Pressure ridges on the soundboard - in a new piano

[crispin]

As some of you know - I am having this ongoing struggle with unstable tuning. By elimination - it has to be the soundboard... and my tuner pointed out that there are significant pressure ridges on the soundboard - and to him this indicates that the soundboard is changing shape. Are such pressure ridges normal on a piano one year old from a prime german manufacturer? The humidity drops to 40% in the winter and rises to ~ 60% in the summer...
As an example: my tuner told me that one would not see these pressure ridges on new yamahas ...
Can others run their hands over the soundboard of their piano and see if there are ridges at the boundaries of each piece of wood...

[Barrie Heaton]

pressure ridges are caused by excessive humidity the wood has nowhere to go but up. 60% is regarded by some makes as high The problem is when you dry the board out then your get cracks, and failing joints on the ribs . Some makes guarantee is voided over 55%

it only takes a swing of 40% to 50% to alter the pitch as much as 10 cents on a seasonal swing on some makes. if your piano is moving form 40 to 60 then the over night swing must be a few degrees so the piano will swing and be very difficult to make stay in tune

As I have said before you need a piano life saver it will take a few months for the piano to settle but it will be worth it



I have had new Yams with PR in damp homes

Barrie,

[joseph]

my home is fairly humid and I don't have pressure ridges on my Brodmann, which is now 2 years old. However that's one example out of many.

[Barrie Heaton]

my home is fairly humid and I don't have pressure ridges on my Brodmann, which is now 2 years old. However that's one example out of many.

Depends on how much the wood was dried out for the soundboard, what wood is used and how well the soundboad is sealed.

The wood expands when wet, the Wood fibres get crushed after a point they can't be crushed any more so nowhere to go but up.


Barrie,

[NewAge]

Crispin,

After the earlier 'Problems with Tuning' thread, and checks for strings on the pins touching in the dead length or touching adjacent coils, to be honest I can hardly drum up the courage now to check for possible pressure ridges on my soundboard. Out of sight, out of mind etc....
I will however be passing my friendly piano dealer early next week so will pop in for a chat, and take the opportunity to inspect the soundboard of a number of new and used upright Yams, Kawais, Bechstein, and a couple of Sauters - especially a Peter Maly which have been in the showroom for some time. Depending on the result of this I may then check out my own.
Incidently I was interested in getting a Piano Life Saver installed to mine after purchase, but when asked the salesman 'poo-pooed' it, although they had the Life Saver brochures available on display for clients! Similarly after the 2nd in-home tuning I quizzed the tech, who also said a Life Saver wasn't really necessary. I'm now wondering whether this wasn't a reply based on their own self interest, i.e. a more stable piano meaning longer tuning stability and less calls out for them.

Question for Barry:-
If a newish piano such as Crispin's shows pressure ridges over the soundboard, would the installation of a Piano Life Saver eventually restore the soundboard to it's near original profile - i.e eliminate the pr's?

[Barrie Heaton]

to the tuning part I have one client who had the piano tuned 4 time a year and now is on 2. I am going out to a grand next week with had had a LS fitted last year this is the second tuning after fitting, like your piano it would drift after a few days - weeks . I had to call him this time he commented on how much the piano has improved. From a tuners point yes they can do you out of visits but when you do visit its a joy to tune.

as to punting the soundboard back to correct state over time yes, as the crushed fibers well no but the LS will stop the piano drying out.


Barrie,

[crispin]

NewAge

Please investigate at the dealer - have a good look and feel... on my piano both by touch and by eye these ridges are clear....

As far as I know ... and I await to be corrected by the better informed ... there are two methods for making soundboards.. (1) each piece of wood is curved so that the soundboard is made with a crown... (2) the soundboard is made flat and then compressed around the edges so that a crown is formed. I would be willing to bet that with your Sauter Masterclass - method 1 is used - and you will have no pressure ridges. Whether the pressure ridges on my piano are the result of the assembly or beindg in very humid conditions (and I do not count the 60 % humidity in our home during the summer as very humid).

The piano tuner from the dealer (who has now been banned from touching our piano after he tuned it to A446 instead of A442 (another story of this saga) tells me that they had a Bechstein Millenium in their showroom that became very humid and it took a year to settle after that. Their showroom is by a river and a bit below ground level ... I wonder a bit about the humidity there - and I do not know how long they had this piano on their hands

To Barrie

Indeed we will fit a Dampp Chaser ... this seems the only solution ... but I want to understand this problem - which I somehow suspect is caused by cost cutting at Bechstein

[NewAge]

Crispin,
With ref to your comment,

"tuned it to A446 instead of A442"

how did you determine this?
I recall that you have a rather accurate recording device to look at the state of the tuning before and after visits by various tuners - in particular to look at the unisons and look for beats. How is this done, and with what instrument?
For info, I have a Zoom H4, and play back the MP3 recordings using Audacity.

