Mangeot - Steinway Piano

[drplockmeyer]

I recently purchased a grand piano from a consignment shop in Washington DC. The key-board cover and the harp both indicated that it was a Steinway piano. I sent photos to Steinway in hopes of identify the insturment. No serial numbers were visible. However, Steinway 1864 has been written on various pieces of the piano.

Steinway's response was as follows: The numerals 1864 are not a date in my opinion. They are possibly the serial number. The fact of a flat plate in combination with 20 bass notes tells us that it is not a Steinway piano. If it were a post-1872 Steinway, it would have a cupola plate. Also, the long bridge is not centrally located as it should be, and the compression bar in the bass corner does not have the proper configuration to be a Steinway piano. It appears to be a circa 1872 to 1875 counterfeit Steinway, possibly of French origin. If it were a Steinway piano, it would have a 5-digit serial number.

Subsequently I had a piano tuner come and work on the piano. He was quite certain that the harp is an authentic Steinway component. However, he noted that the piano has been restored and 'modernized' with newly legs, etc.

I posted what I knew on Piano World forum and Mangeot-Steinway was one of the possibilities. I was referred to a U-Tube video of a Mangeot grand for sale and in my humble opinion, the harp in that piano and the harp in my piano are a match. I was hoping that someone on your side of the ocean might be of some assistance.

[Bill Kibby]

It seems clear from the markings on the frame that this is a Steinway, so presumably Mangeot was just the retailer. You may find some answers at

http://www.uk-piano.org/piano-forums/vi ... 58&start=0

and others you can find simply by googling "mangeot steinway"

Please give us the complete, exact wording that is shown on the piano.

In 1876, Mangeot made a grand with two keyboards, "Piano A Claviers Renverses" - one reversed - the notes in the opposite order! Six were built, plus a few uprights. Mangeot also made some grands marked "System Steinway".

[drplockmeyer]

The wording cast into the harp is presented in four lines;
Line 1: STEINWAY & SONS (9/16" lettering)
..
Line 2: PAT ' NOV. 29, DEC 20 1959. (PAT is 9/16" lettering, dates are 3/8" lettering)
..
Line 3: JUNE 5 1866. (dates are 3/8" lettering)
...
Line 4: NEW - YORK (9/16" Lettering)

STEINWAY & SONS is printed on the keyboard cover but obviously added after the piano was restored and painted/stained black.

Thanks in advance for the assist. If this does prove to be Mangeot-Steinway, do you know of someone there who can reproduce the music desk, legs, and lyre?

Denny

[drplockmeyer]

Here is photo of the piano as it looks today. There is a similar but smaller graphic engraved into the case on the right rear of the piano as well.

[Colin Nicholson]

I also find this piano interesting, and have difficulty in believing that Steinway think it is a counterfeit.
In 2004, I visited Steinway in London, and found their convention worth while. At the end of the day, they presented me with the Steinway volume - over 200 pages, containing every invention they made, including all their patents and numbers, and dates.

Steinway seem to enjoy 'advertising' their realms of glory and inventions on another piano, and yours is no exception. In the "Steinway Patents" catalogue, they have clearly listed the inventions done to previous instruments.

I think line 2 should be 1859? and on the date mentioned - 29th November they had improved the Plate flange with agraffes (patent number 26300) and also various modifications to the grand action itself. Although the writing "June 5 1866" will not mean anything on your piano, on this date, they had invented the Double Iron Frame Upright Piano, invented by W. Steinway. This may seem irrelevant, but clearly marks their landmarks in the innovations of Steinway - so I find it difficult to understand why Steinway have sneered this - unless another company has copied their patents.

It would also be interesting to see a photo of the mechanism (removed from the piano), to see if the tubular action frame had been employed on these pianos. For example, the hammer rail on a modern Steinway is a tubular section of wood, encased in brass tubing - with holes drilled out for the hammer flanges - this keeps out damp and unwanted environmental changes in the atmosphere to try and preserve a rail that will not warp or bend, thus changing the hammer distance to the strings & maintaning goo regulation. The rail is also sometimes lined with a strip of cloth to even keep out damp where the screws enter the rail - thats the lengths that Steinway go to!

[drplockmeyer]

You are correct, the date is 1859 on line 2, not 1959 as I erroneously indicated. I was told by the piano tuner that I've employed that the mechanism is Renners. He will be returning here on the 20th and I will try and get additional pictures of the internals of this insturment.

[drplockmeyer]

I've come across another interesting article showing the same lettering on a harp in a Freres Mangeot Steinway grand piano. You can see this at the following URL: http://www.abc.net.au/tv/collectors/sho ... 604250.htm

[drplockmeyer]

Might someone out there have some good pictures (a pattern would be super) for the swan legs, lyre, music desk, and bench for this Freres Mangeot Steinway instrument? I would be interested in hearing from someone about actually crafting these pieces. Additionally I would like to find a decal or clear picture of the graphics that goes on the key cover.

