kaps upright

[christians]

Hi Everyone

My wife (god love them!) wants me to change my 1960's "Topic" piano (its plastic parts are crumbling anyway).
To cut a long story short, i've seen a panzer Kaps upright at my local antiques centre, which the wife would be happy with in our home. The owner wants £270 including delivery and taking the old piano away. Does this seem like an ok deal?
I figured £100 delivery + taking away the old piano making the Kaps £170 which seems ok,
any thoughts?

and thanks for reading ,

[vernon]

I've got all the "Topic"plastic parts you may need!

If the Kaps is approved by a technician it should be a fine robust joanna.. Panzer
means armour plated!

[Peter Smith@PSPianos]

Hi,
You have seen this piano at an 'Antiques Centre'....why not local piano shop ? Surely that would be the ' sensible' route to buying a piano ?
Buying from a 'Antiques' place may mean that it looks very nice....but i would have thought that you would want to buy a good instrument ?
Before you decide... please contact a ' good ' local tuner and seek his expert opinion. Pay for his time to view the piano. If he says that you will need to spend money ( £ 200+ ) then I would re-think.

I can only tell you that any piano that I have viewed at the local ' Antiques ' shop or similar on behalf of a client has been Bad news. I certainly could have made lots of money from all the repairs etc... but it would not have been in my clients interest.

You may be having problems with your ' Topic ' but get the wrong piano and disaster !

Check out your local piano shop. i.e. In my shop £ 295 gets you a straight strung, tape-check action, iron framed, tuned, over-hauled and delivered locally. Guaranteed for 2 years. If money is a concern, speak to your local guy and I'm sure he could possibly arrange a payment scheme.

For a list of local dealer see the pane at the side of this forum.

Hope this helps.
Peter.

[vernon]

Peter Smith
You cannot be given,let alone buy, a s/s piano,take it into your workshop, blow the dust out,wave your regulating tools at it, tune it, guarantee for two years and deliver it for £295 and not starve to death!!
xx
v

[Peter Smith@PSPianos]

Hi Vernon,

By always working as hard as you can on behalf of the customers, taking their trust and ensuring that they get the best possible chance for them, and their kids to have success on the piano....I believe that the customers will come back again and again.
I see too many families getting 'ripped-off'. This only results in them turning away from pianos and either getting a keyboard ( and for that they don't need a tuner) or they try a different instrument. This to me is counter-productive. So get the customer ' hooked ' and you have them for a long time. Tuning, moving, up-grading....but most importantly.....recommending you to their friends.

Besides, coming from a large family, you quickly learned that their was never enough food. If you aren't fast, you're last. When you are hungry you tend to work longer and harder. A principal I contiune with my own children. Dinner in our home is fun....

Peter.

[mdw]

Peter Smith
You cannot be given,let alone buy, a s/s piano,take it into your workshop, blow the dust out,wave your regulating tools at it, tune it, guarantee for two years and deliver it for £295 and not starve to death!!
xx
v

+1
Its our job to educate the customer and some times its better to say hire or wait and buy a good 2nd hand piano rather than pander to their low idea of what a piano is worth or should cost.

[christians]

thanks everyone, i really appriciate the feedback.

i've already got my piano tuner booked to come with me next week.

Just to fill in a few more details, the place where it is being sold has about 10 or more pianos, including steinway grands,its more of a trade shop really but if you phone ahead they let you in. They said they only keep pianos that are worth keeping (they use the others for firewood etc) hence they kept the Kaps. They also said the frame isn't broken but i should get an independent guy to take a look at the whole thing. It Doesn't look done up or pretty at the moment but the case has some nice decoration.
Going back a bit, my wife (and i) think the Topic looks like a coffin and isn't a nice piece of furniture. I realise that seems shallow but for something that you look at, or at least can't miss, the looks are extremly important. I live in a 1930's house full of original features and want the piano to fit in.

I don't play all the time, but when i do i mainly play Chopin (lots of melancholy) and like a very mellow tone. The Kaps seems ok but was obviously out of tune when i tried it. Every note struck, but i realise that isn't the major thing to worry about.

any more thoughts? and i'll try to fine out more about it. Would it be worth finding out where they got it from ? or any other questions i should ask?

Cheers

Christian

[mdw]

thanks everyone, i really appriciate the feedback.

Every note struck, but i realise that isn't the major thing to worry about.

Whilst sticky notes are repairable if the whole action needs recentering its going to cost a lot , it might just be keys which would cost less. The danger with pianos like this is you do one repair, then another and another and by the time you have finished youve spent more than on good modern piano.
This piano will be stuck together with animal glue and we are seeing more and more pianos having big problems in houses with modern heating. I tend to view pianos of that age as having a negative value. If I have to take one away when I sell a new piano then I have to pay £150 for a skip to put 4 pianos in, plus a morning to smash them up.

[Peter Smith@PSPianos]

Hi,

"Every note sticks "

As the plot thickens you get more and more of the story.

I always want to know....where has the piano been ?
who was the last owner ?
why did they sell it ?
what kind of heating was in the house ?

