Unisons dropping out of tune are the fault of the tuner?

[crispin]

We have a piano that has tuning problems... however the biggest problem is not the absolute pitch shifting (although this does happen) but the unisons going out of tune. Usually the piano sounds in tune for about 6 weeks .. and then starting around F4 progressively more and more notes start having problems. This last weekend at a very reputable piano shop - they told me that this was caused by a non-expert tuner.
However our regular tuner appears to be good... and in general he does a good job on the tuning .. and the unison are really in good tune in the range C2-C5 after he leaves... (the high notes are a bit shitty). He was recommended by the local conservatoire of music.
Question: if a piano has a problem with the unisons staying in tune ... should one always point the finger at the tuner - or can there be a piano related cause?

[joseph]

6 weeks is a long time for a piano to stay in tune if you're practising on it and teaching on it lots. Mine goes out of tune fairly quickly although it has got progressively better over the 2 and a half years i've had it. I tend to have a full on tuning done in June and December, and then it gets tidied up in March and September or thereabouts.

If the tuning is that bad, but it stays well in tune for 6 weeks, I'd say it's probably not the tuner but perhaps another reason, that someone more expert on the matter than me will know

[crispin]

It is not heavily played - maybe half an hour per day...

[joseph]

......,maybe you should just try a different tuner.....

[crispin]

......,maybe you should just try a different tuner.....

Indeed I will if the experts can think of no other reason... however I have tried two other tuners recently - and these guys could not even tune the unisons correctly ... finding an acceptable tuner is not so straightforward - but the question remains .. do the unisons go out quicker on certain pianos than others .. and is the tuner always the person who one should blame?

[joseph]

If some pianos are more prone to this problem than others, then i don't think the tuner should be blamed. What kind of piano is it?

I know that finding a good tuner is nigh on impossible and when you find a good one they should be treated with the utmost respect so that they want to keep coming back to your piano.

I remember a few years back, I had a problem like that with a Knight upright. It wasn't staying in tune. It was a combination of a rubbish tuner and the piano itself wasn't up to much. Strings kept breaking on it too. They just popped all the time. If I remember correctly, it had such a bright tone that I guess the hammers must have been like rocks hitting the strings. Thankfully that particular piano is in my past. I'm not for a moment saying that Knights aren't good pianos, I'm saying THAT Knight wasn't a good piano.

[crispin]

It is a Bechstein Academy 124 upright... I know that the tuning pins are very very tight... so a lot of force is needed to turn this pins... given that - I wondered whether such tight pins made it more difficult (maybe much more difficult) to set the unison so that it does not budge.. but I am not a tuner (hence the question) ...

[Barrie Heaton]

play the worst note Lift up the lid with a piece of plastic or wood (Lolly stick) mute the left string and play the note and the the right string . Make a note of which string is out

if it is that all the left strings are out then the piano is going flat if it is all the right one it going sharp and its a humidity problem. monitor the room humidity.

if its random across the board it could be
1. new piano need to settle down a lot more
2. tuner is not tuning many new pianos with springy pins and is not got them settled in the plank
3. fault with plank (not seated well )
4. lose bridge pins


Number 3 is rare on uprights


Barrie,

[chrisvenables]

Crispin

Months ago we recommended that you invest in a dehumidifier especially for the more humid summer months and I believe you are still debating whether to buy one or a damp chaser. Personally, I recommend the dehumidifier.

With the onset of winter, central heating etc, the living room humidity level will now drop, likewise the moisture content in the soundboard and the result will be more tuning instability.

Joseph's right, no pianos stay in tune perfectly for weeks, let alone months - some pianos are even tweaked in the interval at a concert.

A stable environment has to be the basic foundation for piano tuning stability.

[crispin]

Just looking at the octave c4 to c5 - (all unisons are not good ~ 9 weeks after tuning) I determine the following... ? means that I do not know - and I would guess that it is the central string that has moved. () means that I am not 100% certain. The majority of right strings are guilty so according to Barrie - this means that it is going sharp and there is a humidity problem... (I am not sure I understand the correlation between the left and right string and going sharp or flat). However there are cases where it is the left string that has gone out - so maybe this is random across the board? Looking at the absolute tuning I see a very small shift sharp - such a shift would not really be observable if the unisons had stayed in tune.

c4 right string
c4# right string
d4 (right string)
d4# ?
e4 right string
f4 left string
f4# right string
g4 ?
g4# right string
a4 left string
a4# right string
b4 left string
c5 (right string)

to Chris: Humidity is not such a big problem in our area ... in general between 50 and 60 % all summer long indoors... the biggest problem is the dryness in the winter since it goes below 0 C for days on end ... and for this we have a humidifier. These guys at this rather excellent Bechstein shop were very negative about the dampp chaser ... their advice was to get some house plants to keep the humidity up in the winter... However they were very clear that it was the fault of the tuner if unisons go out of tune - unfortunately - they do not tune/service pianos in my area - we live too far away so I can not test their words! In the end - I will get a Dampp Chaser + external humidifier for the winter. The piano is in an open area of the house - so this would require dehumidifying the whole house ... which is not practical with open windows etc

On some other thread - I forget which one - someone was saying that on some piano that he tuned - the unisons would always very quickly go out of tune... while on another piano the unisons would stay rock solid in tune. If I understand this statement correctly: the piano is at fault - but last weekend I was told that unisons going out was a clear case of poor tuning. If this is the case - then clearly I should find a better tuner rather than focus all my attention on humidity. I agree that constant humidity is the best situation for any piano - but "the question:" how much is the tuner at fault for unisons going out of tune?

[Barrie Heaton]

Most of the string are on the right which indicates a shift in humidity most folk are now putting their central heating on - at first this can drive the humidity up as the walls were the radiators are give up moisture.


Have you called the tuner back, has the pitch moved on the "A" up or down


Barrie,

[crispin]

Unfortunately this poor piano has quite a tuning history ... It was originally tuned at 442 .. however after a visit from the tuner from the store where I bought it.. I found that he had tuned it up at 446 (however he had noted in the log that he had tuned it to 442) He also had done a very bad job on all the unisons... etc
So our regular tuner was called - he tuned it down to 440 .. then increased it to 441.... but he said that the strings have memory and that it will creep up a bit. I record carefully the piano and then analyse (but the software only gives a whole number for the frequency)... and I find that over the mid range the tuning has crept up one or two cents (100 cents = 1 semi tone).... I am not sure if this creeping up is due to humidity - or the memory of the strings (we have not switched on the heating in our house yet). When I first noticed the unisons going out .. the overall tuning of the piano had not shifted. Anyway part of the unstable unisons that I presently observe can be due to memory etc... However I was a bit surprised how strongly these guys pointed the finger at the tuner when I asked about unstable unisons, which has been a constant problem with this piano. Hence my question to this forum that seems to be read by a large number of tuners.

Overall - the piano still sounds 'in tune' when played... but the individual notes are now acquiring this rather ugly sound of poorly tuned unisons.. no longer the pure ringing tone that I associate with a well tuned piano.

Actually this piano will be replaced ... so I am not going to have it retuned or fit a Dampp Chaser.... but await for the replacement.

[Barrie Heaton]

For any tuner to do a stable tuning the piano has to be stable - if he has to keep pulling all the piano down then it will be unstable, but if he only have to pull the middle down or up and the rest of the piano lines up he should be able to do a stable tuning.

Is there an abundance of local tuners about for you to try a new one.

but rememb4r some new pianos can take two years or more to settle down even on the expensive one

Barrie,