[Bill Kibby]

There's a lot you can do on the internet just by concentrating on image searches. I have no idea what you mean by "swan legs".

[Colin Nicholson]

I think for something like this, I would advise you to contact Steinway themselves. It is very unlikely they will have the parts in their stock, but may be able to suggest a cabinet maker/ carpenter etc who is suitable to do the job. When I visited Steinway in 2004, I was referred to John Ross (National Manager of Technical Services) and email was : servicecentre@steinway.co.uk

Regarding the decal for the 'key cover' (correct term is 'fallboard' ) - I would highly recommend you contact Kim Pierce (from Pierce Piano Atlas) - this is in Albuquerque, New Mexico. They also do the decals for the soundboard, but if its missing, the strings would need to be de-tensioned in that area, but not recommended if strings are old. Their website is http://www.piercepianoatlas.com

The name on the fallboard would have originally been brass inlaid, which is possible stained & polished over? They may also do the "pedal lyre" motif which is the emblem for Steinway. Most decal kits need to be applied with varnish, and they also do serial numbers & string gauge numbers.

Hope that helps.....

[Bill Kibby]

The swan-shaped legs are a Mangeot feature, I still can't work out why these should be used on what is clearly a Steinway piano. Nobody is going to set up a production line to cast iron frames with copied Steinway wording. According to Tony Murphy, before the Hamburg Steinway factory opened, Theodore went to Nancy, France, and had some sort of agreement with Eduard Mangeot to build pianos for the European market, but something went wrong, and Steinway eventually sued Mangeot in the French Courts and won.

[drplockmeyer]

This is what I received back from Steinway:

There is nothing in our archives to support Mr. Plockmeyer’s claims that Steinway & Sons had an agreement with Freres Mangeot, nor provided any parts. Freres Mangeot in Nancy, France had their own plate-casting foundry.

The saga continues:

[david g]

Lot 57 in the Piano Auction at Conway Hall next week is a "Mangeot & Freres A 7ft late-nineteenth century grand piano in a burr walnut case on scroll legs; this piano has a Steinway & Sons patent frame." The legs look sort of curvy. Are these the swan legs you were referring to?

[drplockmeyer]

We are continuing on with the repairs to this instrument and refinishing the case. I'm looking for good pictures or patterns to replicate the ''original" music desk, lyre, and legs. I have found a workcarver in Southern Maryland (USA) who is willing to undertake the job of replacing the modernized spade legs, lyre and desk if I can get him a pattern or come clear pictures.

[Colin Nicholson]

Steinway is a different 'ball game' , I just hope someone will take on your piano? Have you had a quote yet? If its a reputable restorer, they should give a free quote, even if you are not ready yet to pay up

[faizjoks]

The Mangeot - Steinway, built in 1870 surrounded by controversy. I am looking for someone with that instrument with original legs, lyre, and the bank of the music. I think I have a Steinway-Mangeot and could use the information so I can rebuild the piano. The piano has a medallion showing the first dealer of Steinway Baker St London, where I think it was sold. I know 3 other instruments of its kind in the world, France, England and Canada. Would this piano is considered a family member Steinway.

[vernon]

We rebuilt one of these in the 1980s in East Kent.I can probably find where it went.
It's serial umber was either 611 or 911 and Steinways didn't want to know.
as they said they had an example of an even older model!!
We sold it to a lady who lived in Doddington Kent living next door to Virginia Wade the tennis player I seem to remember whose dad was the local vicar I think.
How about that?

[drplockmeyer]

It appears that there are two of us on opposite sides of the Atlantic Ocean that are attempting to restore an Mangeot - Steinway grand piano. Ours is serial 1864. I would also be interested in any patterns, or clear photos that could be used to create patterns of the original legs, lyre, and music desk. Send from Saint Leonard, MD, USA

[Colin Nicholson]

In the Steinway book I have (as mentioned), there is no reference whatsoever to Mangeot - I have scoured the book thoroughly. However the craftsmen who were employed to carve the exotic caseworks on some pianos were headed by Juan Ayuso, his eldest son Severo, and his youngest son Eugene. Many pianos were highly decorative, and one of the leading Steinway consultants (of the period) was J. Burr Tiffany, who would consult Juan at great lengths for the next design. During William Steinway's presidency (1876 - 96), they produced both upright and grand pianos with a variety of case styles - the Vanderbilt Steinway is a classic example built in April 1893 - Model D concert grand and decorated by Cuel & Co in elaborate white - and - gilt decorations and stunning gold pictures of romantic scenes/ gilded mouldings and paintings of cherubs, cupids and flora-and-fauna decorations.

Henry Jr was awarded the patent in 1859 for moving the bridge on the grand piano to the middle of the soundboard, which achieved more resonance.

The photography throughout the book is mostly carried out by Margaret Bourke - White (around 1934), and also photographing various components of the pianos such as legs, lyres, music rests and the factories. Also alot of this information was revealed in the "Fortune" magazine - alot of the photos are stunning.

This may help your lead in the photos you need of your piano, but again, a shot in the dark!