Help needed please!

maxheadroom · Post by **maxheadroom** » 08 Jul 2009, 01:14

Hi all. Newbie here.........did I hear groans of 'oh no, not another one'???

Any way, I'm looking to purchase a piano - obviously! - after not owning one for about three years due to unforseen divorce lawyers etc. Previously had a U3 which I loved to bits even though I was only a beginner and had only been learning for about two years. Been playing guitars n things for a number of years so do know what sounds right/plays well etc. Now living in a much smaller house so I feel/think a U3 is no longer an option due to size - physical and sound wise so I'm looking at something along the lines of Kemble, Chappell, possibly a smaller Yam. Problem is I'm now more than a little confused, especially about the Kembles - Oxfrod/Cambridge 11 and 12, Contemporay etc so can anyone help me out with the difference between these models other than the actual age? What would be a good Yamaha alternative to a U1 or U3 and what's the view on Chappells and Bentleys etc? I've got a budget of around £2500 max so looking at secondhand but if absolutely necessary can go above this if buying new was the ultimate recommendation from those in the know. Test driven a couple so far including Petrof's - didn't like to be honest and some cheap n cheerful/nasties. Might have the chance to but a Kemble Oxford 11 in superb condition for around £1700, (Beech of all things), but it's a bit of a hike away from where I live - 3 or 4 hours drive - and I didn't want to go only to be majorally disappointed. Piano shops/dealers are a bit thin on the ground locally and I've not yet seen/played anything I liked enough to want to but apart from a Kemble that, sadly, had a number of seriously sticking keys - is this a common problem?
Anyway folks, any help/suggestions would be gratefully recieved and apprciated.
Many Thanks

markymark · Post by **markymark** » 08 Jul 2009, 11:36

The problem is that you are basically downgrading your instrument. The taller U3 has a beautiful tone and dynamic bass but those little Kembles or even Yamahas to an extent can be very trebly or tinny - very inferior to the U3.

Would adjusting the hammer action or voicing it down not be a consideration?

You could also consider using some kind of insulation/padding in between the back of the piano and the wall it is against. This will close down some of the sound.

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 08 Jul 2009, 14:04

As markymark as pointed out you are downgrading so most will be a disappointment in the Bass

Bentley well No unless it a 1980-90 119 back with a Langer action they were the The Berlin, The Salisbury, The Esher, The London, The Belgrave and the The Chelsea all the same back just different cases, but not close to a U3

Chappell they were upto the year 2000 a Kemble in drag, unless its a pre 1950 reconditioned 121 back but there are issues with the bass bridge on older ones but if done well can be nice

Kemble Oxfrod/Cambridge 11 and 12, Contemporary again its all in the back the family rage have a small string length than the Contemporary range of the same model go for a boxy case acts like a boom box and makes the bass sound better. but not close to a U1

The Kemble CT121 Contemporary is closer to your old U3 as is the Yamaha P121 or the U1N which are make in the UK for Yamaha and some shops as sell them off very cheep

There are some very nice K10 knights out there and if in good nick they will outshine the U1 treble and mid rage but not the bass unless its a bad bass on the U1 which can be the norm on the imports also Knights bass can go tuby with hard playing.

The price you have in mind will restrict you on new ones they will be manly entry level around the 112 114 back your money will get a batter piano in the second hand market but let a tuner look at it first unless you go for some of the odd far east makes, you can get a bigger back so a nicer bass they will need a lot of prep work the downside is when you come to sell a lot of dealers will give you next to nothing for them take note of the serial number on any piano you buy

Barrie,

maxheadroom · Post by **maxheadroom** » 08 Jul 2009, 19:24

Hi guys and many Thanks for the answers so far!

What are your opinions on a 1994 Bentley/Welmar with Langer action, asking price £2450 on the dreaded ebay? Would it be a better bet than a lower priced U3? I know it's all subjective at the end of the day but I'm limited to the amount of time I can be driving up and down the country 'test driving' pianos and I'm already running the risk of spending more time looking than I'll ever spend playing and so any feedback/info would, again, be greatly appreciated.

