Problems with tuning

crispin · Post by **crispin** » 14 May 2009, 14:08

Previously I have posted about our new Bechstein Academy A124 upright going horribly out of tune over a two month period. At that time I was uncertain where to apportion the blame since winter had created a period of low humidity... since that time I have been running a humidifier that kept the humidity at the 40-45% level and now with Spring - the humidity has risen to be between 50 and 55% over the last month.
One month after being re-tuned we found that F4 and F#4 had started to sound ugly .... after some week of fiddling with a recording device and displaying the waveform on the computer (on db scale) one can clearly see the beats when one string of a triplet making the note has gone 'out of tune' .... and using a bit of cork one can mute the strings and easily find that for both the F4 and the F#4 - one string has slipped out of tune.

I asked Bechstein and they have some theory about the wire slipping out of the hole in the tuning pin - after careful study I can see no evidence of this happening however I do observe that the wires are only wrapped around the tuning pin ~ 2.7 turns rather than the recommended 3 to 4 turns. Bechstein sent a representative - who claimed the problem was to do with the voicing ... and 'voiced' several notes he selected before even attempting to tune the piano. This was a complete disaster - maybe I will write more about this ugly story sometime later - however now - six weeks after this voicing experience (or non experience) these notes have recovered (well - most of them) and one comes back to the tuning problem. Now many notes sound ugly and indeed the waveforms from many - almost all - show these beats etc etc ... the piano is now clearly out of tune again - both to the ear and displayable with modern technology.... the problem is certainly general and not confined to just some few selected notes.

Finally my question: the only thing that I can think that makes the tuning so unstable on this piano is (a) if there are not enough turns around each tuning pin (question: is 2.7 turns too little? Can this really be the cause of this problem?) (b) if somehow this batch of piano wire has a problem.
Can any of you give indications of what generates instability with the tuning?

Reading on the web - I find no evidence that Bechstein pianos suffer from instabilities with tuning - can anyone who has any experience with the Bechstein Academy 124 indicate whether the tuning is stable or not.

Right now I have the fifth tuning for this piano scheduled in 2 weeks time...

chrisvenables · Post by **chrisvenables** » 14 May 2009, 17:51

I haven't seen your previous post, so I'm unsure as to how old the piano is.

New pianos can take a good 12/18 months to settle - and may need 3 monthly tuning in the first year.

The coils sound OK and the wire quality is unlikely to be the cause.

You shouldn't need a humidifier in the summer - try and keep the level stable at around 50-60%. You may even need a dehumidifier whilst the heating is off.

Other factors to consider: 1. Heavy playing can knock it out of tune.
2. Ask your tuner to 'hard' tune it. If he doesn't know what that means - try another tuner! (Ask your local concert hall who they use to tune and try him) Check what pitch it's at before and after tuning and make sure he knows that you're going to keep a record of that on future tunings.

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 14 May 2009, 18:13

My piano took a good 18 months to settle - had it tuned three times during that period. It's very stable now, but it did take its time. It also needed some notes voicing early on as the tone was very variable in the middle of the treble register when it arrived, but I think that had more to do with insufficient preparation.

I'd get the best tech you can afford to check your Bechstein out.

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 15 May 2009, 07:38

crispin wrote:
Can any of you give indications of what generates instability with the tuning?

Reading on the web - I find no evidence that Bechstein pianos suffer from instabilities with tuning - can anyone who has any experience with the Bechstein Academy 124 indicate whether the tuning is stable or not.

Firstly, the above posts are all very valid re tuning instability in new pianos. Secondly, from recollection, the Academy has basically the same frame as the Zimmermann, and from experience, the pressure bar on one or two Zimmermen (?!) that I have tuned has not been tightened down to the optimum position. This results in sections of strings which are very sensitive to movements of the tuning lever, and the tendency to go out of tune after a heavy fff playing. Ask your tuner for his thoughts. C. Bechsteins have an agraffe construction which eliminates this possiblilty.

