Problems with new Bechstein Millenium 116

[myg]

Hello!

I have obtained a new new Bechstein Millenium 116 in last winter.
When I press key (sharp or natural) only once - hammer strikes twice!
Especially when I play piano (p, pp) whithout dynamic.
When I play dynamic forte - everything is OK.

The garantee tuner said me that this is a normal situation because this Bechstein model
has a repitition mechanism. He only turned capstan-screws but the problem is unresolved..
I still suffer from this twice strokes.

Thank you for any help!

Yuriy

[Barrie Heaton]

Hello!

I have obtained a new new Bechstein Millenium 116 in last winter.
When I press key (sharp or natural) only once - hammer strikes twice!
Especially when I play piano (p, pp) whithout dynamic.
When I play dynamic forte - everything is OK.

The depth of touch hammer ratio is wrong
The Jack slap rail is too close,
The dampers are lifting too high and coming into contact with the slap rail

The above is the most common for your problem and should be rectified by the shop. Its just poor set up in the first place.

The garantee tuner said me that this is a normal situation because this Bechstein model
has a repitition mechanism. He only turned capstan-screws but the problem is unresolved..
I still suffer from this twice strokes.

Yuriy

the Tuner is taking rubbish. call the shop and ask them to send out someone who can regulate and knows what they are taking about and doing

Barrie,

[myg]

Thank you very much for the answer , Barrie!
You give a hope to me.

I have found recently - when I press a key, the end of jack does not have a time
to return back to butt cushion (hammernusspolster).
When the hammer goes back after a stroke, the hummer-butt strikes against the end of jack, and hammer plays sound again.
What can you say about it?
I can add to this that I have this problem only in the most frequently used central 3 octaves and not all keys suffered.
There is no problems in discants, for a example...

The depth of touch hammer ratio is wrong

Please, can you explain this a little simpler? - I am not English and piano tuner...

The dampers are lifting too high and coming into contact with the slap rail

Do you mean there - the the jack slap rail?

Thank you very much!
With your answers I will be more armed to tolk with the shop.
Yuriy

[chrisvenables]

[/quote]

Barrie said:
The above is the most common for your problem and should be rectified by the shop. Its just poor set up in the first place.

[/quote]


Agreed, it may be poor set up in the first place, or it may be the piano settling in and adjusting. After spending a winter of central heating and low humidity, now the humidity level rises, action parts absorb the humidity and swell causing regulation problems - particularly in a new piano which is still settling in.

I think the dealer-tuner's excuse about the action problems was ridiculous.

MYG - maybe you should invest in a humidity gauge to monitor humidity levels in the piano room - 45-65% is about the min/max for Europe - check your handbook for Bechstein's recommendations in your part of the world.

[joe]

Fail to understand the piano playing publics fascination with Bechstein pianos,have played many at various trade events and quite frankly they are awful,toneless,action irregularities and not worth the money.It must be snobbery of people thinking they are buying a slice of history,and complaints are becoming common place on this forum,get dealer to send a Bechstein approved tech if there is such a person to regulate the piano,surely at the price they sell for they should be able to supply top-class techs to deal with the basics.

[NewAge]

Fail to understand the piano playing publics fascination with Bechstein pianos,have played many at various trade events and quite frankly they are awful,toneless,action irregularities and not worth the money.It must be snobbery of people thinking they are buying a slice of history,and complaints are becoming common place on this forum,get dealer to send a Bechstein approved tech if there is such a person to regulate the piano,surely at the price they sell for they should be able to supply top-class techs to deal with the basics.

......."they are awful,toneless". That Joe, is a very sweeping generalization, which I'm sure many satisfied owners would disagree with.
When shopping for my piano, I played so many different makes and models, and I well recall two particular Bechsteins - a classic 118 and 124 which I particularly liked - especially the tone. As it happened I found another make that I knew immediately was for me. So not being a Bechstein owner I have no axe to grind, but at least wanted to put forward another view.
It would be interesting to hear from any totally satisfied owners of newish Bechsteins, but the nature of this forum appears to attract piano owners with problems rather than the contrary.

[myg]

joe!

What piano you have at your home?

I did not want to buy the slice of history.
I have obtained the piano and spent the last money.

You are right that contemporary Bechstein is not the same as Bechstein before 1945.
But I have tried approx. 50 new Yamaha, Petrof and Schimmel pianos before
to buy Bechstein. All of them (new pianos) had the same problems with action.

In all shops tuners said me that these are the regulation question.
I have bought piano in winter (we have cold winters here and dry air inside houses).

I did not like Yamaha and Schimmel because of flat artifical sound.
Many Petrof pianos that I have played had a body resonance during playing!
Also Petrof pianos are very various in sound from instrument to instrument - it
points to unstable quality.