Best Regards to all.

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 08 Jul 2009, 21:44

The Bentley brand moved to Welmar in 1993 so the quality should have gone up but some of the first one were not so good that price seems to a bit high for a private sale

Have you looked on the UK Piano Page pianos for sale by General Public and the trade there are U1 on there and some knights under 2000 you need to get a tuner to look at them

Barrie

Post by **vernon** » 08 Jul 2009, 22:22

I would try to stretch to a new Kawai aroun £3kl as second hand is a minefield if you do not have a good tech in tow

markymark · Post by **markymark** » 08 Jul 2009, 23:51

Some of the smaller Kawais vernon mentions do stand out in the 114-116cm range.

I remember trying one a while before I went for my P121 and was almost bent on buying a Kawai.

Peter Smith Pianos · Post by **Peter Smith Pianos** » 09 Jul 2009, 12:07

Would steer clear of ebay,would agree with vernon Kawai new at £3,149 is best value new piano in that price range,used Yamaha market full of "grey imports"better to go to established dealer.Bentley prices seem expensive,should be able to get better at that budget.

maxheadroom · Post by **maxheadroom** » 09 Jul 2009, 19:08

Once again 'Hi Guys' and Thanks for the input and feedback. Just to clarify the Bentley/Welmar is from, I believe, a reputable dealer in London and is in unplayed condition except for some fading to the case - any further thoughts on this verses a U1 or U3?

Interested to hear your views on the Kawai as it's not really one I've considered to be honest so what's the view on a Kawai BS-2A for around 2K? as a fairly localish dealer has one on offer which I may get to have a look at at the weekend.Which models should I consider if buying new?

As I said I know it's all very subjective and at the end of the day it's a matter of choice but I'm a bit limited in knowledge and I'm simply trying to narrow the choices down a little without chasing makes/models that I'm likely to be disappointed in.

Your in anticipation - well actually Cheshire, but I'm sure you get my drift!!

Post by **vernon** » 09 Jul 2009, 20:40

What is a Kawai BS 2A?

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 09 Jul 2009, 22:01

maxheadroom wrote:Once again 'Hi Guys' and Thanks for the input and feedback. Just to clarify the Bentley/Welmar is from, I believe, a reputable dealer in London and is in unplayed condition except for some fading to the case - any further thoughts on this verses a U1 or U3?

No matter how good the Bentley is the same age U1 will blow it out of the water all round they are just not the same size OK a B1 - 2 and a 112 Bentley is a better comparison or a P116 and a Bentley 116

Barrie,

maxheadroom · Post by **maxheadroom** » 09 Jul 2009, 23:03

Cheers guys. Can't tell you anymore about the Kawai, all it says is it's 'Kawai BS-2A'. General consensus seems to be Yamaha U1 or U3 if I'm not mistaken? Anything in particular to watch out for?
Regards to you all!

:)

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 10 Jul 2009, 08:12

maxheadroom wrote:Cheers guys. Can't tell you anymore about the Kawai, all it says is it's 'Kawai BS-2A'. General consensus seems to be Yamaha U1 or U3 if I'm not mistaken? Anything in particular to watch out for?
Regards to you all! :)

Pick the one you like, make note of it then pay a tuner to look at it. You then have two comeback the shop and the tuner if a problem arises

Barrie,

Peter Smith Pianos · Post by **Peter Smith Pianos** » 10 Jul 2009, 09:13

Would be interesting to know the price of used Kawai and the age,the older ones tend to have bass string problems when tuning.

maxheadroom · Post by **maxheadroom** » 10 Jul 2009, 17:28

Hi there, for info - the Kawai is a 1991, asking price £2200 - any good?
Thanks again!

maxheadroom · Post by **maxheadroom** » 13 Jul 2009, 17:57

Ok folks, here we go again!
Test drove a number of U3's at the weekend and a U1 along with two Kawai's, (which I just didn't like - personally found the action on these too 'light' and didn't particularly like the tone of either of them). Of the six Yams I played, and bearing in mind I use the term 'played' very loosely!, I narrowed it down to a choice between two U3's as, again, I didn't really like the action on the U1. One of the U3's was a very late 70's and t'other an early 80's and out of the two I simply prefered the 'feel' of the one from the 70's. So far so good!