Every answer builds a better picture. Sticking notes could suggest a few things that are not correct. It is possible that the piano just hasn't been played for a very long time and so....the keys stick. ......or .....the house that it came from was ' cold / damp ' ? Must be quite bad for "every note " to stick ? Other signs are veneer lifting ?...a hint of rust ?....ivory keys...condition ...? Another thought could be moths ?
If the action is as badly sticking as every key, the action needs to be over-hauled. And, if as bad as you say, then possibly the dampers need over-hauled as well. A big job ! Cost approx £ 350 - £ 450 ?

Is the piano at pitch ? What is the cost of tuning and how many tunings will the piano require before it begins to settle ?

If you purchase the piano from an ' Antiques' shop and the piano then requires a good amount of work to be done....you will have no regress against the shop because they are selling 'furniture' However, buy from a Piano shop and the piano is found to be faulty...then under the 'sale of goods act' it isn't of merchantable quality and you have a case.

Further, if your tuner says that the piano is fine ...but needs some work to be done....go along to your local piano dealer and compare the cost of a refurbished piano in that shop against the total potential spend on the Kaps.
Remembering, your piano shop will offer a guarantee.

Finally, if you have decided that you really like this piano...then go for it and enjoy.

Good luck

Peter

[christians]

no i meant every note sounded when it was struck! sorry my fault for not being clear.

[christians]

ok anyway, i've just got back from the place where me and my piano tech gave the piano a going over.
minus points:

patch of veneer on top damaged by coffee cup or something. not nice but can be covered by books if i'm really bothered.

couple of keys a bit sticky, but seem easily repairable.

tuning a semitone down, tuner says it seems like he'll be able to get it back up to a440

the action overall seems ok (the hammers are returning)

i'll try to post some pics, but any comments definatly welcome

Christian

[mdw]

no i meant every note sounded when it was struck! sorry my fault for not being clear.

My fault i didnt see the r in struck and read it as stuck

[christians]

i know these pix are poor but i promised.

[christians]

there is a bit of rust about.

[christians]

very poor pix sorry again

[christians]

i've just worked out with this serial number of 22843 it's 1898 . That can't be right,
this link goes to a translation of wikipedia in german on kaps

http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_ur ... =Translate

[christians]

i bought it !
hope it eventually tunes ok.

[Pianomate]

You're best to take the advice of your tuner. Nobody on here can give you a realistic opinion without actually physically inspecting it.

Date sounds about right for casework. Those German instruments from that period are very well built to a high standard so if your tech is happy you should be OK.

A French Polisher would be able to repair the finish damaged by the coffee cup without much effort.

[christians]

thanks for that advice.
what do you reackon it would cost for the french polisher to repair the veneer, and maybe just blend it in? (i'm not talking about taking it away, just tarting it up. or maybe they would have to take it away to do that job?).

[Pianomate]

It would all be done in situ. The beauty of French Polish over lacquers is that it can be easily restored and revived without having to strip right back. My main line of work is restoration, so if I were looking at it from the photos, what I would need to do is glue the lifted veneer back down, splice in some pieces of veneer to replace the missing sections and clamp till set, rub down and re-polish the area, and give the entire piano top a light rub down and tidy up, coat of shellac, then wax polish over. I would normally also repair any scratches or marks elsewhere on the case whilst I am on and waiting for glue to set etc. In all I would probably charge about £50, but the actual cost would depend on time spent. You may also consider having the polish on the entire casework tidied up at the same time using French Polish Reviver, but you would have to ask for a price.

You need to get the tech to spend a bit of time on it first - regulate the action and make sure it will hold tune etc. If it hasn't been touched for a while it will almost certainly need voicing and there may be worn parts requiring replacement etc. Once you are both happy, then look at the case. You don't want to spend anything on the case and then find that the piano is no good.

Many people on here are always going to suggest buying new but at the end of it all it really depends on how much it is going to get used and how serious the pianist is. In reality people have to decide how high a piano is up the list of domestic priorities. Provided the piano is sound and doesn't need too much work, the price you paid is quite reasonable.

[christians]

thanks pianomate good advice.

as a little aside on this piano, having opened it up there is a couple of tuning notes, one from 1923. It was done by an FC Goddard of Buxton on ten seperate occasions up til 1933. Having searched on the internet Goddard + music shops+buxton i came across a sheet music shop in Buxton called Goddards! I phoned them up and had a great conversation with F C Goddard's great grandson (i'd love to get him to tune it!)who also informed me the other name was a tuner who worked in his fathers shop.

I realise it isn't uncommon for tuners to write notes inside so anyone else got any stories?

[christians]

had it tuned and it sounds fantastic!it now chimes and is so mellow.
The tuner said a few did slip the first time but once they were brought up again they stayed. I didn't have a pitch raise to 440 though.
i thought it would be better to tune it where it was ( semi tone down) and raise it in future. I'm not sure if that was the best idea what do people think? How many tunings do people think till it could take being raised (i didn't really have time for him to raise it on saturday, in case strings broke etc)?
also for future reference if it is fine any one know any french polishers in Bolton, or pianomate are you anywhere near?

[Pianomate]

No, nowhere near. Look in the Yellow Pages for traditional French Polishers. You may also find someone under Antique Restoration.

They are always going to slip a bit the first time if it hasn't been done for a while as the wires settle. Best not to do too much first time. Let your tuner guide you. Get him to check if it needs regulating or voicing as well. Most of thoes German uprights are capable of tuning to A440 pitch.