The British Piano Manufacturing Company

[Britpiano]

Hi,

I am enquiring as to what happened to the remains of what was the 'British Piano Manufacturing Company'. I believe there was an auction circa 2003 selling all Work In Progress and production equipment. Does anyone know of what happened to the machinery, the management or the workforce?

I have read on this forum that some of the Work In Progress was completed and sold by Phil John and a Cheltenham piano shop. Is this still continuing, and who now owns the brand names and designs of Knight, Welmar, Marshal and Rose etc?

Final question, is there anyone else apart from Kemble producing pianos in the UK?

Many thanks

Nick

[mdw]

I think the names went to intermusic as they have been appearing on various pianos from the far east plus some petrofs rebadged as welmars.
There were a load of PhilJohn badged pianos on ebay a few weeks back that were made from the left over bits.
Bit sad realy but you want cheap pianos thats what happens. I guess as Kemble are more and more just assembleing there wont realy be a reason for them to be around soon.

[PianoGuy]

I think you're both right. Inter Music now imports Chinese pianos with the Bentley brand name, although these seem just as iffy as the English ones were in one way or another, and a member of this forum (sirprize if I recall correctly) visited a shop in Cheltenham to try some new-old-stock Knight Savoy examples built after BPMC closed down. I'm not sure who owns the Knight name nor the rights to build the original designs though.

I have a feeling that some of the PhilJohn pianos from Llanelli existed earlier than the demise of BPMC, but I can't be sure. It seems like he's been on eBay with them for ever.

I can't help agreeing with mdw. It's a terrible shame that we no longer make pianos here, but they needed to be better than the last from BPMC ever were, or at least priced competitively.

The management I think mainly retired early, but Roger Willson was the MD, and he's now in charge of the Blüthner showroom in London, and some of the sales representatives now work for Music Brokers/Perzina. I would have thought Roger Willson would be the person to ask what actually happened to everybody/everything else!

[Britpiano]

Many thanks guys for your information - much appreciated.

I'll probably contact Roger Wilson about what happened to the designs and the production equipment. I'd be interested to see if there is still a business case for a low volume high quality British piano which has export potential.

I believe there was also a West Yorkshire company called Laurence and Nash with some of their products ending up at the BBC.

[PianoGuy]

Alistair Laurence was the man. I think the Laurence and Nash pianos were made in Ilkley or Otley or somewhere lovely and Yorkshire-ish. Later he teamed up with Ken Forrest to produce the Laurence & Forrest or somesuch!

He was also instrumental in the revival of the Barless Broadwood upright design. Once again I think forumite "Sirprize" knows much about this subject. Try sending him a pm!

[sirprize]

Yes I visited http://www.cheltenham-piano-centre.co.uk/ last year (Spring I think) and they had 3 or 4 Knight Savoys which were the last ones at the point of liquidation of BPMC. You would have to ask Cheltenham about their precise history/provenance but I believe they were bought either as parts or semi-assembled. When I was there last year I tried ONE showroom-ready Savoy and was told the others could be made ready within a few weeks

Regarding the Broadwood Barless issue: I've followed this for a number of years. The expert is Alastair Laurence who's been in Norway for quite a while but due back in the UK this April I believe. I tried one of the new barless uprights built to special order by Ladbrooke Pianos of Birmingham 2 or 3 years ago. It's a nice sounding/playing piano but Alastair for one is scathing about the build-quality. I've actually been in the unusual position of trying out TWO vintage Broadwood Barless uprights for sale in the last 6 months

Yes it's sad there is now no 'home-grown' piano manufacturing in the UK. There is still a large reserve of knowledge, skills and tools......but only just: many craftsmen who worked in design/manufacture are now well into their later years

[PianoGuy]

I tried one of the new barless uprights built to special order by Ladbrooke Pianos of Birmingham 2 or 3 years ago. It's a nice sounding/playing piano but Alastair for one is scathing about the build-quality.

I'm not sirprized (see what I did there!?). The frame of the Ladbrooke piano was slapdash enough to have the brand name JOHNBROADWOOD & SONS cast into it, the bass strings were of iffy quality and the excessively tall action (usually a Langer, but there may have been a couple of Renners fitted) seemed uncomfortably wedged in place teetering on lengthy bolts leading to the possibility that it could move slightly in its cups resulting in bouncing hammers.

Every year in the late '90s and early 2000s I would visit the Brum trade fair and it seemed that Ladbrookes would display a Barless. I have a sneaking suspicion that it was the same unsold example every year. The black cabinet had the polyester equivalent of cellulite.

