New or restored piano?

[allegrotj]

I am a piano teacher/pianist thinking about changing my current piano. The toss-up is a new one (such as a Yamaha grand), or an early 1900's newly traditionally restored German grand, such as a Bluthner or Bechstein.

Although I prefer the sound of the traditional old German instruments, I just wonder how robust a well - restored piano of say 100 years old would be, given that I work on a piano on average 3 hours a day, and whether a modern instrument is going to suit my needs better.

Also, can one expect actions in old pianos to be noisy to an extent? In other word is this normal? What would be the risk of a restored piano developing clicks and creaks with regular use not long after restoration, and chronically having to be fixed?

I wonder whether someone would be able to advise?

Many thanks in anticipation

[Colin Nicholson]

Obviously the cost of a fully restored German grand would be a fair bit more than a new Japanese grand piano - depending on the size of the grand you want? Anything below 5ft, and you will lose quality in the bass region due to shorter and thicker strings.

If you see a German grand and it says "fully restored" - then check the price - if it has been restored FULLY - expect to pay in the region from £25K upwards for it. For this money, there should be a new action, new wrest plank/strings & pins, and a complete overhaul to the keyboard, pedals, dampers & casework. No matter how much you restore an old German piano, there will always be "shrinkage" - and it is unlikely (and not cost effective) to replace the soundboard, bridges and support braces etc. I have found on some Steinway grands, even after restoration - after a few years, some of the strings lose down/up-bearing slightly, and there is inharmonicity between certain treble unisons. Certain unexplained geometrical things also happen to old pianos, and along with shrinkage, glue joints dry out and as you said - eventually may give rise to a buzzing bridge, "false beats" (even on new strings) or eventually collapsed bridge pins (unless it has been replaced).

Personally, if you play for over 3 hours a day, and teach to a reasonably high standard - say up to Grade 8/Diploma standard - then perhaps think "new".

Even a fully restored Bechstein/Bluthner/Steinway.... etc will not last forever, and after 100 years, the piano will become a time bomb!

Lets say you bought a fully reconditioned Steinway Model 0 - about £28K or thereabouts, well for the same money, you could buy a decent 'newish' concert grand - say a Kawai RX7, or for about £10K less, a RX2.
New grands are solid & robust - stay in tune for much longer because all the structure is new & tight.

Also if your budding pupils want to learn about the sostenuto pedal on a grand, most old grands don't have one. The duplex scaling is also more refined - and some new actions are partly made from carbon fibre - giving less rise to brittle parts in say, 20-30 years time.

Also if you look at other "restored" old grands, avoid the 'Simplex" action, and ensure you get the roller (double escapement) action mechanism. Check also that all the dampers lift off exactly together (simultaneous lift) when just pressing the sustain pedal lightly - they should all "wink" together in unison.

Even buying a restored classic car, not every single component will be replaced - not impossible, but not cost effective - so even with a new engine/ gearbox/ chassis/ interior etc...... there may still be a slight whistle as wind enters into a window seal!!

Anyway, I haven't covered absolutely everything on this subject, and alot of it is down to your personal taste. Yes "German hammers" do give off a pleasing tone, when well voiced - but so do alot of Japanese grands. Hope this has helped a bit.

[sussexpianos]

Well, its a question of taste and budget. The new (or nearly new) piano will give you better reliability, better tuning stability and better overall performance than an older grand but it does depend on what’s been reconditioned or replaced? The ultimate would be new wrest plank and soundboard, new action (not just new shanks etc) and put together by a professional. This will give you a wonderful piano with traditional features but with a £18k+ price.
For a little more you can get a new Yamaha C3 or Kawai RX-3 grand which will give you reliable service and impressive sound without being too big. But with no traditional looks.
If you want the looks of an old piano but without the huge budget then you need to consider it will be like looking after an old house, bit of maintenance here, consideration with humidity and regular tunings and then maybe a big repair at sometime but you get the character.
At the end of the day, it is taste. If you can live with a modern piano then Id go with that as it will offer you the best value for money. If you want looks, buy old but find out what’s been replaced and what’s been cleaned. The bare min you will need for an older piano is new hammers, shanks, rollers (get a roller action).
That’s just my opinion by the way but you will be using it everyday for work, claimable back from the tax man over a few years!

[allegrotj]

Many thanks for the helpful thoughts, Colin and Sussex Pianos, and for the valuable information - it will certainly help me in coming to a decision!

[allegrotj]

Just a further question - someone has warned that the actions of old pianos are/can be noisy, with particular reference to Bechstains made in the early 1900's. Is this true, and if a piano is well restored, is this necessarily the case? Can one expect a reasonably noise-free action from a restored instrument of that age?