I think German instruments are more sensitive and therefore they need more skilled tuner.

Yury

[joe]

What heating system does your home have?,if its hot air convection system under floorboards piano will never settle.I was under the impression that a Petrof 116 and Bechstein 116 are the same instrument apart from cabinet design,please correct me if am wrong.Have a 1933 burr walnut Steinway Model A which looks like new, all orginal.

[myg]

We have a central water heating system. I know about the danger of air convection system under floorboards.
I did not understand your question about Petrof. How it is connected with my problem?
Petrof 116 http://www.petrof.cz/upright-piano-petrof-p-116-e1.html
is a Czech instrument that totally assembled in Czech republic and it is twice cheaper Bechstein Millenium that is assembled
in Germany. I have played Petrof 116, it is a low quality instrument with a acute sound.

[Barrie Heaton]

Thank you very much for the answer , Barrie!
You give a hope to me.

I have found recently - when I press a key, the end of jack does not have a time
to return back to butt cushion (hammernusspolster).
When the hammer goes back after a stroke, the hummer-butt strikes against the end of jack, and hammer plays sound again.
What can you say about it?

Was this after the tuner had turned the capstans up if he raised the hammers off the rest then the jack will find it difficult to return.

I can add to this that I have this problem only in the most frequently used central 3 octaves and not all keys suffered.

is this just the jack problem or the double striking if it the double striking it may be that the felts on the balance have compressed and also dyed out making the depth of touch too shallow if it is 20mins work to put right

The depth of touch hammer ratio is wrong

Please, can you explain this a little simpler? - I am not English and piano tuner...

is the depth of touch 9.5mm or less (that is the amount the key goes down )

The dampers are lifting too high and coming into contact with the slap rail

Do you mean there - the the jack slap rail?

No damper slap rail its quite complex to explain and if it is that, it can be a few factors but its manly a factory set up problem, but should have been spotted by the shop. If it is this (unlikely) its about 15min to 4 hours depeding on the tech and the problem

Barrie,

[myg]

Barrie,

Thank you very much for the answers. Shop techs answered me by phone that the double striking can be caused by my style, manner of playing.

They said me : "You can provoke double striking by your style of play. Another person with another style of playing maybe play without the the double striking".

Was they right? But when I play another instrument I cannot feel double-striking at all.

[Barrie Heaton]

Barrie,

Thank you very much for the answers. Shop techs answered me by phone that the double striking can be caused by my style, manner of playing.

They said me : "You can provoke double striking by your style of play. Another person with another style of playing maybe play without the the double striking".

Was they right? But when I play another instrument I cannot feel double-striking at all.

utter rubbish you would have to have a very strange way of playing if the piano was set up correct and you have answered your own question as you don't get this on other pianos, They are just trying to get out of fixing the problem do you live a long way from the shop.

You did not answer any of my questions !

Barrie,

[joe]

We have a central water heating system. I know about the danger of air convection system under floorboards.
I did not understand your question about Petrof. How it is connected with my problem?
Petrof 116 http://www.petrof.cz/upright-piano-petrof-p-116-e1.html
is a Czech instrument that totally assembled in Czech republic and it is twice cheaper Bechstein Millenium that is assembled
in Germany. I have played Petrof 116, it is a low quality instrument with a acute sound.

I was of the understanding that Petrof made the pianos for Bechstein,and they are now being made by Samick Instruments Korea under the "Bechstein-Samick Allianance and they are only showroom prepared in Germany,but not 100% built there.

[crispin]

Dear Myg

Where are you located? Are you in the UK? Did you try the piano before you bought it?

Certainly you are being led a dance with this story that the double strike in normal or due to your playing technique. Keep pushing - the dealer should sort out these problems without too much pressing - but it is a bit alarming how they have not sorted this problem yet.

Even though many parts of the piano could be sourced in the far east - I suspect that Bechstein could not label them as 'made in Germany' if they only had the last stages of prep made in Germany. Re the sound and the touch - our Bechstein Academy continues to please us greatly - especially when compared to others - our problem is tuning instability that is an ongoing unresolved problem.

Please keep us informed on the outcome of your problem.

[chrisvenables]

Crispin: Didn't the dealer send a tech a few weeks ago to check the problem - didn't he identify the cause?

[crispin]

Indeed the tuner came from the dealer... and he retuned the piano... which had gone completely out of tune by the time he came. He says that it just newness.. and probably he is right.... however given that this is the 5th tuning during this first year I find the newness a bit excessive.

In addition: I have this rather accurate recording device so I can look at the state of the tuning before - and after visits by various tuners. In particular I can look at the unisons and look for beats (very simple to do). Unfortunately the tuner from the dealer gets a rather low score for his quality of tuning (our regular tuner gets a rather high score)... so I am uncertain what to make of his statements. Anyway - I have recontacted Bechstein re the story but I am certain that they will just say it is newness.... as I said this is still an ongoing story ... but fortunately the touch, action and tone of the piano is great when in tune - but unfortunately this in-tune moment is not long lasting. I am certain that life will improve with time and that the tuning will eventually stabilise ....

