Question from Holland: What to do with a JB Cramer

[mattmaxx]

Dear friends,

I am the happy owner of an old JB Cramer London piano. However we are refurbishing our house and wondering what to do with this piano that was bought by my parents in England somewhere in the seventies when we used to live in Horsham. It's been there as long as I remember so just trashing it seems a bit harsh to do. Therefore I am concidering restauration, but there are no real experts on this particular brand here in NL. I have found a verly good piano guy who will restaurate it for approx 3500 Euro's. It's quite some money and therefore I am trying to find out more about this piano. Can anyone help me out? I understand it's quite difficult to date a piano by it's serial numer (from other topics in this forum) but the number is: 29609. On the iron frame it has (apart from jb cramer london) the letters AD. I would be greatful with all information.


Kind regards,

Matthijs

[vernon]

the number suggests about 1900 but from the design of the pedals I would put it 30 years earlier.
Don't think I would spend money on it.

[mattmaxx]

Interesting. Thank you. The piano tuner told me that the cost of restoring would be about as much as buying a cheap chinese piano, and that he would prefer a restored version of this one above a chinese one... Does that make sense?

[Bill Kibby]

I'm afraid Vernon is way off with his estimate of 1870, and these pedals were in common use in London pianos before the 1914 war. The horned brass pedal feet which are now so familiar were being offered for sale by Newman by 1904, but are rarely seen in London pianos before 1910. The keyboard is supported by trusses, which were uncommon outside the period 1880-1920.

This piano could be 1900, or a little either side of that date. It is impossible to judge the instrument without being there to test it, but it would have little value here in the UK, and my advice is never to take on a piano on the basis of what it might be like when it has been restored.

Some of the fairly modern Chinese pianos I have seen are terrible, but I have no experience of the brand new ones.

[mattmaxx]

Thank you Bill. Useful information. Immediate value is however not really what I'm after. The question is, if it would be throwning money away to have the piano restored. According to the tuner it is in surprisingly good condition, with only original parts on it. His claim is that when I invest 3,5k in restoring the thing, it would be worth just about that afterwards. And it would be a good piano for the kids to learn to play on. (whilst buying a new piano would cost about the same)

cheers,

Matthijs

[Pianomate]

Get another technician / tuner to give you an estimate for the work, and ask their opinion.

Speaking from an antiques restorer's point of view, some of these earlier pianos if they were originally of a good quality are very nice and well worth restoring. However if it wasn't a top model in its day, it probably isn't worth doing.

Don't forget also the technician won't get much trade from you if you buy a new Chinese one as you say.

Is it overstrung and underdamped?

[joe]

Piano is around turn of the 19th century,is the piano of sentimental value to the family if so what restoration is going to be performed for £3.5k?,is it overstrung?,does it have a metal frame?,is it a tape -check action,why not take top panel off and send photo of internals,from my own point of view would only spend that sort of cash on Steinway,Bechstein or Bluthner upright.

[mattmaxx]

The piano has only sentimental value. I don't even play myself. (maybe something for my kids). The restoration seems quite thorough. (I don't know what everything is in english but it varies from transport to new felt on hammers and changing all mechanical stuff. (again sorry for not being able to translate the entire list of things). According to the tuner it should be as new. It does have a metal frame with the letters AD on it (and JB Cramer & Co. London)

I am still doubting whether or not to keep the thing. Seeing all your answers it's seems a bit like waste of money....

[Pianomate]

It looks like what we call a "cottage piano". They were made small and affordable - a budget model in its day. Straight strung and overdamped.

Basically think of it as an antique - a piece of musical history. Fully restored, don't expect it to sound like a modern upright. It will have an old fashioned sound and tone peculiar to itself, (which some people like). Personally I wouldn't spend that money on restoring it, but that's just me, and much depends on how much spare cash people have as to whether thay want such projects doing. If you do have it done, think of it in the same way as some people restore classic cars - You are doing it for the love of it only - you won't get high performance out of it when finished and you will probably end up spending far more on it than it will ever be worth. For that sort of money over here you could get a pretty good quality antique piano which has already been fully restored.

Looking at the internals, I don't think Vernon was too far off after all with his guess at the 1870s. Perhaps the casing has been "modernised" a bit at some stage.

If you aren't going to play it as such, why not just have the case tidied and have it made to work as is. Alternatively, your tuner may be interested in it for himself to fix up.

[joe]

Certianly not one for refurbishment, your £3.5k would be better spend on a decent new yamaha or kawai pianos,not a chinese piano at that budget,would never recon straight-strung with spring-loop action.

[mattmaxx]

Wow. What an information. Thank you guys. This is very useful. I will ask for a second opinion from another tuner. And then it all comes down to deciding about the sentimental value... It's always easier to decide on refurbishing a Steinway, i believe... Interesting to see that it's so hard to put a date on the piano...

[Bill Kibby]

They simply were not making pianos like this in the 1870s, this is more like 1898. That information is not a vague opinion, it is based on 46 years' experience, and our collection of over twelve thousand images. It is not a cottage piano in the proper and most common useage of the term, they usually have sticker actions, iron hitchplates, tapered hexagonal legs and trailing castors, and stopped being made suddenly around 1886. It is very much a typical London piano of about 1895-1910. I am offered pianos like this for nothing, I wouldn't buy it for a hundred pounds, or spend a hundred on restoring it, the tonal quality is limited by the age, wooden top bridge and vertical stringing, the damping will never be good, the pedals will be noisy. Having said that, many people have these in their front rooms, and are happy to use them until they need a major repair job. Never take on expense for a piano on the basis of what it might be like when it is restored, buy one that is working properly, and is an instrument you enjoy playing...

And get it checked over by a tuner-techician first.