Thanks in anticipation

[Colin Nicholson]

It would be interesting to know (from your friend) which part of the action caused the noise?
If everything in the action has been restored carefully, using the right materials and glue - it should be nice and smooth & quiet. Not really heard of a "noisy" action!!

Sometimes in an action (depending on its age, and what extent the repairs have been made), you can get "on & off clicks" - as an example, an 'on' click occurs when you depress the key down, and it may be a hammer head loose. An 'off' click occurs when you let go of the note - and in some cases of insect damage, the jack may hit bare wood if the cushion felt is worn or missng. Other 'noises' can occur from the pedals, either inside the lyre, in the trap mechanism under the keyboard, or even the lyre stay may be slightly loose - causing a creaking noise.

All old pianos have distinctive noises & tones of their own - it is virtually impossible to name an action that is renounded for being noisy - if it is, it will be faulty somewhere & troublesome, and best avoided. Old pianos are more likely to inherant the odd unusual sound here & there - even a hinge screw coming slightly loose will drive you round the bend - and in some cases, "sympathetic resonation" can cause an object nearby the piano to resonate, like a central heating radiator, fire-place companion set, or the humble ornament. Newer pianos are less likely to cause noises, but it does happen. In all my experience of tuning/playing piano - very rarely is a buzzing noise, rattle etc. just down to the action itself. Try and few pianos, and see for yourself.

[allegrotj]

Apparently it took ages to find the fault. Eventually pivot rocker centre pins were replaced with thicker pins. Noise on most keys went away as a result of this. It was a prominent metallic sounding click upon release of the keys. Initially Protec was used on the leather key bushings, and everything there cleaned, which did not seem to eradicate the noise. All other areas were explored through a processs of elimination, and finally the pivot rockers.

Currently there remains the same prominent click in about a dozen keys I believe, and two keys have developed a woody knocking sound when pressed. She has been told that it isn't possible for a professional restorer to provide a completely noise-free action in any piano made in the very early 1900's, and that there will always be some mechanical sound audible and present after restoration. 

[vernon]

WHAT ON EARTH ARE " PIVOT ROCKER PINS?"(sorry about the caps)

We may be able to help

[allegrotj]

I think they are the rocker regulating screws?

[Colin Nicholson]

Sounds like the key capstans? but then I am lost when you mention "key bushings". If the leather key bushings were worn on the centre rail, I would never use Protec!!! ..... needs to be re-bushed with red bushing cloth - probably about 1.3mm cloth, and the centre rail pins cleaned up, polished and (an old wives' tale) - very lightly smeared with vaseline, then keys eased in. Sounds like a bodge job to me!!

Who did this job I wonder, and said that the noise would never go away?????

Send a photo if you can - but take care removing the action, and don't touch the keys as you slide it out.

[sussexpianos]

Apparently it took ages to find the fault. Eventually pivot rocker centre pins were replaced with thicker pins. Noise on most keys went away as a result of this. It was a prominent metallic sounding click upon release of the keys. Initially Protec was used on the leather key bushings, and everything there cleaned, which did not seem to eradicate the noise. All other areas were explored through a processs of elimination, and finally the pivot rockers.

Currently there remains the same prominent click in about a dozen keys I believe, and two keys have developed a woody knocking sound when pressed. She has been told that it isn't possible for a professional restorer to provide a completely noise-free action in any piano made in the very early 1900's, and that there will always be some mechanical sound audible and present after restoration. 

The early Bechstein grands had a rocker system (trade terms "tied") which the action was connected to using a tongue pushed onto a pin. These would become noisy if worn or the rockers were not properly adjusted. Many techs’ would screw one end down and not touch the other end so it became loose and rattled. By changing the bushing cloth of these tongues you can improve the fit. The best way is to add a Renner conversion kit. This is designed to remove the rocker system and replace with a modern capstan. The levers also need to be removed for new style and the rail adjusted. This way you get a modern action feel and still keep the keyboard etc. Protec should never be used on leather bushings or keys with bushing cloth come to that (use prolube on key pins for bushing cloth only). The leather should last a very long time, a lot longer than bushing cloth. To look after leather bushings, apply French chalk and rub in. If the keys have leather and you need to replace them, replace with leather. Renner sells the leather in reels for easy application.

[allegrotj]

Thank you all for your expert comments and information.

Correction: ] I have looked up my notes and see that Teflon was applied last week to the front rail pins. The key bushings were not replaced in the restoration process because the restorer said they were still perfectly good. If needing replacement, he does not replace leather with cloth, only leather as in the original pianos.

Protec was used on all hammer flanges and the flange bushings, not on the key bushings.