However, and it's a big 'however'! Given the prices, £2700 for the 70's one, £2900 for the later one, (dealer prices and I know he has to make his money so I've NO quibble with the guy at all - excellent service and very, very helpful), it's got me thinking is this the best way to go for the money?

Maybe some of you would like to chip in with your views on the following thoughts/ponderables - all views and thoughts gratefully recieved!

I'm no 'pianist' for a start and have no real aspirations of being so, however I DO know what sounds good/plays well and don't really want to be looking to upgrade in five years time to something 'better' but equally don't want to splash out on something that will always be way, way above anything I might be capable of playing, reasonably, well. So, with those thoughts in mind do I - wait and stick to something within a budget of say £1500.00 £2000.00 and perhaps test a couple of private sale U3's? Bite the bullet and purchase from a dealer with the extra cost involved but with a good guarantee and after sales service? Or, perhaps, look at spending more money - which I can do if needed - and go the whole nine yards and buy 'new' and bearing that in mind what are your thoughts on a Kemble Conservatoire for £4200.00 or a Ymaaha P114 SG FOR £4000.00 or Yamaha P114T FOR £2500.00?

As ever, Thank you all for your input/s!

ATG · Post by **ATG** » 13 Jul 2009, 21:24

Well having had ours for nearly a year now I would say go for the Conservatoire while you can still get one. Beautiful sound and action, and no hinge along the top lid to make vases wobble (my wife said to put in that last bit).

ATG

Peter Smith Pianos · Post by **Peter Smith Pianos** » 14 Jul 2009, 12:14

Yamaha and Kemble very similar in tone unless properly prepped,and model mentioned not in same league as a new Japanese U3 or U1.The Kawai K2 and K3 are softer more mellow in character and not as expensive as the previous brands and much better than the older used Kawais,its pays to shop around deals to be had,pay the extra and buy from dealer,the ones on ebay must be desperate.

Peter Smith@PSPianos · Post by **Peter Smith@PSPianos** » 23 Jul 2009, 01:04

Hi guys,

No matter what you decide...I would strongly advise you to sit and play any piano that you are considering....hence Don't buy on-line ! You have got to 'try- before- you -buy'

Buy from as local a dealer as possible .....just in-case you have to call on them for after sales support i.e. tuning etc.. ( no matter if it's new or used )

Second-hand is alway going to give you the best value-for -money. It is well worth doing your research and possibly waiting for the right piano to turn up. If you have a good relationship with a local dealer - he can do the leg work, find a piano that suits your requirements and guarantee what he sells. Too many customers rush-in and buy the first thing they see.

You have particular requirments..speak to the dealer and he should be delighted to help. Their are plently of great 'second hand' bargins out there, especially in these economic times !

Why buy a new piano when a second hand piano is much better ...value...better made. Could even be a proper British piano !

Good luck !

joseph · Post by **joseph** » 23 Jul 2009, 08:21

Peter Smith@PSPianos wrote:
Why buy a new piano when a second hand piano is much better ...value...better made. Could even be a proper British piano !

Good luck !

In my experience, as a player, not a technician or salesperson, when I've tried two pianos of the same model, one is new and one is second hand, I have preferred the new one as a general rule.

Yes I agree that there are perhaps some exceptions to this but then that is down to the prep work done on each piano. Also if the second hand piano has been rebuilt with a new plank, action parts and sometimes a new soundboard then yes, perhaps it could be better - or more accurately- you may prefer it. However, these pianos are new on the inside anyway....

If you buy a high quality new piano, such as a Yamaha U1, P121, Kawai K3 or K6 or whatever, there is no reason why a second hand piano should be superior.

Peter Smith Pianos · Post by **Peter Smith Pianos** » 23 Jul 2009, 15:18

joseph wrote:
Peter Smith@PSPianos wrote:
Why buy a new piano when a second hand piano is much better ...value...better made. Could even be a proper British piano !

Good luck !

