Square piano Meincke Meyer?

[darkroom000]

I can not find a name or serial number on this six octave square piano. It was purchased in Amsterdam in 1927. My research leads me to Meincke Meyer, 1795. Photos at of the piano are at - https://sites.google.com/site/secretaireorgan/home.

Any opinion would be welcome.
Thanks
Mark McMahan
Birmingham, Alabama

[Bill Kibby]

I'll have to think about that one, and go through our stock of images. The style of legs seems too early for the rest of the piano, or at least imitating badly those of the Bach period. Are we supposed to think this belonged to Bach? He died in 1750, querpianos (square pianos) may not have even existed then, there seems to be no evidence to support dates much before 1759, when Handel died. The pedal leg also looks odd, and it would not have had pedal if it was that old. Even then, 6 octaves was not on offer. Off the top of my head, I'd say that rounded front corners and curved nameboards like these are almost unkown before 1817. My estimate is 1822.

[Bill Kibby]

I would say the legs were made when the nameboard was rebuilt, removing the fretwork soundholes. It appears to be English, perhaps a Broadwood, in which case it would have a number inside in the region of 26,000.

[darkroom000]

Thank-you for your thoughts on this matter.

Concerning the Bach Portrait: It is simply one of the four items I am helping the owner sell, there is no connection to the piano other than that. The portrait is well known around the world and is usually referred to as "Bach portrait number five". A professional restorer is currently re-evaluating the chemical dating report.

The piano: I had the date of purchase wrong, it was 1929. The family who owned this piano were Teding van Berthout, governing patricians of Amsterdam. The legs are original and the style (Louis XVI), fits the period, six octave square pianos have been available since at least 1794-95, examples of square pianos without fret holes are abundant, the action appears to be English single square action, designed by Zumpe, Meinke Meyer arrived in Amsterdam in 1779 claiming to have been a partner of Zumpe, (there is some confusion surrounding this claim), Meincke and his brother Pieter Meyer produced pianos in Amsterdam from 1779 until 1820. The rounding of the corners may push the date a little.

So...that is where I think I am with this, but I am an amateur. I am hoping one of your members can produce a photo of a similar work. Anyone with information or photos may email me at "organphotos@gmail.com"

Thank-you again for your thoughts on this matter.
Mark McMahan

[Bill Kibby]

I'm sorry I didn't appreciate that you were the seller, who seemed to be saying he was in Canada. There seemed to be the implication that the piano was connected with Bach, that's why I was saying there were no 6-octave pianos then. All I have to go on is a collection of over 12,000 images, thousands of pages collected over 47 years, and friends who have more hands-on experience of early squares than I do. I may be wrong.

[NewAge]

I too checked through my photos of square pianos and was unable to find anything identical.

Incidently, I just loved the comment in the description; 'may need tuning - last tuned shortly before World War II'

[Bill Kibby]

Yes, I have shared that one with a number of people! Lucy Coad, who has more experience in restoring square pianos, feels that the legs may be original, and says it resembles Meyer instruments she has seen in the Gemente Museum, but is a bit later. Someone else has a Broadwood almost identical, 1802-ish, with the same unusual wrestpin arrangement. Various people have commented about the wrestpins being too newm, and very red-rusty, whereas one usually expects some sign of black paint or lacquer.

[darkroom000]

Thank-you for your opinions. Having started with a knowledge level of zero, I am beginning to find this quite interesting. As I have said in the past, "If I knew what I was doing, I would be finished by now." Any information is welcome. We are removing the name board this morning to shot some more photos.

Thanks again,
Mark McMahan

[Bill Kibby]

I wonder if the back of the nameboard has holes?

[darkroom000]

We have removed the name board, no holes, marks or inscriptions. I removed a key and photographed it, I will post those later.

While discussing this with the owner, who is from Holland, and is also a Baron, he had an interesting theory concerning the blank name board. He said that since the Berthout family were the "administrators" of Amsterdam, they may have not wanted a Jewish name displayed on the name board, therefore it was left intentionally blank at their request. I have known the owner for over 30 years. He has a Doctorate in Theology, was a Dutch Reform Minister, and has a fantastic knowledge of European history. While it may seem strange, after the conversation we had, I have to give some weight to this argument.

Thanks again
Mark McMahan

[Bill Kibby]

I have been unable to find comparable photos of Meyer squares, but what you describe with the name certainly occurred in the First and Second World Wars.

[SweelGeel]

By chance I came across this interesting e-conversation.

Our museum takes care of the Sweelinck Collection of square pianos including some Dutch ones by Meincke and Pieter Meyer.

If I can be of any help to you concerning the square piano of ds. Teding van Berkhout (not a baronial, but a 'jonkheer' family, i.e. 'nobility without a title', comparable with 'Sir' in England or 'Freiherr' in Germany), please let me know.

www.museumgeelvinck.nl

[Bill Kibby]

My impression is that this piano has nothing to do with Meincke Meyer or Bach, and would be after about 1817. With your collection and hands-on knowledge, what do you think of the pictures? Or of the 6 octaves?

Bill Kibby-Johnson
Piano History Centre

[darkroom000]

Here are the links to the photo galleries. Any opinions?

Square piano: https://picasaweb.google.com/organphotos/101D5100#

Secretaire organ: https://picasaweb.google.com/organphotos/101D510002#

Mark McMahan email = organphotos@gmail.com

Web page for these objects https://sites.google.com/site/secretaireorgan/home

Feel free to make an offer. They are for sale.

[Bill Kibby]

I think the text is out of sequence with the photos, or a photo is missing. The piano seems pretty much as I said in 2003, probably after 1816. Have a look at
http://pianogen.org/square.html