NewAge · Post by **NewAge** » 15 May 2009, 10:01

Crispin,
Apart from having played one or two, I have no direct experience with the Bechstein Academy 124 regarding tuning stability.
However I have followed your piano purchase from the start with interest, and seem to recall you took delivery of the piano new in July 2008. So to date you've had 4 tunings, and now require a 5th.
I took delivery of my new Sauter M-Line at about the same time, and even after the two in-house tunings (which really became necessary), by early 2009 it was again in need of another tuning. And would have had this done although I preferred to wait until the central (underfloor) heating had been turned off - this probably at the end of the week as we are currently into the infamous French 'Saints de Glaces' folklore period, which probably explains why the weather has been pretty grim recently in the SW.
So, I could have easily had a third tuning say in Feb (but decided against this), and I'm sure the tuning would have been again necessary now due to the fluctuations in the humidity and especially newness of the piano.
I'd like to think that your piano is still settling-in, and as Chris states this can take anything up to 18 months - it's still a relative young one. Some cheeses take longer to mature so perhaps your piano is similar - although I sincerely hope you don't have large round holes in the soundboard........

For additional info, I have recorded hygrometer variation from 60% in the summer, down to 40 during autumn/winter - with heating on. Heating has been on low for last month and reading is currently 54%. It appears you have been experiencing similar variations in the north.
Obviously at the end of 18 months or say 2 years, if your tuning is still not remaining stable over a full season without significant humidity changes, then you may well have cause for concern. If I were you, I wouldn't panic just yet though.
Although I think it's without significance as our pianos are of different makes, for what it's worth, I just had a look at the wire wrapping around the tuning pins on mine. Three on the bass strings, and four on the treble.

joe · Post by **joe** » 15 May 2009, 11:29

Go back to dealer and get them to send a Bechstein tek to tune and prep piano and see how it settles,then if still not sastified ask them to change it over,had a client who bought a C.Bechstein Model 8 hailed as "THEWORLDS FINEST UPRIGHT PIANO",after 1 year the frame was peeling,hinges where loose.no problem with tuning,he paid £19,000 for it and still was not happy and wanted to trade it in for a Steinway K or Grotrian-Steinweg Concertino,since he had not bought from me was not able to offer px.He managed to get the company who supplied to replaced instrument like for like and no problems ever since.

crispin · Post by **crispin** » 15 May 2009, 12:29

Dear NewAge: Indeed the piano was bought in July 2008... and tuning #5 will happen in two weeks time. I am not sure if you have a humidifier - now I do - without it the humidity drops to 20% due to becoming so cold outside. I now suspect that the humidity should stay in the same range as you... and I believe that a well seasoned piano should be able to deal with this. However at this moment various notes go out after a month ... and after 8 weeks or so - there are many notes.

Dear PianoGuy: I will look at the pressure bar - and speak to the tuner when he comes as per your suggestion. Indeed the Bechstein Academy is like the Zimmerman and is without agraffes. My son plays the piano - and I would not say he plays at fff level... but again I will speak to the tuner when he visits. Certainly it is difficult to tune since the tuning pins appear very tight...

Thanks to all for the many useful comments.

Model V · Post by **Model V** » 15 May 2009, 16:37

When our old Vertegrand had been re-strung it took a good couple of years to reach stability. We thought it was broken for a while! Suddenly it settled down and was beautiful thereafter.

A couple of things to ask the professionals:

Is it normal for a new piano made by a company as posh as Bechstein to take ages to settle?

Also, what's the difference between a Bechstein and a C Bechstein?

MV

Post by **vernon** » 15 May 2009, 20:24

pg
Zimmermaenner( havent got an umlaut)

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 15 May 2009, 20:56

crispin wrote:
Finally my question: the only thing that I can think that makes the tuning so unstable on this piano is (a) if there are not enough turns around each tuning pin (question: is 2.7 turns too little? Can this really be the cause of this problem?) (b) if somehow this batch of piano wire has a problem.
Can any of you give indications of what generates instability with the tuning? .

