Steinway model Z.. worth the trouble?

[tempogen]

so i don't have to saw the decaying part? it's what i was planning to do, right at the red line i drew .... then replace it with a new beam.

[Pianomate]

No need unless it has lost its structural integrity. Is the timber sound - can you push a small screwdriver into it?

You may find that more strings break as you try and tune them up. Perhaps wait until everything is back together and you start tuning before you order anything.

[tempogen]

Well, with the exception of the obvious gaps, the wood is reasonably firm. it just hurts my eyes to look at it.
ok here's a dumb question : i should unscrew the cast iron plate right? i mean, i can't possibly work on the sideboard with it still on. but i need to work on the strings as well, and they pass on the bridge, so i don't know if it's wise to just yank off the plate after unscrewing it, or work on the wires then the soundboard.....

[Barrie Heaton]

If you send ALL the bits of the broken string/s to Fletchers or Heckshers they will make an exact copy.

ref the other 2 pics.
I would rake out all the open joints and cracks, then blow out the dust. Then glue everything together in one go with Cascamite or similar if you have enough cramps and sash cramps.Do it in a logical order otherwise when it is dry you won't be able to go back and do one you missed
bwFinally shim any cracks(!) aand fill the larger holes with carefully shaped pieces of wood

On the beams at the bottom I would use plastic padding (car body filler). The sound board that's a different matter it may just be the ends if so then plastic padding , Ribs need to be inspected and the ends of the boards need to be well secured the the soundboard frame. Looking at the steels its a full restring

You need to sit back and decide if this project is viable so for You need
New heads and shanks
I would put on new butts as well
New damper felt and knowing the Z tales as well
Springs
Bottom sections burnished and re centred spoons polished
Keys rebushing
Keybed re felting
Set of Wrest pins
Set of Bass Strings
Set of steels
Lots of case work
and loads of time

There is about 80 to 100 hours work there and that is for someone who knows what they are doing and set up to do it

don't take out the frame with out making lots of measurements and the tension need to be dropped in the back

Barrie,

[tempogen]

ok so what i did so far is the following :

Repaired the wippens as such : removed rust from the wires, and polished - well tried to - and oiled with a light oil -please don't worry pianomate- to prevent future rust.. i hope. replaced the backcheck felts, and jack springs when necessary. Replaced all bridle straps.
The butts : replaced all the springs, and flange cords. replaced felts when necessary. replaced broken shanks. replaced center pins when necessary. in my opinion the butts are fine. the damper wires were cleaned as well and felts replaced.the main action rail was cleaned, sanded, and painted. the handles were sanded and painted as well. the spring rail and the backcheck rails were replaced. the casing was disassembled to be seen by a cabinet maker.
what i have :

All the keybed felts and punches.
Hammer rail cloth.
support from a wonderful forum

What i need to do :

assemble the action - waiting for the hammers
Polish the keys and assemble the keybed
repair the soundboard
repair the strings/replace
clean and paint the plate.
Assemble the piano after the casing and the rest is done.
regulate the action
tune

what i lack :

Hammers
Strings
Sufficient knowledge
Funds

does that sound about right?

[vernon]

Personnally I consider it most unwise to unscrew any of the frame(plate) screws as I fear the frame may crack- don't know what others think.
On the bottom you show,if there is enough meat left, I would neatly cut off the decayed ends and fit a nice batten as an edging

[Pianomate]

When you come to polish the keys, you need to make sure you don't round the edges off with the polishing mop. The way I do this is clamp them between some pieces of wood at the same height.

This is a useful place: http://www.thepolishingshop.co.uk/acata ... _Kits.html They have s basic plastic polishing kit.

The other thing to beware of is be gentle with the mop. You need a fairly small, soft mop. Too much pressure will melt the surface of the plastic.

I wouldn't try to polish the fronts of the keys unless they are particularly bad. If I have ever had to do this, I have used a small mop and a Dremel tool.