In my experience, as a player, not a technician or salesperson, when I've tried two pianos of the same model, one is new and one is second hand, I have preferred the new one as a general rule.

Yes I agree that there are perhaps some exceptions to this but then that is down to the prep work done on each piano. Also if the second hand piano has been rebuilt with a new plank, action parts and sometimes a new soundboard then yes, perhaps it could be better - or more accurately- you may prefer it. However, these pianos are new on the inside anyway....

If you buy a high quality new piano, such as a Yamaha U1, P121, Kawai K3 or K6 or whatever, there is no reason why a second hand piano should be superior.

Previous poster is not bona-fide dealer on any of the quality pianos available at this time,and has a need to try and promote used pianos,unlike ourselves who have access to all brands of quality new pianos and also do a roaring trade in quality used upright and grand pianos.

Peter Smith@PSPianos · Post by **Peter Smith@PSPianos** » 23 Jul 2009, 15:49

Hi,

I read with amusement...

Previous poster is not bona-fide dealer on any of the quality pianos available at this time,and has a need to try and promote used pianos,unlike ourselves who have access to all brands of quality new pianos and also do a roaring trade in quality used upright and grand pianos.

Sour grapes !

Ask the previous poster what experince has he had in the piano industry ? On who's authority is he able to talk about pianos ?

He may have obtained a piano business by--- his Mummy giving him a job, but that doesn't mean that he has the technical know how when it comes to pianos.

I was offered the Yamaha dealership approx 8 - 10 yrs ago. I turned them down.

I work everyday with pianos. I see and hear of the horrors that go on.

Thanks

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 23 Jul 2009, 16:32

I'm confused; are Peter Smith Pianos and PS Pianos 2 different entities then?
My twopennorth; I've found wonderful new pianos and wonderful second-hand. Try before you buy and NEVER buy in a hurry.

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 23 Jul 2009, 16:37

Peter Smith Pianos and Peter Smith@PSPianos Now children play nice... this is not the place for a family war.

Barrie,

joseph · Post by **joseph** » 23 Jul 2009, 17:16

Peter Smith and PS are two different firms, although from what I can gather, they might have spawned from the same seed? I think that the vitriolics should be kept off the board too.

Peter Smith@PSPianos · Post by **Peter Smith@PSPianos** » 23 Jul 2009, 17:20

Hi ,

Yes , you got it.

Names are similar though....not my fault !

My business is P.S. Pianos, Canal Street Paisley

I worked with my father for many years until he passed away. His business was called ' P.Smith & Son '

Somehow, the people who now run my fathers business have seemed to evolved into this collection of names..including Peter smith pianos....which to me, isn't their trading name.

I should also point out that these ' others ' are my ' brothers and mother ' who are responsible for the other company, I think !

Massive difference in the two operations.

Though, I should point out that when I bought my 'Bigger' shop a few years ago, they moved into my old shop which is 25yards from my new shop! - --Even I'm confused !

And yes, they now chase my customers up and down the street daily, oh and continually walk past my front window and door...oh and yes, they stop and stare in to see who they are missing out on.

Here's a recent funny one... David Rushworth was doing his round last month and because I sell some of the Intermusic range he calls at my shop. So it's just turned 4pm and he arrives in his big car and parks mid-way between the shop and he proceeds into my shop. In the time it took him to walk in, say hello, there was one of the ' others ' standing outside my shop, in full view, staring in, wondering ? It was so obvooius that David asked who it was.... We just accept it as being normal now. The ' other ' then proceeded to walk past my door a further 3 occassions trying to see what was going on. After a good blether and a cup of tea, an hour and a half later I wished David a safe journey etc.. It was now after 5:30 pm and the ' others ' were still hanging around, just in case it was a customer.

If it was, then the usual happens. They spot a car parked that they think may belong to the customer. And they put leaflets on the windows. I will sometimes remove them with the customers permission. ( lately though, I cannot be bothered !) They may however, if unable to spot the customers car, pursue then down the street and into the public car park which is 3 - 4 mins away, and then approach the customer there. They will either follow the customer on foot or drive round and wait. They have even had one of the ' others ' go by bicycle.