[Colin Nicholson]

I find that any kind of Prolube or silicon based spray/ liquid used on "action centres" is just a temporary measure, and OK for releasing tight centres, but I have seen on some actions that it can oxidise and turn a mouldy greenish colour - aswell as the nickel plating becoming black, and rubbing against the bushings - then the bushings need to be replaced as they become contaminated. I tend to re-pin the flange and they last a life-time. I have seen these rocker capstans on Bechstein grands, but not had the need to adjust them - assuming you need a Bechstein screwdriver to adjust them? I can see why there are problems adjusting them!!

[joe]

Protec usage is not restoration process ok for a few stickies on an old piano to keep it going for a year or two cause the cost of recentring is too expensive.If the action is noisy would suggest prolong bushings are worn at the piont of contact with the rocker or capstan screw ,can you offer more info regards model of Bechstein age and price etc.

[vernon]

nice to see the word "prolongue" correctly used by Joe to replace the aforementioned "rocker" which to me is only the long bit of firewood that works the pedals.
All old Bechsteins had leather key bushings that are now generally in powder form.
I see no aesthetic reason for not re-bushhing in cloth as Bechs obviously got it wrong in the first place.
The prolongues are now so old that they a likely to be perished and when re-connected, split with no apparent solution,
adhesive or metaphysical

[joe]

Thanks Vernon for correcting my speliiing Pronlongue to my limitied understanding is the long piece of wood that connects the undercarriage or lever mechanism to the keys commonly seen in Bechstein pianos of that era.






















Thanks for correcting my bad spelling Prolong to me is the piece of wood that connects the levers to the back of the keys commonly seen in Bechstein pianos from this era.

[sussexpianos]

I was told by a German piano man, who is now the technical expert at Renner that you should always replace leather with leather. The leather does last longer and if the key was designed for leather, it should have leather.

[vernon]

Ah but!
Where do you get the appropriate leather tho'?
In my youth( here we go again) there were 1/2 dozen piano part supply houses.
Bill Kibby will tell you about them.
We could get calf skin, doe skin, goat skin, sticker vellum, drum vellum,banjo skins,goat or cloudy calf, calf or goat, split skin, rat skin(! honest). and even catgut clock weight strings.
I dread to think what is on offer in any Israeli piano supply houses.
I'm talking about the 1960s not the 1860s.

[sussexpianos]

Ah well! Vernon,

Renner can supply you the leather in reels as they do with bushing cloth. It makes it much easier with a bushmaster. Just the right width.
These days I look at many supply houses, Germany and the USA. There are a few large companies in the US which have an impressive selection of tools and materials. Its the only place to get Steinway socks and boxers!

[Gill the Piano]

. Its the only place to get Steinway socks and boxers!

[jackg]

http://www.phil-taylor-pianos.co.uk/sh-pianos.htm
A Steinway B restored for £18K?

http://www.bluthner.co.uk/used-grand-pianos.php
Or a Bluthner for £25k?

[Michigangirl]

Restored piano would be good, I think. You can find one that has a quality that is as good as new but not as expensive. I find this web very interesting. I hope it helps. http://4tepiano.com/Articles/new-or-rebuilt.html

[joseph]

My two cents:

For a professional situation where you want a piano thats going to be a workhorse, I'd always go for new. Obviously it depends on your budget and what you are looking for, but in general there are only two reasons to go for a restored/rebuilt piano

1. To save money over a new piano of the same make
2. You simply prefer the sound of a rebuilt period instrument.

The kind of rebuild you would require for that amount of work should include a new plank, soundboard and possibly action if you're looking at 100 year old pianos, otherwise, stick with new. New pianos are more robust, sound and feel fantastic, and for me are generally more musically satisfying. Pianos made today are more precise than instruments of 100 years ago.

If its a full rebuild, expect to pay a hefty sum. At the end of the day, its what you are willing to pay and whether you think the instrument is up to the job that counts. If you are an experienced pianist (which it sounds like you are), take an experienced tech along to any piano you want to buy and between you, you'll get a sense of whether the piano is right.

[joseph]

. . .. . and I speak as a pianist with a little technical knowledge.... enough technical knowledge to know that I should leave the technical stuff to the professional techs!

When you find a good tech, either marry him/her, or treat them like you want to, because really, there is no greater friend to a pianist or piano teacher than a good tech. Don't be put off by the fees they charge, honestly, they are truly worth it.

[joseph]

Thank you all for your expert comments and information.

Correction: ] I have looked up my notes and see that Teflon was applied last week to the front rail pins. The key bushings were not replaced in the restoration process because the restorer said they were still perfectly good. If needing replacement, he does not replace leather with cloth, only leather as in the original pianos.

Protec was used on all hammer flanges and the flange bushings, not on the key bushings.

oh.... nice.....