Perhaps other members on the forum may use something else, but I use Vonax (look on Google) compound for polishing all plastic items.

[tempogen]

Personnally I consider it most unwise to unscrew any of the frame(plate) screws as I fear the frame may crack- don't know what others think.

ok so if i don't unscrew the frame, what do i do exactly? most of the screws moved, with the exception of three that are very stubborn. i didn't try too hard for the fear of some stupid mistake i might make, so i screwed them all back and covered it and went home...

[vernon]

Can I have a seconder for my opinion that to loosen the frame screws is potentially disastrous. Tempogen is relying on us.

[Barrie Heaton]

vernon is right there is a problem with the bracing twisting and punting force on one site of the frame so there is a risk. but since you have gone this far......

You will have to remove all strings and take height measurements from to soundboard. Before that you need to take pin hight, pressure bar hight, mic all the strings, make a patten of the bass strings. Take note of the string pattern Return or Eye (how they go round the hitch pins )

Don't be tempted to take out one screw at a time, you need to do one turn on each screw to release any tension in the frame work clockwise round the frame when all the screws are lose
Get a piece of thick cardboard and draw the frame on it, when you take a screw out put it in the card in the same place as the screw , they may look the some, they are often not

Have fun we will listen out for the bang

Barrie,

[Pianomate]

Do you really need to take the frame off? Can't you manage without doing so? Personally, from an engineering point of view I'd try and manage without taking it off, but it is, however well beyond my level of experience.

[tempogen]

Can I have a seconder for my opinion that to loosen the frame screws is potentially disastrous. Tempogen is relying on us.

God forbid that i doubt you Vernon, i have complete faith in what you tell me. but, i sort of took it for granted that i have to take the plate, which is that cast-iron thing with all the strings, off the soundboard in order to repair it. for you to tell me not to do it means one of two things:

I stop here

I find a way to work on everything without detaching it, as Pianomate suggested. which heaven knows is what i'd love to do, being the lazy person that i am.

*bang*

[vernon]

Don't take the frame out unless you intend to remove al the strings first. If not the latter, work on it in the piano.

[tempogen]

great so i decided to work around the plate...

so i received a pricelist from Heckscher. and with my current budget, i can afford the Abel hammers. now if only i can figure out which ones i need the "STD bored" or the short bore... if I wait a bit i can probably afford the Steinway pattern one. My father is currently in Scotland, and he's leaving on the 24th, so i would like to exploit this and have them sent to him, to save myself extra shipping cost and an agonizing wait.

[tempogen]

well that went belly up..

so i have to take a break from my project till mid June as i have some finals coming... it gives time for the orders to come in, and for me to come up with a realistic plan....

[vernon]

What subject are studying for your " finals?" Camel racing? Sand castles? Thought I'd ask.

[tempogen]

What subject are studying for your " finals?" Camel racing? Sand castles? Thought I'd ask.

No actually, those are too hard, so i decided to take easy street and study Medicine.

And thanks for asking

[NewAge]

What subject are studying for your " finals?" Camel racing? Sand castles? Thought I'd ask.

Vernon, fiendish sense of humour - without a 'smiley'......

Tempogen, best of luck with your finals!

[vernon]

[Barrie Heaton]

What subject are studying for your " finals?" Camel racing? Sand castles? Thought I'd ask.

No actually, those are too hard, so i decided to take easy street and study Medicine.

And thanks for asking

A bit of Medicine on the piano as a detraction

good luck with the exams

Barrie

[tempogen]

ok so as long as i'm pausing i thought i'd display the finances hemorrhaged out of me :

507 GBP price of the piano as is
275 GBP all the spare parts excluding hammers and strings (all the felts, springs, dampers, and some needed tools)
-----------
782 GBP

Future expenses :

135 GBP the cabinet ( i took the parts to a maker today )
(?) 200GBP hammers
(?) 200GBP strings
-----------------------
Rough total:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
1317 GBP + lots of work... (+tuning???)

so again..