2.5 or 3.5 coils is just a cultural thing British use to be 2.5 German 3.5 to 4.5

What can be a pain is pin spacing if the strings on the pins are touching in the dead length this can unstable the last unison you just did. Most tuners do *123 (unless they use a long mute then its 231) its better to tune 321 if strings are touching less problems Also, this problem is made worse if the pressure bar is set too high

*Number 1 is the top pin

Have you been observing the tep and humidity of the room

Barrie,

NewAge · Post by **NewAge** » 15 May 2009, 22:59

Model V wrote:
Also, what's the difference between a Bechstein and a C Bechstein?

MV

The standard or regular upright pianos are called the Academy series, and display ‘Bechstein’ on the fallboard. The designer uprights including the much-loved Concert 8 are known as the Concert series with ‘C Bechstein’ on the fallboard, their cabinets are sleeker and more sophisticated than the Academy series. Unsure about the mechanical details, but I would assume more attention is given to voicing etc to produce a richer tone palette with the Concert series. Perhaps the professionals on the forum can enlarge on this.

crispin · Post by **crispin** » 15 May 2009, 23:03

Dear Barrie

In general I do not think the strings are touching in the dead space - close but not touching... if I look carefully maybe I will find one... but in general they do not touch.

Exactly how do I tell if the pressure bar is set too high? I add a photo below... I will try and find a large screwdriver to see if any of these screws holding the pressure bar can be moved.... but I would guess that they should all be very tight?

mdw · Post by **mdw** » 16 May 2009, 07:33

crispin wrote: I add a photo below... I will try and find a large screwdriver to see if any of these screws holding the pressure bar can be moved.... but I would guess that they should all be very tight?
DSCN1879.jpg

NO NO NO NO NO. You turn it one way you risk breaking the screw, the other will bugger up the tuning even more. Instant void guarantee. If you must look just look to see if the screw heads are seated in the pressure bar or LOOK loose. You have paid a bucket load of cash for this piano. Make the dealer and the importer aware of your concerns by registered letter and give it a while to settle in. Pianos are now made and shipped with not much time sitting about. Therefore that sitting about and lots of tuning time is taken up in your house at your expence. Just one of those things.

joseph · Post by **joseph** » 16 May 2009, 07:56

i know its not related to your bechstein issue, but the constant changes in the weather at this time of year are swinging the temperature from very low to quite high. It would seem that Dundee has its own special microclimate (it seems to have its own special everything else too

) and this is causing my pianos to suffer a bit. Strangely enough, the Brodmann, which I save for finishing work, seems to go first (although it has settled a fair bit now, and isn't swinging as much...) and the old unrestored pile of rust that is my beloved Bluthner, that gets 7 bells knocked out of it, just sits there, in tune, not wanting to budge all that much,

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 16 May 2009, 09:38

crispin wrote:Dear Barrie

In general I do not think the strings are touching in the dead space - close but not touching... if I look carefully maybe I will find one... but in general they do not touch.

Exactly how do I tell if the pressure bar is set too high? I add a photo below... I will try and find a large screwdriver to see if any of these screws holding the pressure bar can be moved.... but I would guess that they should all be very tight?
DSCN1879.jpg

Yes they are, number 2 string is on the coil of number 3 on quite a few this can on some pianos make the setting of the string when tuning difficult. As your piano is new you also have the extra problem of the timber settling down and this can take time

As to the PB each make and model has a hight setting. There is a rule of thumb guide applied However, I am not posting that on an open forum as the setting of the down bearing on the Vbar is not to be changed wile the piano is at pitch and you would void your guarantee big time

Monitor which notes go out of tune first and repot this to the tuner

I have a Schimmel grand on my round that has took 3 years to settle down and would go out of tune in days. We had to fit a life saver that was 6 months ago and the piano is now a delight to play