Great potential, if only the build quality had been up to scratch. Coincidentally I had the misfortune of having a BPMC model Broadwood and its identical Welmar sibling to tune yesterday. I have never heard such string falseness, and octaves dropped out of tune throughout. Like the Ladbrooke piano, the tone quality was rather nice, so I could forgive the owners for choosing them, but I had to admit defeat in both cases and say to a dismayed client that their precious and very expensive pianos were virtually untuneable, and to try another tuner since I was so confident that nobody could make a better job of it. It was almost as if the soundboard wasn't fixed into the back! Have any other tuners experienced the same thing with a late BPMC piano?

[pianobrereton]

I beleive the Laurence and nash pianos were very well made and that the BBC bought some of them . I wonder what quality the Broadwood barless made by them was ? Labrookes took over production of them when Laurence and Nash went out of business , they even made a barless grand , what happened to it and the equipment used to manufacture them when Ladbrookes closed down ? Is there anyone else manufacturing the Broadwood barless ? Its an interesting design and im sure if it was made to a high enough quality it would find a market . I had heard a rumour that they were going to be made in Norway , i hope not, it should be made here if anywhere. What was the quality of the original Broadwood barless pianos ?

[sirprize]

I beleive the Laurence and nash pianos were very well made and that the BBC bought some of them . I wonder what quality the Broadwood barless made by them was ? Labrookes took over production of them when Laurence and Nash went out of business , they even made a barless grand , what happened to it and the equipment used to manufacture them when Ladbrookes closed down ? Is there anyone else manufacturing the Broadwood barless ? Its an interesting design and im sure if it was made to a high enough quality it would find a market . I had heard a rumour that they were going to be made in Norway , i hope not, it should be made here if anywhere. What was the quality of the original Broadwood barless pianos ?

I didn't know that (re L & N making the Broadwood Barless prior to BPMC). I agree that it's an ideal design (the harp concept) but interestingly Alastair Laurence believes the tonal benefits of the UPRIGHT barless are not nearly so noticeable as on the GRAND barless. I've only ever seen two Broadwood barless uprights of the pre-1920s period. They are very well built, light-rosewood cased with some decorative elements. Their white keys are shorter than the modern 'norm'. I would have bought one of them but my car broke down twice on the way which cost me £400 and I could no longer afford it. It was sold to a family - who had no idea of the rarity of the instrument - as an ordinary learner's piano. If you want to see pics of it private-message me with your email details

[PianoGuy]

I didn't know that (re L & N making the Broadwood Barless prior to BPMC).

If L&N made them, it would have been prior to Ladbrooke's not BPMC.

BPMC never made the Barless although it was at one time demonstrated on the BPMC/Whelpdale stand at the BMF in Brum. The BPMC Broadwoods were based on a conventional Welmar frame or a Bentley frame depending on model. The Welmar framed versions were awful.

[Barrie Heaton]

I didn't know that (re L & N making the Broadwood Barless prior to BPMC).

If L&N made them, it would have been prior to Ladbrooke's not BPMC.

Ladbrooke's no longer make them as Ladbrooke's are gone the men in Black came

Barrie,

[PianoGuy]

Ladbrooke's no longer make them as Ladbrooke's are gone the men in Black came

Barrie,

Indeed.

Has anybody bought the remains of the company?

[Barrie Heaton]

Indeed.

Has anybody bought the remains of the company?

Pass Also, what will happen the the patterns will they end up in the bin like a lot of the stuff at Perry Vale


First piano of the day is a Brodwood c1950s

Barrie,

[pianobrereton]

There seems a bit of confusion here, i never said that the BPMC had manufactured the Broadwood barless . The story is...... After taking over control of Broadwoods in 1985 Geoffrey Simon decided to steer Broadwoods back to it's glory years by manufacturing something that was uniquely Broadwoods and had test done at the national engineering Laboratory into the feasibility of making the frames in cabon fibre . In the end it was found to be too expensive so cast steel (not cast iron )was used instead . In 1986 Laurence and Nash became involved and after 2 years of development produced a Large experimental upright which apparently was quite a magnificent instrument.
Unfortunetely L&N were experiencing Financial difficulties at this point and all the equipment was trancefered to Ladbrooke,s and production resumed there and they even made a barless grand that was played at the Royal college of Music in 1997. Unfortunetely Ladbrooke's went out of business recently too. But what happened to the grand ? What happened to the manufacturing equipment ? Are Broadwoods going to continue production some where else ? I hope so !

