Yamaha to close down Bosendorfer?

[joseph]

I've heard from someone in the know that Yamaha are definitely going to shut down Bosendorfer. That would be really sad.

[schubert]

I've heard from someone in the know

joseph,

What do you mean exactly with "someone in the know"?
A piano professional [ideally not a direct competitor of Bösendorfer/Yamaha who might have interest in damaging their reputation]?

This type of 'information' on a public forum like this one can be devastating if the source of the information is not checked meticulously.

schubert.

[NewAge]

I've heard from someone in the know that Yamaha are definitely going to shut down Bosendorfer. That would be really sad.

I hope this is untrue. In fact I won't believe it until I read a related official press release by Yamaha.
Similar rumours were heard earlier this year about another German manufacturer and were unfounded.

[joseph]

sad to say not a competitor. someone with no axe to grind.

[Kemble King]

Uncle James, when he was doing your hire last week in that little church for you?

[joseph]

if i told you i would have to kill you

[Floss]

I don't think anyone thought it would happen to Kemble - Yamaha's business interests are best served by taking over or eliminating all European competition; buying up ideas, names and designs and concentrating manufacture in the Far East.

[joseph]

well it does seem odd that since Yamaha produce a high end range of pianos in the SU7, S4, 6, and CFIII that they'd want to own a premium marque like Bosendorfer in order to keep it going.,...? Perhaps they wont close Bosendorfer down, they might keep the name for a series of low end pianos produced in Indonesia?

[Model V]

well it does seem odd that since Yamaha produce a high end range of pianos in the SU7, S4, 6, and CFIII that they'd want to own a premium marque like Bosendorfer in order to keep it going.,...? Perhaps they wont close Bosendorfer down, they might keep the name for a series of low end pianos produced in Indonesia?

...probably re-name their S series Bosendorfer. It's always seemed strange to me that their flagships have the same logo on the fall as the most humble. I'd be amazed if they continued manufacturing in Europe.

MV

[Kemble King]

It wont be long until Steinway are made in the far east as well. 90% of there pianos are made for export anyway.

[joseph]

That would be a pretty crap situation indeed.....

[Kemble King]

I thought Yahama were in a 5 year commitment to keep Bobendorfers in Vienna?!

[Floss]

Even if they have a five year commitment, I see that as being given five year's notice rather than having a five year contract.

[Model V]

Even if they have a five year commitment, I see that as being given five year's notice rather than having a five year contract.

Absolutely. Yamaha are not in the charitable sector as far as I know. I would be disappointed to see Austrian production closed down, but just how many of these expensive units need to be shifted pa to turn a profit? I can certainly see production (as with many "German" brands) revert to the Far East. I would guess it would be in Japan as these would be top line pianos. It could be argued that with the equipment and manufacturing know-how Yamaha unarguably have, the Bosendorfer range could be made with more consistency and a considerably higher profit margin without ceasing to produce a quality product. Would it be the same? Course not. But they’d still be excellent.

As for Gordon's point regarding Steinway; I would be amazed if pianos with S&S on the fall were to be ever produced outside Germany (or the US). Steinway is a much better marketed and more successful brand with a better product (imo) which just about everyone aspires to. AFAIK the company is still US owned, quite a different situation to Bosendorfer. This doesn’t mean they wouldn’t manufacture other brands they own/acquire in places where production is cheaper.

MV

[piano heads]

Steinway pianos that are built are usually sold before been completed,they have back orders up to 18 months,dont see any problems there,high end piano market is more reccession proof,and they are "quite simply the best" no other brand has the magic or build quality of a Steinway.

[Floss]

I understand what you are saying, but if I were lucky enough to win the lottery and be able to buy a house big enough for a large grand piano, I wouldn't choose a Steinway. I know that they enjoy a near monopoly in the concert halls, and that there is a long waiting list, and that many performers swear by them, but many piano technicians swear at them. I have seen some very interesting comments on other piano forums, and Larry Fine hints at this in the 2008-2009 supplement to The Piano Book, namely that the design and build quality are generally high, but cost savings have been made in the amount of final work done in the factory, leaving an enormous amount of the final preparation to be done by the dealer who sells the piano to the end user, with a significant number of Steinways unable to be made as good as they should be (especially given the price).

What one is paying for in a hand built instrument is all the labour and time intensive work which can't be done with mass production. Yes, you can machine finish wood, metal, resin and plastic to a tolerance of a tiny fraction of a millimetre (or inch), but the human ear is still the only thing which can hear the minute differences in how each piece of wood works with the next - wood isn't like cast iron or plastic, it is something which has individual marks from the growth rings and tiny variations in texture; thus it reacts to sound as though it were still living. The very best pianos are made with the best types of wood and worked on by people with collectively years of experience in their hands and ears. That can't simply be transferred to a new factory and given to the most sophisticated machines, or even the cleverest people if they lack detailed experience, without losing the very qualities which mark the very best pianos (such as those listed by Larry Fine in his category 1) from other excellent pianos which are not quite so good.

That's my feeling anyway; I'm sure there are other opinions, but I do know that if Bösendorfer is closed down, something valuable will go for ever.

[Model V]

Please name some "hand built" brands you consider to be better than Steinway.