[Barrie Heaton]

NewAge

To Barrie

Indeed we will fit a Dampp Chaser ... this seems the only solution ... but I want to understand this problem - which I somehow suspect is caused by cost cutting at Bechstein

Quality makes suffer more from this problem than cheepo ones in damp places

Why A442 and not A440

Barrie,

[crispin]

Why A442 and not A440

I am not sure ... (a) the piano arrived tuned to A442 (b) the regular tuner said that concert pianos are tuned to A442 nowadays... but I do not know if this is the done thing..
After being at tuned to A446 .. the regular tuner came and retuned to A440 - and then took it up to A441... is this OK?

[Barrie Heaton]

Why A442 and not A440

I am not sure ... (a) the piano arrived tuned to A442 (b) the regular tuner said that concert pianos are tuned to A442 nowadays... but I do not know if this is the done thing..
After being at tuned to A446 .. the regular tuner came and retuned to A440 - and then took it up to A441... is this OK?

A440 is international concert pitch but the old East Germans liked it on A442!! brass and woodwind do sound better on the higher pitch - some violinist refuse to tune up to that pitch

Piano leave factory's at around A446 to allow for drop, in the shop most tuners put them on A441 -2 depending on the shop again to allow for a drop when it is shipped to the house. one shop I go to we leave them on A440 the other shop A444 one is dry the other is wet

Keep puling the piano up and down will make it very unstable, that will be a factor in your piano not staying in tune

Stick to one pitch...... quite a few of my clients have their own fork and insist I use it, most are A440 some are very odd pitches

Barrie,

[joseph]

It's funny that your clients would insist on using their own tuning forks. I have heard some forks at 440 that really weren't! They could be flat, sharp, wavering, dependent on whether or not they've been bashed.

I just trust my piano tuner to get it right. He uses an electronic tuner which is set at 441. The piano always sounds excellent and it's staying in tune fine, I've had no problems with chamber music rehearsals either.

[crispin]

Keep puling the piano up and down will make it very unstable, that will be a factor in your piano not staying in tune

You make it sound as if I have made a positive choice to put it up and down.. I was happy to have it at 442... and I thought I would leave it to the experts to decide as appropriate ... but I find that not all piano tuners are equal - and some are definitely not expert and maybe should not even be labelled as tuners. (I have now been recording the piano before and after each tuning - and unfortunately now know more than I want to know about the expertise of each tuner).

We called the tuner from the retail store since we were following up this tuning instability : when this tuner (from the store) came and said he will tune it to 442... however when I checked it later I found it at 446 .. and the highest octave really unpleasant - some notes were a semi-tone too high - but more crucially almost every unison was badly (very badly) tuned. It was a disaster...

So our regular tuner was summoned ... and then what to do? He did not like to leave it at 446 - since this adds a lot of stress to the whole piano. He also said that the tuner sent by the store was lucky not to break any strings... he also gave his opinion of the expertise of this guy ......

Now the piano is at A 441... should I keep it at this frequency?

[mdw]

I think that if you trust your own tuner you should take his advice and his only as he can see the piano. You are getting loads of differing advice from the forum and other tuners which in the end is going to make things more confusing. Also stick with the one tuner as hes not going to know what has gone on in between time if youve had the shop tuner etc in.

[Barrie Heaton]

So our regular tuner was summoned ... and then what to do? He did not like to leave it at 446 - since this adds a lot of stress to the whole piano. He also said that the tuner sent by the store was lucky not to break any strings... he also gave his opinion of the expertise of this guy ......

Now the piano is at A 441... should I keep it at this frequency?

pulling pianos up and down is not good no matter how it came about they like stability

Yes if that is were you are happy and your tuner is happy 441 is fine Your tuner was right in bring the piano down its not god to have it that high the top treble will run back sharp after a wile if the other tuner was a semi out that not the fault of your tuner that's the other guy fault

Barrie,

[Barrie Heaton]

It's funny that your clients would insist on using their own tuning forks. I have heard some forks at 440 that really weren't! They could be flat, sharp, wavering, dependent on whether or not they've been bashed.

I just trust my piano tuner to get it right. He uses an electronic tuner which is set at 441. The piano always sounds excellent and it's staying in tune fine, I've had no problems with chamber music rehearsals either.

Its manly Violinist and old piano teacher who have had problems from other tuners not putting it on pitch so they like to test when you have done well most only do it the first time

As to trusting tuners we are like any trade that come to your home there are the good the bad and rip off boys

I went out to a 3 month old piano the other week, that piano was in tune with its self sort off scale was interesting dead 3rds, but 1/4 flat and running Flat in the treble. This make of piano leaves the factory 15 to 20 cent sharp. I can only assume that the tuner deliberately tuned it down to save time.

Barrie

[vernon]

some new pianos seem to come in at 444,others at 440.
Our policy is to tune them at the arrival pitch.
Can someone more expert than I am in physics tell us what is the extra stress imposed by this piano tuned at 446!