[golledge]

RE:Laurence and Forrest pianos/ Laurence and Nash pianos

I was lucky enough to have been taught by both Alistair Laurence and Ken Forrest at Leeds College of Music in the early nineties when the piano tuning and repairs department was in the basement of Jacob Kramer Art College.
I have been to their 'factory' in Otley, it was in the old mill with the tall chimney on the outskirts of the town. A small affair perhaps but the quality of construction was superb. I seem to recall they used bone from the pelvic girdle of a cow to manufacture the 'ivories' which gave a grip,that is much better than ordinary plastic ones.
I seem to recall they also made two special pianos to order, one was a Broadwood barless upright and also a grand piano with a Viennese action.
I have been told that Alistair Laurence has bought Broadwood, his grandfather worked for Broadwoods for many years, I believe Braodwoods are being made but not in this country. Alistair I have been told lives for most of the time in Norway. I know Ken Forrest still tunes pianos in Yorkshire, he tuned for a concert at York Univercity not long ago
Leeds College of Music used to have a Laurence and Nash upright, don't know if they still have since they moved.
Incidentally if anyone has an interest in the history of the development of the piano ( and the pipe organ as well) there is a technical mueseum in Vienna that is really good, all the instruments are kept in a special climate controlled room, very well presented and well worth a visit
Hope this information is some use.
David G

[pianobrereton]

Alastair Lawrence has indeed bought Broadwoods and has relocated them to Finchcocks in Kent . His family connections with Broadwoods goes way beyond his grandfather in fact all the way back to 1787
I believe the green frame Broadwoods are being made in Norway . I spoke to him last year and he said that they would be making Broadwood uprights in England again but I haven't heard anything since . We should definitely be manufacturing Quality pianos here again !

[Pianomate]

I can see a niche market for custom made pianos like the Broadwoods but sad to say in the mass market everything is going to come from the far East.

In 50 years time I expect that acoustic pianos will account for a tiny minority of keyboards with almost everything going digital. As far Eastern economies grow their pianos will no longer be as competitive and prices of electronic models will go down in time.

There will I expect remain a sizeable nubmer of older acoustic instruments knocking about, limited to the Japanese, German and better made English ones, perhaps with a degree of nostalgia over Victorian and Edwardian styles, possibly with a number of restorations. I reckon the 20th Century straight strung overdamped cheaper models will have almost completely disappeared.

[pianobrereton]

Unfortunately I think you are right .
The people who used to by the cheaper pianos are buying digitals, though if they are serious they do upgrade to an acoustic eventually .
Like you I also think that there is room at the top to build top quality pianos with individual tasteful case work designs, far removed from the ghastly polyester bling bling ones all to common from the far east .

[Pianomate]

All those with cheaper finishes, chipboard cases etc will not last as most will in time become scruffy.

I can see the European manufacturers further consolidating and becoming more like Broadwood and August Forster etc is today, concentraring on small numbers of high end and custom built instruments with custom casework.

Digital pianos will obviously improve over time and I reckon they will account for over 95% of total new piano sales. They will also become more versatile and have more sound functions and more detailed programming.

The second hand market for acoustics will still persist and there will be a requirement for technicians, and I expect that restoration of "antique" instruments will be more common.

[Barrie Heaton]

Alastair Lawrence will be giving the Alfred Knight Memorial Lecture in Birmingham on Broadwoods next month

They do have some new models but I have not seen the specks yet Broadwoods did stop making pianos in the far east - production will move to the UK however, pianos will only be made on request.


Barrie

[pianobrereton]

Alastair Lawrence will be giving the Alfred Knight Memorial Lecture in Birmingham on Broadwoods next month

Is the lecture open to all and where abouts in Birmingham ?

The second hand market for acoustics will still persist and there will be a requirement for technicians, and I expect that restoration of "antique" instruments will be more common.

Again I agree with you !
The wood and the craftsmanship on the best quality older pianos is excellent much better than the fibre board let alone chip board of some more modern instruments and I think polyester only looks good on black anything else just looks cheap .

[Barrie Heaton]

Alastair Lawrence will be giving the Alfred Knight Memorial Lecture in Birmingham on Broadwoods next month

Is the lecture open to all and where abouts in Birmingham ?

Well its bit awkward as its the ABPTs AGM but.... I am going to ask Alastair if he will let me record it with a view of posting it on tinternet but he not not an internet lover, intact he is just coming to terms with the phone. he is a pen and ink man.

Barrie,

[pianobrereton]

Well not to worry , I was just curious !

[faizjoks]

Phil was a load of piano John badged on eBay a couple of weeks ago, who had been bit. Nostalgic piano really want cheap, but this is what happens. I think so Kemble always assembling only tend to be really worth all soon. Beijing Xinghai Musical instruments are impressive.

[Gill the Piano]

Eh?

[pianobrereton]

Ehh indeed

[vernon]

what dat mean?