MV

[Floss]

I don't have a lot of experience, but I believe Sauter to be the best pianos available anywhere in the world. This is based on having listened to a good number of instruments of varying sizes when looking for our new piano, and listening to recordings of top quality pianists (ie much better than I am!) on the very best instruments.

One example. The Chopin Heroic Polonaise Op 53. I have heard two live performances and listened to a number of recordings on vinyl, CD and on radio (this last not necessarily the best way of assessing the quaity of the piano, I accept!), and in only one do the glissano passages not dissolve into a mush, and on only one do the high notes at the climax point stand out against the bass chords sufficiently to give the force of the emphasis that I am sure Chopin meant. That recording os by Eugene Mursky on a Sauter (DCD PH04069 if you want to obtain a copy). There are reviews on the net, one of which I wrote, so I can't quote that in evidence, but others agree with me!

A different example. On the Piano world forum, a Piano technician, Andrew Anderson writes:
... my wife is an accomplished pianist. She is the one who turned me on to Sauter pianos. At the 2005 PTG convention I wanted to hear the Mason and Hamlin CC. She said OK and after she said there's a piano here that I really like...a Sauter. Until then she was a staunch Steinway pianist merely tolerant of my forays to check out other pianos. Now she wants a Sauter.

After we delivered the piano my wife went to play it and I noticed how she was playing her repertoire slower than usual, really digging that singing tone. She got a lot of different color out of it and it just sang and sang and...

... I recommend Sauter over NY Steinway based on my experience with both.

(You can see the whole thread at
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthre ... 925/5.html - hope it's OK to post a link to a different forum). It makes fascinating reading.

I would very much like to hear a Fazioli - a company which only started in 1978 with the intention of producing the best grand pianos it was possible to make. There are a few other possible contenders, such as Steingraeber and Grotrian, but I don't know enough about them yet.

[piano heads]

Heard Fazoli is not going to be available in U.K soon,Steinway and Grotrian-Steinweg are the in our opinion the best built pianos available today and have very consistent productions methods which are hard to better.Shiregu Kawai is also an oustanding piano.

[Model V]

adopts Jeremy Paxman accent:

yyeeeess, rrrright.

I expect they're excellent at best, but whoever's talked you into believing Sauters are the best pianos in the world has some explaining to do. Frankly, comparing them with NY Steinway isn't saying that much.

MV

[Floss]

We seem to have strayed a long way from the point of this thread. However ... no-one has "talked me into" my opinions. I hold those based on my personal preferences. All "top grade" pianos have advocates and that is just as it should be. I have never played a Steingraeber but many rank them up there at the very top. Fazioli ditto. Given that I only have room for and a bank balance for one piano, I am very happy with my choice and, having played a Steinway or two, am confident that Sauter is the one for me. Many people love the Bluthner sound but others find it too "muted" for their tastes. It's a big world out there and there is room (or should be) for many shades of opinion!

[Model V]

Quite right.

MV

[joe]

Buy the pianos whose personality you like,have played some Sauters and the newer ones are certainly better than the older ones,very difficult for some of the other quality German companies to break into the market controlled by the "big 4",if they where not trying to sell them at the same prices,and made them more affordable may have a chance.

[Kemble King]

I visited the Fazioli factory in June. I dont think Paulo gives a monkey's really about who makes the best piano as long as it is his. Amazing factory tour, his workers have all the time in the world to make pianos and I dont think they would not want to be represented in the UK, as Paulo's passion is to great.

But I still regard Steinway and sons Hamburg as the greatest piano maker, even though they are on a 3 day week at the moment.

KK

[joseph]

I

But I still regard Steinway and sons Hamburg as the greatest piano maker, even though they are on a 3 day week at the moment.

KK

I agree. I confess, I cave in completely, give me a Steinway over anything. I know they're really expensive but I want one. I might kill to get one. Haven't decided yet.....

[Model V]

I

But I still regard Steinway and sons Hamburg as the greatest piano maker, even though they are on a 3 day week at the moment.

KK

I agree. I confess, I cave in completely, give me a Steinway over anything. I know they're really expensive but I want one. I might kill to get one. Haven't decided yet.....

I'm working really hard on getting one for my school. I will not rest until that model B is there!

MV

[joseph]

Hang the B, I'll take a D.

[joe]

Hang the B, I'll take a D.

Why not split the difference and go for 2 "C"

[joseph]

yeah some Cs are beautiful

[athomik]

Yamaha have announced that they will close down and take over the operations of Bösendorfer Japan, not the factory in Austria. see http://www.global.yamaha.com/ir/report/ ... 90731b.pdf

[joseph]

I was at Boesendorfer in Vienna on Wednesday practising. I had a chat with some people there about the situation . . . . .

[Kemble King]

well what did they say Joseph?

[joseph]

They said that they were shocked and surprised when Yamaha closed Kemble, and that the agreement was to keep a presence in Vienna for 5 years. They are already 1 and a half years into this period and after that it may be that Yamaha close it down, or just sell their own pianos on the Bosendorfer site. They are desperately hoping that Boesendorfer is going to continue as a Viennese piano building firm, but in business you just never know'

So in other words, Boesendorfer are crapping themselves.

[Jazzer]

This really is very sad.