[NewAge]

NewAge

Please investigate at the dealer - have a good look and feel... on my piano both by touch and by eye these ridges are clear....

As far as I know ... and I await to be corrected by the better informed ... there are two methods for making soundboards.. (1) each piece of wood is curved so that the soundboard is made with a crown... (2) the soundboard is made flat and then compressed around the edges so that a crown is formed. I would be willing to bet that with your Sauter Masterclass - method 1 is used - and you will have no pressure ridges. Whether the pressure ridges on my piano are the result of the assembly or being in very humid conditions (and I do not count the 60 % humidity in our home during the summer as very humid).

Crispin,
With ref to your request to check for soundboard pressure ridges. I was able to pay a visit today to my local dealer, play some interesting pianos (more on this in a separate thread), and look at/feel a few sound boards.
Most of the uprights were placed back to back which really prevented any checks of the soundboards. However the two new Yamahas I checked, had smooth soundboards. I could feel the presence of crown but no ridges could be felt. Same on a new Pearl river. There was one new 116 Sauter. On this I could definitely feel slight ridges at the soundboard panel interfaces. This particularly interested me, and surprise, surprise, when I arrived home, the very same findings.
I would therefore assume that this is normal, at least on certain models. For what reason and the method of soundboard fabrication I have no idea, and leave this to the experts to comment on.
As I said in a previous post, I believe that sometimes a little knowledge can be a wise thing, and prevents unnecessary concern. I won't be worrying about my soundboard, and I suggest you do the same until such time as a problem has been positively identified.

[vernon]

In my experience,the way of making soundboards I have done is to butt joint all the selected boards,ensuring the grain runs like for like,and glue them on the flat.
When dry,,the soundboard was laid on a concave bed,the curved belly bars applied in their positions ready glued then the belly bars were all pressed down by boxwood go-bars thus forming the crown.
I can't see how the planks for the belly could be pre-curved as that would entail fine jiggery-pokery in two planes

[crispin]

I can't see how the planks for the belly could be pre-curved as that would entail fine jiggery-pokery in two planes

I tend to agree... but then how come the Yamaha and Pearl River touched up by NewAge felt smooth?
I have not been to a dealer to feel soundboards of the piano... all I know is that this particular Bechstein has a great sound - but goes out of tune very quickly and I am trying to understand if these ridges are usual... my tuner says that he is surprised by these ridges.

Anyway - thanks for the info NewAge - I intend to fit a Dampp Chaser and bring this story to a close....

[chrisvenables]

Pressure ridges on new quality pianos are fairly common - Steinway actually claim it is proof that the soundboard is tight and under pressure. No ridge - not enough tension they say. As long as it's not due to damp you're fine. Did you invest in the dehumidifier yet?

If the piano has or had been kept in a damp environment you would see tarnished strings and tuning pins at least.

[crispin]

view of inside the piano

I have a more fundamental question: what is the soundboard. This was provoked by NewAge saying that the pianos were arranged back to back - so that he could not access the soundboard.

On my Bechstein Academy... the soundboard (at least what I call the soundboard) one can access and feel by removing the front of the piano. It is spaced off the back/external soundboard with ~2 cm thick blocks along each end... it is the internal soundboard that has the pressure ridges. Feeling the back of the external soundboard - one feels all sorts of ridges and bumps... but I assume that is normal and unimportant.

Question: are all upright pianos constructed with an internal and external soundboard... or is this something found on Bechstein's ? I have tried to attach an image showing the edges of the internal soundboard...

[vernon]

I really can't understand what you mean. I can't get your pic.
Pianos only have one soundboard/belly. What you see from the back is the same one you see from the front!

[crispin]

Indeed - you are correct... I became confused with the wooden frame around the soundboard... indeed the back of the soundboard is accessable at the back and the front at the front...

[NewAge]

piano-a.jpg

On my Bechstein Academy... the soundboard (at least what I call the soundboard) one can access and feel by removing the front of the piano. It is spaced off the back/external soundboard with ~2 cm thick blocks along each end... it is the internal soundboard that has the pressure ridges. Feeling the back of the external soundboard - one feels all sorts of ridges and bumps... but I assume that is normal and unimportant.
Question: are all upright pianos constructed with an internal and external soundboard... or is this something found on Bechstein's ? I have tried to attach an image showing the edges of the internal soundboard...

Crispin,
You showed me yours, so I'll show you mine.........
http://www.box.net/shared/gqnjjgbj8i
General lower view of frame & soundboard.

http://www.box.net/shared/et3jfn12vp
In this 2nd picture you can see that the harp frame is mounted onto ~ 2cm thick wooden strip which runs along the bottom - seen here just protruding ,also along the top (out of sight). The soundboard panels can be clearly seen, the interfaces of which have a very slight ridge which can be felt from the inside here, and also from the back of the piano.
It's interesting to note how different manufacturers mount their frames onto the soundboards.