Barrie,

joe · Post by **joe** » 16 May 2009, 10:17

To my knowledge all new Bechstein are now being manufactured by BECHSTEIN-SAMICK ALLIANCE in Indonesia as Mr Karl Schulze is the owner of both companies,previous to that Petrof where building them a Petrof 126 and a Bechstein Concert 8 where almost identical pianos apart from the casework and the price.Pianos are paraded as "Made in Germany" but to use that label the instrument has only got to have 15% german materials and a tune and a prepp maybe by a german tek,there are a few others using the same marketing angles.There is a public romance with Bechstein going back years,the old ones where hellish to tune,false harmonics,cracked frames,and some strange wrestplank problems,but if you get a good one you have won a prize,because they are very few out of the thousands i have seen that would want to recon and sell on.The reason i am lead to believe on the old grands the quality of frame used for the export market was inferior to the home market,and that was 100 years ago have pianos really moved forward?.

crispin · Post by **crispin** » 16 May 2009, 10:51

Although I can not know for certain how much of this Bechstein academy comes from Germany or elsewhere... to me this is besides the point. One expects a piano labelled Bechstein with the corresponding price tag to have Bechstein quality and to be backed up by the Bechstein name.
This piano was bought due to its precise touch and strong - also aggressive - sound ... and this sound I really enjoy - especially when compared to other pianos. My problem is that after 4 weeks from a tuning - one starts to have some ugliness added to the tone of this piano because - initially - one string of the triplet 'slips' out of tune.
So question: if it is due to humidity affecting the soundboard (for example) ... do you expect single strings of various triplets to go out of tune... or do you expect a more general drop of the bass or treble? Should I suspect the pressure bar (for example) since initially it appears to be individual strings giving the problem? After 8 weeks everything has wandered around so I can no longer define that an individual string has gone out of tune.

I think seriously about a 'piano saver' ... if I was sure that it would solve the problem - I would get one fitted tomorrow... the environment does change... now it is warmer and more humid than some months ago... but somehow I am alarmed by how much this piano goes out of tune with small changes in the environment.

chrisvenables · Post by **chrisvenables** » 16 May 2009, 11:55

Crispin:

From the photo, apart from the very iffy design, it looks like the strings aren't even spaced properly!

Definitely don't do anything to it yourself. Get the dealer or a tech from Bechstein to also check over the tightening of all bolts, space strings, tap down strings and retune. Then get the same tech to come back a month later to monitor it.

I'm not happy by what I saw in the photo.

joe · Post by **joe** » 16 May 2009, 12:15

Get the dealer to send their top man at their expense prepp and tune give it 6 months if still not happy swap it over or ask for full refund posh name pity about the quality dont stock threm and i have my reasons to be discussed in another topic for the future.

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 16 May 2009, 14:44

joe wrote:To my knowledge all new Bechstein are now being manufactured by BECHSTEIN-SAMICK ALLIANCE in Indonesia as Mr Karl Schulze is the owner of both companies,previous to that Petrof where building them a Petrof 126 and a Bechstein Concert 8 where almost identical pianos apart from the casework and the price.Pianos are paraded as "Made in Germany" but to use that label the instrument has only got to have 15% german materials and a tune and a prepp maybe by a german tek,there are a few others using the same marketing angles.There is a public romance with Bechstein going back years,the old ones where hellish to tune,false harmonics,cracked frames,and some strange wrestplank problems,but if you get a good one you have won a prize,because they are very few out of the thousands i have seen that would want to recon and sell on.The reason i am lead to believe on the old grands the quality of frame used for the export market was inferior to the home market,and that was 100 years ago have pianos really moved forward?.

The Bechstein Academy models have German music wire, hammers, wrestplank, soundboard and a Renner action, so I reckon that adds up to a good deal more than 15%, and under EEC rules, the final assembly must be carried out in the country, so I reckon it qualifies for a "Made in Germany" label even if other major components are made by Samick in Indonesia. I've never seen the logic in the price hike of the Academy over the near identical Zimmermann, but the OP here tried both and felt the premium was worth paying, so that's OK in my book. I'm not a fan of Bechstein in terms of value for money, but the neither am I particularly impressed by any other German manufacturer on that front. The Zimmermann models give you the same for less it seems.