[NewAge]

Fail to understand the piano playing publics fascination with Bechstein pianos,have played many at various trade events and quite frankly they are awful,toneless,action irregularities and not worth the money.It must be snobbery of people thinking they are buying a slice of history,and complaints are becoming common place on this forum,get dealer to send a Bechstein approved tech if there is such a person to regulate the piano,surely at the price they sell for they should be able to supply top-class techs to deal with the basics.

I've just read the latest issue of French magazine 'Pianist', where Bechstein, Grotrian Steinweg, Bluthner, Schimmel, Sauter upright pianos are put to the test.
The panel of testers were waxing lyrical about the Bechstein - I believe a Classic 124, so some people still love 'em.

[myg]

You did not answer any of my questions !

Barrie,

Hello, Barrie!
If you remember my problem...
I have recorded a video of the action... how it works with double-striking...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7c3QRN33pH8

I have found recently that the double-striking in all cases appears during semi-pedal play (right pedal), and does not appear (99% cases) with a fully pressed right pedal or play without pedal at all (even on ppp-style play).

What can you say?

[Barrie Heaton]

You did not answer any of my questions !

Barrie,

Hello, Barrie!
If you remember my problem...
I have recorded a video of the action... how it works with double-striking...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7c3QRN33pH8

I have found recently that the double-striking in all cases appears during semi-pedal play (right pedal), and does not appear (99% cases) with a fully pressed right pedal or play without pedal at all (even on ppp-style play).

What can you say?

On the half pedalling if the tension of the damper spring is set too strong that can be a problem on ppp playing as the damper spoon is coming into play at the same time as checking is. However would have to see the piano to confirm


Barrie,

[NewAge]

On the half pedalling if the tension of the damper spring is set too string that can be a problem on ppp plying as the damper spoon is coming into play at the same time as checking is However would have to see the piano to confirm


Barrie,

Barry, the devil in me just loves your occasional non-intentional Unwinese. Keep ‘em coming. And that same little devil offers the following with all dewy respect, and not without tongue in cheekyness:-

On this thready, Barry the spell-checkeroler, was all responsible to realise the jobsworth of the Bechstein right damper desert spooner. However, does a really wonderful jobsworthy of the basic English twenty-fido until the punctuation of the semi-play pedalo comes into contact with the strings. Deep joy when delivering quotchety and quaver roundness on the quietly-softly middle peddler. But, be extremely careflow not to get tetley teafee or cofflio onto the keys because if a tilty elbow spilly forth, “Oh deario”, the black ivory flatties, or the white ebony fingerpokers will indeed be no sharper as a result of the natural hiccup.

Right. Think it’s time now for a lie-down, or to make a few suggestions to Raymanboy for his next eBay commercial.......

[Barrie Heaton]

On this thready, Barry the spell-checkeroler, was all responsible to realise the jobsworth of the Bechstein right damper desert spooner. However, does a really wonderful jobsworthy of the basic English twenty-fido until the punctuation of the semi-play pedalo comes into contact with the strings. Deep joy when delivering quotchety and quaver roundness on the quietly-softly middle peddler. But, be extremely careflow not to get tetley teafee or cofflio onto the keys because if a tilty elbow spilly forth, “Oh deario”, the black ivory flatties, or the white ebony fingerpokers will indeed be no sharper as a result of the natural hiccup.

Now that is good there was a carry on film with a character who spoke like that

Barrie

[NewAge]

Now that is good there was a carry on film with a character who spoke like that

Barrie

Yes, it was Stanley Unwin (hence Unwinese) in Carry On Regardless (1963). It was with him in mind that I based the above mini sketch. And thanks Barry for giving me the idea......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=323kQis2zbM

He never scripted his work, he spoke it naturally like a second language - on tap.
Died in 2002 in Daventry and is is buried in the churchyard at Long Buckby, His gravestone has the epitaph, "Reunitey in the heavenly-bode – Deep Joy".

[Barrie Heaton]

Yes, it was Stanley Unwin (hence Unwinese) in Carry On Regardless (1963). It was with him in mind that I based the above mini sketch. And thanks Barry for giving me the idea......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=323kQis2zbM

He never scripted his work, he spoke it naturally like a second language - on tap.
Died in 2002 in Daventry and is is buried in the churchyard at Long Buckby, His gravestone has the epitaph, "Reunitey in the heavenly-bode – Deep Joy".

There are a lot of young folk out there who are seeing films like Carry On Regardless for the first time and find them very funny

thanks for the link

Barrie,