top notes & yamaha C1

[terry70]

I have looked at a no of new pianos over the last 2.5 years, and eventually bought a C1. I have the folowing 2 topics;

a) top notes in general. In trying out many pianos I have found that the top 5-6 notes are generally v. poor. They are unmusical, and the action sound dominates.Tuners/salespersons have told me that either that this is normal, or that they can't hear anything wrong.
Opinions pls ?

b) yamaha C1: my piano has the above weakness. In addition it has at least 2 other problems:

b1: Sound of notes below the 'break' (around B below the C an octave under middle C); these are noticeably different to higher notes, and are less pleasing in sound. Again, this seems to show up in other pianos to a greater or lesser extent.

b2: several notes in the middle 3 octaves are unpleasant & significantly different to neighbouring notes.
Any comments appreciated.

[chrisvenables]

Hi Terry:

a. Many people comment on these top notes - one observation (with respect to you, and not necessarily your case!) is that as the human ear gets older it doesn't hear the high frequencies as clearly, so much so that eventually you hear only the 'thud' of the hammer hitting the string and no high frequency at all. (We've had quite a few elderly customers complain about this)

b.1. There's always a distinction in tonal quality at the break and generally it's more obvious on short string pianos. On a Yamaha C1, the B flat is the last note in the bass section which is pressing on the end of the bass bridge at a totally different point on the soundboard to where the B, first note in the main section, is pressing on the end of the main bridge, again in a totally different area of the soundboard. Short bass strings are wrapped in copper to add weight so they vibrate slower and unfortunately the thicker the string the less pure the sound. (eg You would need a thin steel string about 30 foot long on bottom A to produce a near perfect sound.) A degree of toning by your tech may make the transition less obvious.

b.2. This could just be signs that your piano needs tuning and or a little toning. Have your tuner fine tune it first then assess its tone balance. Any notes which you feel are overbright or too soft can then be toned accordingly. Again, you have 'break' points at notes 53/54 and 71/72, not as noticeable, but they're there, and the start of the capo bar at note 54 where people often complain of a metallic 'zing'. Toning can help alleviate these points.

[vernon]

d second all as experienced sense.
The top notes on most pianos are very poor a many customers ask if something can be done but the answer is generally "no."
When fitting hammers, we adjusted the actual blow point of the hammer to get the best "ring."
One can cast the hammer head nearer to or farther from the top bearing which can help.
Surprisingly, on many old straight strungs of no particular pedigree one often gets a beautiful ring up the A(if there is one.) How did they do that?
I shall ignore Chris Venables' observation that as you get old you can't hear properly!

[Barrie Heaton]

a) top notes in general. In trying out many pianos I have found that the top 5-6 notes are generally v. poor. They are unmusical, and the action sound dominates.Tuners/salespersons have told me that either that this is normal, or that they can't hear anything wrong.
Opinions pls ?

if you piano is only a few years old and your are hearing action noise above the sound of the top notes then Chris has a valid point about your hearing. However, if the hammers are cut deep then there will be a dull sound and the action will be heard over the strings. Your other concerns seem to all to fit in with the piano needing a good service plus pos hammers refaced and voicing


Barrie,

[pdossantos]

It seems to me that your piano just needs a bit of voicing, this will make the sound more even, it is normal for pianos to have that. Mine did, the tech fixed it in a few minutes.

The last 5 keys are always like that, I have tried many grand pianos over the last year and I always find that the last 5 are a bit brighter then the rest, even on Steinways, I would bother too much as they are not used so frequently. (not by be anyway)

Every piano has flaws, when pressing individual notes you can hear the break, when making music not so much.

Try to enjoy your C1, I have a GC1 and wish I had a C1

Kind regards,
patrick

[markymark]

I do kind of get the same effect on my P121 but I generally perceived this to be general trait of Yamahas to varying degrees and in many other brands for that matter.