I go back to my pressure bar suggestion. Get Bechstein's recommended tuner to tune it and see if he notices difficulty in doing so. I he does then he's more like to tell you there's a problem and angle for a replacement piano than risk you thinking he's an incompetent tuner. It may well be purely the 'settling-down' period of course.

As for old Bechsteins, they are seriously over-rated. Home market models were identical to export models and display the same faults, and having tuned in Germany I can vouch for that firsthand. They were made in huge numbers, and any prolific German piano manufacturer's products of the 1890 to 1910 era can have frame problems. Witness frame cracks in Blüthner, Hoffmann, Gors and Kallmann (these were notorious for upright frame disasters) and of course Bechstein. German metallurgy of that era was very poor. The problems could be reduced by many years 'cooling' of iron frames before they were made into pianos.

joe · Post by **joe** » 16 May 2009, 15:46

Problem solved return piano get the cash back and get a Samick 121 or Reid-Sohn 131 nicely prepped and tuned take the name off who would know the difference,badge engineering,wholesalers margins,thats what your are paying for some of the seventies Bechsteins where good when Feurich pianos made them under license.

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 16 May 2009, 16:53

joe wrote:Problem solved return piano get the cash back and get a Samick 121 or Reid-Sohn 131 nicely prepped and tuned take the name off who would know the difference,badge engineering,wholesalers margins,thats what your are paying for some of the seventies Bechsteins where good when Feurich pianos made them under license.

Er.... Not exactly good advice.

NewAge · Post by **NewAge** » 17 May 2009, 14:02

crispin wrote:Dear Barrie

In general I do not think the strings are touching in the dead space - close but not touching... if I look carefully maybe I will find one... but in general they do not touch.

Exactly how do I tell if the pressure bar is set too high? I add a photo below... I will try and find a large screwdriver to see if any of these screws holding the pressure bar can be moved.... but I would guess that they should all be very tight?
DSCN1879.jpg

Barry, in answer to Crispin you stated:- "What can be a pain is pin spacing if the strings on the pins are touching in the dead length this can unstable the last unison you just did. Most tuners do *123 (unless they use a long mute then its 231) its better to tune 321 if strings are touching less problems Also, this problem is made worse if the pressure bar is set too high."

Who was it that once said, "a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing", at least when it comes to piano mechanics for some of us novices!
I've just had a good look at my piano and see that I have a similar condition.
To be more precise, in the dead length above the pressure bar I have counted 8 cases where the string from the No.1 pin is touching the No.2 string below. Also 48 (fourty-eight!) cases where the No.1 string is touching the left adjacent No.3 coil. These checks were initially visual, then confirmed using a 0.002in feeler gauge.
Now I must say that I am delighted with my piano, it plays beautifully, sounds superb, and we're still in the honeymoon period.

I had assumed that 2 tunings in the first 6 months from new, and a third now due after 1 year from new is completely normal. However the condition above with strings contacting pin coils has me wondering. What are your thoughts? Should I simply indicate to the tuner next month to follow the 321 tuning method you describe, or is there something more fundamental with pin spacing that should be followed up with the dealer?
I've also observed that the right-hand pressure bar is positioned slightly higher (by about 2mm) than the left-hand pb. Is this considered a normal feature of the set-up, or indicative of a possible anomaly? (All of the pb screws appear to be firmly seated).
I can submit some photos if required.

Crispin, now look what you've started........

crispin · Post by **crispin** » 17 May 2009, 14:50

Dear NewAge

Looking carefully I find maybe 10 cases where #1 touches the coil of #2 of the same note... and one wonders why since the positions of the tuning pins is fixed by holes in the frame.. one would assume that the frame is carefully designed do that the wires do not touch.

I am not exactly sure what you mean by the pressure bar being 'higher' Does higher mean away from the floor ... or away from the back frame. Maybe a photo would help

With my piano the left hand pb is displaced some mm higher (away from the floor) than the right hand one. I can not tell how well the pressure bars are seated or exactly how the distance from the frame is fixed. After advice from this forum - I just look and do not touch.

