pop it on Ebay and see what happens - start with £1 ...... no reserve.

Hope that helps

[Bill Kibby]

C. Schwohls was a German maker, did you email me about this recently? I have no details.