My van has been attacked by nails under the tyres. A solution has been thrown on the paint work. I cannot attribute this to the ' others' as evidence is essential.

My wife was almost run off the road in her car by one of them.

I have been attacked in the street. Attacked in my shop twice. Attacked outside a customers home. I've got the stiches to show for these visits. The list goes on and on.

But still I go on.

I should thank my friends within the trade for their support over the years.

I haven't made a public show of all this, because I just get on with it. Channel 4 even phoned once, after the story had reached the papers, to ask if they could do a fly-on-the-wall documentary.

So yes, were two different, completely different companies.

Now you regret asking the question. You onlly wanted a yes or no answer.

If anyone can offer suggestion, or if they know of, or had to put up with a similar situation, I would love to hear. I could maybe offer some advice from experince.

Thanks

Peter Smith Pianos · Post by **Peter Smith Pianos** » 23 Jul 2009, 19:35

This a piano forum where topics of piano related business are discussed,argued and posters are free within reason to agree or disagree with the others point of views,not the place to attack the intergity of established well respected piano dealers whoever they may be.Hopefully the moderator will act to protect the dignity of the the forum members.As for the content no response will leave that to the black cloth brigade with the funny wigs.

Post by **vernon** » 23 Jul 2009, 21:14

As Moderator my task is to moderate--not either to judge nor censor.
Coming from the West Coast of Scotland I am familiar with long lasting blood feuds and if the Smith Clan of Paisley want to continue them here it is fine with me as long as the language etc is moderate and no blood is shed.
It is interesting ( to the Scottish dealers) to know the intricate details of the above mentioned Clan, but I am sure quite boring in Middle England.

Kemble King · Post by **Kemble King** » 23 Jul 2009, 21:45

I thought I was obsessed with my local competition, but this is "pure galous man"!!

Post by **vernon** » 23 Jul 2009, 21:49

KK
Ca canny ma loon. Leave this to the grown ups

NewAge · Post by **NewAge** » 23 Jul 2009, 22:03

With apologies to the OP, I am unable to make any constructive criticism to the topic in hand as I'm not familiar with the Kemble range, or Chappell/Bentley.
However regarding the off-topic diversion, Inspector NewAge when next in the vicinity plans to pay a visit to the PS clan piano shops for eye-opening comparison purposes, after which a report will be written up.

Like the restaurant ‘red-book’ guide inspectors, the visit will be unannounced, and funny accent notwithstanding, my presence will not be a dead giveaway as I do not sport either a Poirot or a Clouseau moustache. Any prior PM’s from either party will be disregarded.
Incidently the dealer I bought my piano from, offered potential clients a hot beverage.
For the record, I take black coffee with one sugar, but any other stronger 'local' brew will be welcomed, and taken into consideration on the final score-card.
A bientôt.

Peter Smith Pianos · Post by **Peter Smith Pianos** » 24 Jul 2009, 14:43

You are more than welcome our main showrooms are situated at "Piano Warehouse" 60 Back Sneddon St Paisley PA3 2BY open 7 days,our feeder shop is 9 Canal St Paisley is not alway occupied and only stocks a small range of acoustic and digitals pianos.Hot coffee and tea available,and a balanced selection of new and used pianos to suit all budgets and levels of ability.see you soon!.

Peter Smith@PSPianos · Post by **Peter Smith@PSPianos** » 25 Jul 2009, 11:23

Hi New Age,

I look forward to your visit...

I prefer customers that are straight to the point and ask ' for a coffee '.

It's always good to have someone in that know a thing or two about pianos.

I'll leave this space clear for my advert....

.....

Have a safe journey.

Peter Smith

hammerhappy · Post by **hammerhappy** » 26 Jul 2009, 01:42

Most interested to stumble upon this little topic - drawn me out of lurking finally! First, before I continue on the little tangent this thread has taken, I hope the OP finds something that suits them (sounds like you really want a U3 anyway

)

Anyway, to PS Pianos v Peter Smith Pianos:

I've visited both shops, and there is definitely a difference between the two. In one I was offered a cup of tea and a biccie by a guy who looked liked he'd just been working on a piano almost as soon as entering, in the other I felt like I'd walked into a church during mass and made a noise.