When in tune - I find that this is a superb piano with a touch that my son is overjoyed with... It is just that it 'slips' out of tune far quicker than I expected.

Yes I see what I have started ... but personally after paying over so much cash - I want to enjoy it to its maximum... and this tuning problem bugs me. I somehow suspect that after some time it will settle and there is nothing fundamentally wrong... and I do not object (well - not too much) to pay for extra visits from professional tuners. However I know that if there is a problem - it is better to bring this problem up earlier than later.

NewAge · Post by **NewAge** » 17 May 2009, 17:54

Hi Crispin,
By pressure bar 'higher', I meant height from floor . Photos attached show general configuration of strings and tuning pins, as piano received approx 1 year ago (top photo), and now (lower). No difference from what I can see, so don't think this is related to temp or humidity.

By the way, I think you realized I was joking when I said, "look what you've started". As an ex-engineer, I'm fascinated in the mechanics of all this, so just trying to broaden my knowledge.

Question for the professionals:- Could you give your views on this please - with a piano out of the box with the condition shown on top photo (strings touching the pin coils), is this a condition you would expect to be rectified during the general preparation, pre-delivery?

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 17 May 2009, 19:16

NewAge wrote: Question for the professionals:- Could you give your views on this please - with a piano out of the box with the condition shown on top photo (strings touching the pin coils), is this a condition you would expect to be rectified during the general preparation, pre-delivery?

Your piano displays nothing unusual. It's slightly clumsy frame drilling/design/wrestpin spacing, but a large proportion of pianos in the real world are like it if not worse. I can think of a few 1960s Kemble Grands where the pin spacing is so poor it's difficult to tell which wrestpin adjusts which string. Preparation can do something to improve the string spacing but not the frame drilling, and I'd be surprised if many dealers even look at this during prep unless there's obvious uneven spacing or weird characteristics when tuning. Having said that, the string spacing in your pictures looks pretty good, and rather better than that of the Bechstein Academy. Design looks better too, and nice to see a well-finished frame rather than the cheap Hammerite favoured by many German makers from whom one would expect better.

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 17 May 2009, 20:19

NewAge wrote:
Barry, in answer to Crispin you stated:- "What can be a pain is pin spacing if the strings on the pins are touching in the dead length this can unstable the last unison you just did. Most tuners do *123 (unless they use a long mute then its 231) its better to tune 321 if strings are touching less problems Also, this problem is made worse if the pressure bar is set too high."

"some pianos" was made in Bold and underlined to emphasize that not all pianos suffer this problem even with bad spacing and a lot depends on coil and PB hight, and that is from the frame not the floor. I was not saying that this is the problem of this piano just one of many factors to look into the most common one new pianos is the wood.

Barrie,

crispin · Post by **crispin** » 17 May 2009, 20:59

Now that I have started this photo business - let me continue... here is a similar photo to to compare a Bechstein Academy 124 with the Sauter M122 of NewAge. The Sauter looks much cleaner - and the pins are more separated in the vertical direction - which I would guess would make the problem (if it is a problem) of the wire touching a coil more likely to happen. Note the cheap hammerite finish of the Bechstein so well loved by PianoGuy

However my follow-up question is shown in the lower photo. There are these strange marks/scratched on the ledge below the pressure bar. Most are to the left of the strings. These appear to be made by the string being scraped along this ledge. The only way I can think of to produce such marks is if the pressure bar was tightened down after all the strings were installed and under tension. Is this the procedure used during manufacturing a piano? To me - I find it strange - surely such a technique would weaken the string at that point? Is there any other way to make such marks? I only see these marks for the strings that go under the left-hand pressure bar....

NewAge · Post by **NewAge** » 17 May 2009, 21:22

Piano Guy & Barry,
Many thanks for your words of wisdom.