[Barrie Heaton]

I do kind of get the same effect on my P121 but I generally perceived this to be general trait of Yamahas to varying degrees and in many other brands for that matter.

Some pianos do sound like a builder chiselling at bricks in the distance after a few years

Barrie,

[chrisvenables]

Every piano has flaws, when pressing individual notes you can hear the break, when making music not so much.

Well said Patrick!

Too many people become obsessed with analysing individual notes when they are never played like that in a piece of music. Every note sounds different. Sit back, relax, and enjoy the piano as it is meant to be played, a beautiful blend of notes and tones, not just one note at a time.

You can hear Patrick on his Yamaha GC1 (silent) on U tube - I don't have the address handy, but I'm sure Patrick will oblige shortly after reading this. He hasn't been playing for long, but his enthusiasm and feeling says it all. I believe he lives in Holland. A great enthusiast!

[terry70]

Thks for the replies to my queries about top notes in general, and also questions re Yamaha C1.

Top notes:
As some members have indicated, I too believe that this is a weak area on most pianos. Regarding 'old ears' (suggestion of Chris V.), I will think about that, tho I have my doubts, as the frequency difference between the good and poor high notes is only about 200 HZ. I will check this with younger listeners.

Lower 'break' notes and some poor notes in the middle register:
This piano is only 18 months old. All problems have been evident from the start & continue to be noticeable. Meanwhile the piano has been tuned many times. It has also been voiced/toned, which achieved only a short-term improvement. How long are voicing improvements meant to last ?

Sum up:
In my experience the C1 has some systemic weaknesses, as I have indicated in my first i/p. The range of these weaknesses may vary between individual pianos from barely noticeable to significant. ( It is fair to say, however, that the C1 has some positive points).
Any further comments appreciated.

[Barrie Heaton]

Lower 'break' notes and some poor notes in the middle register:
This piano is only 18 months old. All problems have been evident from the start & continue to be noticeable. Meanwhile the piano has been tuned many times. It has also been voiced/toned, which achieved only a short-term improvement. How long are voicing improvements meant to last ?

There is 2 types of voicing deep voicing that is done on the new hammers and service voicing that is done by the visiting tuner. If the deep voicing is done poorly in the first place then the service voicing tend not to last, bad deep voicing can have a effect on the sustain as well. However, (there is always one of them with pianos) if the piano gets a lot of use or very hard use then the intervals will be greater.

Sum up:
In my experience the C1 has some systemic weaknesses, as I have indicated in my first i/p. The range of these weaknesses may vary between individual pianos from barely noticeable to significant. ( It is fair to say, however, that the C1 has some positive points).
Any further comments appreciated.

Myself I think the new GB1M has a nicer top end than a lot of C1s the Bass still sucks on the GB1M

Barrie,

[chrisvenables]

I will think about that, tho I have my doubts, as the frequency difference between the good and poor high notes is only about 200 HZ. I will check this with younger listeners.

Lower 'break' notes and some poor notes in the middle register:
This piano is only 18 months old. All problems have been evident from the start & continue to be noticeable. Meanwhile the piano has been tuned many times. It has also been voiced/toned, which achieved only a short-term improvement. How long are voicing improvements meant to last ?

Sum up:
In my experience the C1 has some systemic weaknesses, as I have indicated in my first i/p. The range of these weaknesses may vary between individual pianos from barely noticeable to significant. ( It is fair to say, however, that the C1 has some positive points).
Any further comments appreciated.

Terry, the frequency difference in the top octave ranges from 2349 to 4186 (c to top c) - note for note increases of 200+ equals nearly 2000 for that top octave which is huge compared with the low/ mid ranges on the piano.

Regarding voicing, it should last you a couple of years at least, depending on how much and how hard you play.

The C1 is a great piano, if you're not happy, maybe try a different technician. I may know someone I could recommend depending on where you live - you're welcome to email me: chris@chrisvenables.co.uk if you wish, or try the tuner list on the forum.