Winkelmann Braunschweig Upright Piano 1936

[pinhead]

Hi there, I posted in another section earlier requiring advice on the above named piano that I recently acquired. Can anyone advise me where to find the correct s/n number for correct ID?

Thanks in advance

[Bill Kibby]

The simple option is if you can open the top and find it easily visible inside, but it isn't always as simple as that, they can be hidden all over the piano. Have a look at my Numbers page at www.pianogen.org

Then look at the Datemarks page.

Is 1936 thought to be the date?

[pinhead]

Hi Bill, Yes I believe it to be 1936 as I have found this date written on parts on the inside. I am not a Piano person or very knowledgable about them. I have this piano because I moved house and found it had been left stored in one of my sheds. My girlfriend and I have always wondered what history might be behind it. It looks quite nice TBH even if it is a bit dusty! I have attached a couple of pictures to let you see what tags and ID's that are under the lid.

[pinhead]

Hi again, do the attached photos and numbers make sense to anyone in the know?

[Bill Kibby]

I have been unable to find any dates for Winkelmann numbers.

[Gill the Piano]

If they're the same as Zeitter und Winkelmann, then it's 1908. Which looks about right for the pics, I think - I don't know when Winkelmann hooked up with Zeitter though!

[Pianomate]

Can you post a pic of the case?

These German instruments were usually well built and of good robust quality.

[pinhead]

Hi again, 1908 would that not make the piano an antique? I will go and get some photos of the piano just now, if it aids in identification.

[pinhead]

Hi, Here are a few pics of the piano, its quite dusty!! Hopefully these might help. I notice that there appears to be something removed from the two front boxes either side of the floral pattern, perhaps some form of decoration

[Pianomate]

Looks like it has had the hammers refelted fairly recently. Something appears to be misaligned as the hammers have not all returned to the rest position.

The brackets at the front would have been for brass sconces, removed when houses had electric lights fitted. With the style of case with the marquetry motif and the mouldings indicates that 1908 could well be the correct date. You may find something written on the side of the far left hand key if you know how to get it out.

The 1936 is probably the date when it was resold second hand. By 1936, the cases of new pianos were more art deco styled and far less ornate.

These pianos were pretty well made and solid and could well be worth restoring depending on condition of the internals and whether it has suffered from damp or dryness. Externally it seems OK save for the dust.

[pinhead]

Hi Pianomate, Thanks for the reply. I done a google search earlier and discovered that some pianos had candle holders....snap on that one. Yes you are correct in saying that there is something amiss with parts not returning to the original position, some of the keys when pressed stick down and and the internal parts that i pictured stay up instead of going back.

Condition wise, It appears to be okay, I was thinking of going out and giving it a clean tomorrow just to see how it comes up.

I would imagine when you say restored you are talking about a proffesional carrying this out?

How can I remove the far left key to see if there is something written on it?

[Pianomate]

See PM

[Bill Kibby]

My computer is feeling unwell this week, so I apologise for the delay in answering. Zeitter & Winkelmann merged around 1900, but I have no definite answer to whether the numbers merged as well. 1908 seems reasonable for the design, and yes, of course it would have had sconces (candle-holders). Undressing an upright piano is usually very straightforward, as long as nothing is too warped, just keep removing bits until you can see the full length of the keys. Then, you can carefully lift them out, but make sure you keep them in order, in case they are not numbered. Clean under and around them by all means but NEVER attempt to open out the holes through which the pins go. This will make them stick even more. Have a look "Gen about pianos" on my own website at pianogen.org - especially Datemarks.

[pinhead]

Thanks Bill, I have done lots of work on cars in the past but havent ever considered stripping a piano down! I have also recieved good information from Pianomate with regards to cleaning. A relative told me just to throw this paino out as it was old and required work but i thought that would be a waste of a piece of history. I live on a small croft in scotland and even wondered if the piano had been part of the farm setup many years ago when it was a working farm.

[Pianomate]

The piano was probably an essential part of the local shindig!

[pinhead]

Thats exactly what I was thinking! But without any information on the history of it and how it got here, Its guesswork. Perhaps a previous owner bought it and left it. Perhaps this previous owner re-felted the hammers? Is the action ( noticed from the ppt ) related to the keys sticking and the hammers not returning? Could this have been incorrectly fitted or misaligned? resulting in the sticking?

[Pianomate]

Could be a number of things - could be the keys have twisted slightly in the keybed due to moisture (tuner can usually fix this fairly quickly), could be dirt, slight rust on the pins under the keys, misalignment, May be obvious if you can get the action out safely.

Whatever you do, never use oils or greases or anything like WD40!

[pinhead]

I have just realised that this thread should be re-named, "Winkelmann Braunschweig German Overstrung Upright Piano 1908" that would be more accurate now that we have done a bit of researching.

If i take the keys out what would i be looking for on the far left key that might aid in identification?

[pinhead]

After some advice from pianomate i have been out hoovering the worst of the dust off the casing and taken the front panel off and had a look inside. I have taken some pictures of the internals pictured below. I think a lot of the felt etc looks in good condition for its age and even the glued parts are still fixed.
apologies for using incorrect terms as you can tell, i'm very new to all this. Hopefully the below pics might help.

[pinhead]

Hi again, I have been cleaning this piano up over the past few days so thought i would post a few pictures. After careful consideration I have decided it best to try and sell this to someone who could re-vitalise it. It may well be appearing on a well known auction site in the next couple of days.











I have the above pieces which screw onto the front panel. I never removed these.

I think it looks a bit better with all that dust gone.

[Bill Kibby]

Just to correct what I said earlier, an 1890 advertisement for Robert Cocks & Co. shows that although
they sold "Winkelmann" pianos, the makers were already known as Zeitter & Winkelmann.

[pinhead]

Thanks Bill, I have this very moment advertised this item on ebay for anyone thats interested. Thanks all for your help.

If I could play piano i wouldnt have considered selling at all. But I realise it requires specialist attention.

Cheers

Derek

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... :MESELX:IT

[wilhorwood]

I presume that this is now sold. The serial number for 15492 was from 1904. The logo used on the keyboard lid was only used from about 1903-1904. The company experimented with their branding at that time and used both Winkelmann and Zeitter & Winkelmann names on their instruments. They also introduced a molded round logo in 1899 that was in the centre of the back board, which unusually is not present on your photos, but I am not sure they had completely rolled these out on all products by then.