NewAge · Post by **NewAge** » 17 May 2009, 21:26

crispin wrote:Now that I have started this photo business - let me continue... here is a similar photo to to compare a Bechstein Academy 124 with the Sauter M122 of NewAge. The Sauter looks much cleaner - and the pins are more separated in the vertical direction - which I would guess would make the problem (if it is a problem) of the wire touching a coil more likely to happen. Note the cheap hammerite finish of the Bechstein so well loved by PianoGuy

However my follow-up question is shown in the lower photo. There are these strange marks/scratched on the ledge below the pressure bar. Most are to the left of the strings. These appear to be made by the string being scraped along this ledge. The only way I can think of to produce such marks is if the pressure bar was tightened down after all the strings were installed and under tension. Is this the procedure used during manufacturing a piano? To me - I find it strange - surely such a technique would weaken the string at that point? Is there any other way to make such marks? I only see these marks for the strings that go under the left-hand pressure bar....

Crispin,
I really don’t think that is any cause for concern. The ledge below the pressure bar displays similar marks on mine too – under both lh & rh pressure bars. Probably during initial setting up/regulation/ spacing of the strings.
Oh, and I’ve just had orders from the OH to stop ponsing around with the piano, and to take the dog for a walk. That’s it then! The top panel on my piano is now being re-installed and araldited in place, before I find something really untoward!
Cheers.

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 17 May 2009, 21:30

crispin wrote: Note the cheap hammerite finish of the Bechstein so well loved by PianoGuy

Heh! You know I love to tease, but the process of casting, filling and spraying a car-body like finish is rather more labour intensive than a hammered-paint finish, and looks good too. Bechstein are not the only prestige manufacturers that get away with painting a rough casting with cheapo Finnegan's Hammerite. Seiler, Grotrian-Steinweg and Ibach are also guilty. Yamaha of course produce a frame that is texture-perfect straight from the casting process, and perhaps this is the best approach....

crispin wrote:However my follow-up question is shown in the lower photo. There are these strange marks/scratched on the ledge below the pressure bar. Most are to the left of the strings. These appear to be made by the string being scraped along this ledge. The only way I can think of to produce such marks is if the pressure bar was tightened down after all the strings were installed and under tension. Is this the procedure used during manufacturing a piano? To me - I find it strange - surely such a technique would weaken the string at that point? Is there any other way to make such marks? I only see these marks for the strings that go under the left-hand pressure bar....

These marks can be made by string spacing procedures post-manufacture.

crispin · Post by **crispin** » 17 May 2009, 21:46

PianoGuy wrote:Heh! You know I love to tease

Yes I know this... and actually I like this healthy banter in this forum... but anyway you have a point - certainly the Sauter has a much cleaner finish and gives the impression that they are taking care of the details, much more than this hammerite finish that reminds me of the valve radios I built in my youth.

Anyway - thanks for all the useful advice that you give so freely on this forum... it is hard to imagine how we managed before the age of internet.

Post by **vernon** » 17 May 2009, 22:43

I feel that where the string enters the hole in the wrest pin, in the pictures, there is too much of a "loop"which may account for some tuning instability.
We always ,after tensioning, pinch out that loop with pliers. It often goes in with a satisfying "ping" which surely indicates that all the pressure was not taken up.Obviusly the pitch of the note drops slighty which emphasises the above point. This is not usually a feature of prep of a new piano but certainly of a re-string-- here anyway.

crispin · Post by **crispin** » 17 May 2009, 23:18

vernon wrote:I feel that where the string enters the hole in the wrest pin, in the pictures, there is too much of a "loop"which may account for some tuning instability.

Hmm - this sounds just like the message I received from Bechstein that I quote below... eventually they send some "expert" who refused to look at the pins and started to attack the hammers to 'voice' it - before he even tuned the piano. He then reported to Bechstein that there was no problem with the piano... since this guy has the title "concert tuner" my dialogue ended with Bechstein. However I recorded the piano before and after the visit of this "expert" and it is clear that he never actually tuned the offending notes. Now the piano has recovered from this 'voicing' experience by this 'expert' and has now wandered quite far out of tune so I am again thinking about the tuning

To go back to the problem in hand ... by muting various strings - I could identify the one string (and the only one of the three) that had 'slipped' - but my problem was that the 'loop' as the wire exited the hole all looked similar to my non-expert eye (please could you look at the photo below and say if this looks like a loop?).... and even though the problem starts off with just one or two notes 'slipping' - it ends up with many many notes going out of tune...