Steinway model Z... worth the trouble?

[Pianomate]

£135 for the cabinet work sounds a bit on the cheap side to me. Is their work of good quality?

[tempogen]

actually there is even cheaper... it's a 100 GBP for the bits of wood that need changing. only the fall and the two arms that hold the keybed were saved. and roughly 35 for the finish, which is going to be a dye and varnish i think. to try and mimic the original color and texture. the samples i saw were pretty decent, and the Moroccan professional who i talked to seemed to know what he was talking about. by Libyan standards this is the usual price for this type of work, or even a bit on the pricey side.
Still i just took it to see what i'm kind of money i'm expected to spend. and i won't be start with it till i'm back...

by the way, my terminology is off, so i'm not sure about the finish, but there is no veneer involved, and different dyes are used to color the surface of the plywood, and them some sort of protective layer is added, which is not so glossy.

[Pianomate]

Finishing is my main area of expertise and I am familir with what you describe. They will need to apply veneer over the cut edges of the ply so you can't see the "sandwich" of the wood. My guess is the stain and finish will be spray applied. The stain should be what makes the colour rather than the varnish (coloured varnishes on light woods are a no-no) What system of finish are they suggesting? Can you find out?

Usual finishes:

-Shellac (French polish) - more for antiques and pre 1930
-Pre Catalysed (Nitrocellulose) lacquer - still the most popular furniture lacquer, sometimes incorporates a melamine flake for durability.
-Acrylic lacquer - water based lacquer, more for use for interior decoration.
-Polyurethene varnish - tends to soften with age - more for DIY
-Polyester resin - gives a high, wet look gloss shine, or matt versions available.
-Synthetic oil based varnish - usually for exterior use
-Natural oil based varnish (eg yacht vernish) - do.

[tempogen]

well all i know is that they wipe back and forth on the surface, seeming to add layer after layer of the dye, to give it that streaky wood look.
I have no idea about the final layer though, but it's not varnish.. i'll have to ask and get back to you on that

[Pianomate]

You need to make sure the wood is stained by an absorbins stain else if you get a scuff, you end up with a light coloured mark which is impossible to repair satisfactorily.

[tempogen]

i'm quite sure that the primary stain they use is something water based since it soaks right through.. after that as they wipe more and more it gets thicker and heavier in consistency, this is from watching them work.so if that makes any sense to you at all let me know. again i'll take a detailed account of the process when i visit the workshop.

[vernon]

personally,whatever your aspirations for authenticity, I would go for matt black. This covers many blemishes and is the stand-by of the ages for pianos. Note that black finish in a new piano is always the cheapest. If you ever strip an old black piano,even of the highest quality, you will be presented with a variety of multicoloured treewood.
A beautiful ol 1900s Bluthner in the finest rosewood case will have painted legs!

[tempogen]

Hello all,

So i'm back to work, and i'm wondering, does anyone have a diagram of how the pedals are supposed to work? i think i'm either missing a wooden rod, or one of the pedals has no function.....

[joseph]

I am intrigued as to the outcome of this piano.

[Pianomate]

I'm sure he eventually realised it was an impossible task and his time would be better spent elsewhere.

[NewAge]

I'm sure he eventually realised it was an impossible task and his time would be better spent elsewhere.

You may be right. It's rather surprising the OP has not provided an update since mid 2009, even to admitting defeat - which would be unlikely as he appeared particularly determined on the rebuild project - parts purchased and funds allocated for additional piano spares, etc.
If one assumes he graduated from studying medicine and is now a doctor, chaotic events this year -
regular readers may recall that the OP was from Tripoli, Libya - would have put severe strain on anyone living in Libya - especially those in the medical profession.
Hopefully we may hear back on this, with good news.

[joseph]

Oh no, I forgot he was in Tripoli. I hope he's OK.