I can confirm that guerilla "marketing" techniques are employed by the latter shop - I came out of the former to find a leaflet pinned under my windscreen. Not hugely likely to give someone who's messed with my car a few grand, but I certainly shan't give them any more marketing 'tips' (or, indeed, obvious pointers) without being paid for my common sense.

New Age, if you do plan to visit both, I'd suggest you wear a suit to Peter Smith Pianos to be taken seriously by the rather gruff man (who seems always to be in a stiff suit) who judged my friend and I rather harshly, presumably as we were wearing jeans - a mistake on his part, clearly, since we were both happy to part with a decent amount of cash for pianos.

Neither are making themselves look good in this little spat, but I know who I'd give my money to any day. It's not the guy in the suit.

NewAge · Post by **NewAge** » 26 Jul 2009, 07:04

hammerhappy wrote:
New Age, if you do plan to visit both, I'd suggest you wear a suit to Peter Smith Pianos to be taken seriously by the rather gruff man (who seems always to be in a stiff suit) who judged my friend and I rather harshly, presumably as we were wearing jeans - a mistake on his part, clearly, since we were both happy to part with a decent amount of cash for pianos.

What a dilemma. This now has me wondering whether I should wear a suit to the Peter Smith Piano shop, or to the piano shop of Peter Smith. Or jeans to either.

Pondering this predicament, I think I should perhaps play safe and wear a kilt, which may qualify me for an additional 0.5% discount, and get my OH to wear a freshly pressed pair of lederhosen - although she always complains they play hell with her stilettos, and that the drop-front style flap always causes inner thigh rash and jock itch - perhaps very appropriate considering our planned destination.
Something tells me I have an interesting trip in store - especially if either establishment has a high concealed front step!

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 26 Jul 2009, 11:07

Blimey!

This is the exact kind of shoite which has persuaded me to give the forum a wide berth for a while!!

It's like something from a Marty Feldman sketch!

PGx

Be seeing you!!

Peter Smith Pianos · Post by **Peter Smith Pianos** » 26 Jul 2009, 12:50

PianoGuy wrote:Blimey!

This is the exact kind of shoite which has persuaded me to give the forum a wide berth for a while!!

It's like something from a Marty Feldman sketch!

PGx

Be seeing you!!

Think we be joining you,differences of opinions regarding makes,advice,discounters,and piano related topics fine,"business slander" that a whole different playing field on a public forum,"personal slander"thats par for the course.Since the moderators feel the content is permissable,we will post the outcome of the allegations presented here asap.

Kemble King · Post by **Kemble King** » 28 Jul 2009, 21:35

Hello PG, good to see you have made a return to the Forum.

Regards

KK

Post by **vernon** » 28 Jul 2009, 22:22

PG I'm glad too you have made a return to the forum
bw
Vernon

sussexpianos · Post by **sussexpianos** » 28 Jul 2009, 22:54

Im a bit confused, is there two shops with the same name? Both near to each other?
ps, hi PG

NewAge · Post by **NewAge** » 29 Jul 2009, 13:03

vernon wrote:PG I'm glad too you have made a return to the forum
bw
Vernon

I’m glad too that Piano Guy has put in a brief re-appearance. Proof that you still check-in on the forum.
If my posts have offended in the past I apologize, and will endeavor to stay strictly on-topic.
So welcome back PG, and look forward to your future regular posts.

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 01 Aug 2009, 13:38

NewAge wrote:
vernon wrote:PG I'm glad too you have made a return to the forum
bw
Vernon
I’m glad too that Piano Guy has put in a brief re-appearance. Proof that you still check-in on the forum.
If my posts have offended in the past I apologize, and will endeavor to stay strictly on-topic.
So welcome back PG, and look forward to your future regular posts.

No offence taken or indeed noticed.

Yes I still lurk.

shabzy · Post by **shabzy** » 27 Aug 2011, 14:22

interesting