Bechstein wrote:The way you describe the symptom, it sounds as if a string slowly works its way out of the tuning pin.
You respectively your technician can check this where the string leaves the hole in the tuning pin.
The string should have a tight fit to the pin, leaving the pin at a sharp 90° angle, wheres strings that work their ways out of the pin show a slight curve there. Since also the neighboring note is unstable, it seems that a string is affected that serves for both notes. In this case check the lowest of 3 tuning pins of tone f4.
If this is the case, here is the procedure for your technician to cure the problem: First the tension of the affected string must be loosened, taken off the pin and re-inserted in the hole on the opposite side (180°).
Using the same string again will assure better tuning stability (the string is already stretched), but it should be pre-bent at a 90° angle where it enters the pin.

The tuner from the original dealer will visit on June 3... I will discuss this all with him. But is this a loop?

NewAge · Post by **NewAge** » 18 May 2009, 10:52

crispin wrote: The tuner from the original dealer will visit on June 3... I will discuss this all with him. But is this a loop?
DSCN1894.jpg

Strange. Judging from the grey colour it looks similar to the pin bushings. Is it possible that a part of the bushing has become detached on one pin?

No, on second thoughts and a further look at the photo, the l/h adjacent pin appears to have something of a similar dull-grey colour under the loop. Could this be a washer, seal or spacer which is partially detached beneath the other pin loop in question?
Should be interesting to hear what the specialists think.

Post by **vernon** » 18 May 2009, 14:43

This close up picture does not appear to be "loop" However, the original picture shows some very suspect ones.
I wondet if the stringer forgot to tap home the shared strings on the hitch pins. These also give a satisfying "ping" when they go home.

Model V · Post by **Model V** » 18 May 2009, 15:53

What a fascinating thread. Whilst I personally dislike Bechsteins, I would nonetheless have expected them to be crafted to the highest possible standard. It seems this isn't necessarily the case.

If Bechstein are (at best) inconsistent in quality, who in the world makes pianos to a genuinely high standard, repeatable from unit to unit with little variation?

MV

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 18 May 2009, 17:46

crispin wrote: I only see these marks for the strings that go under the left-hand pressure bar....

DSCN1914.jpg

How old is this piano the PB looks tarnished

Barrie,

crispin · Post by **crispin** » 18 May 2009, 23:44

Barrie Heaton wrote:How old is this piano the PB looks tarnished

We bought it less than a year ago... these marks appear to be finger prints - I believe that they can easily be removed - but at this moment I prefer not to touch...

Model V wrote:What a fascinating thread. Whilst I personally dislike Bechsteins, I would nonetheless have expected them to be crafted to the highest possible standard. It seems this isn't necessarily the case.

If Bechstein are (at best) inconsistent in quality, who in the world makes pianos to a genuinely high standard, repeatable from unit to unit with little variation?

This too is a question in my mind - one should note that this Academy range is the cheaper range of Bechsteins .. but even so - they cost a bomb imo and I, for one, expect their pianos to be backed Bechstein quality control. In retrospect - I did see a Sauter Mline 122 just like the one of NewAge.... however it was even more expensive than the Bechstein - and my son preferred the touch of the Bechstein.

I have prepared a dosier concerning this piano - and will send it to the dealer so that they can prepare themselves for their visit on June 3.

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 19 May 2009, 07:42

Model V wrote:What a fascinating thread. Whilst I personally dislike Bechsteins, I would nonetheless have expected them to be crafted to the highest possible standard. It seems this isn't necessarily the case.

They have always been technologically poor compared to many contemporaries, but in general, the new ones are expensive but rather good overall. Speaking purely about uprights in this post, grands are a whole different kettle of fish, I would rate a 1920s Blüthner as being a far better piano than a Bechy of similar age, and a large Chappell, Hopkinson or Rogers would also beat one into a pulp. It's not quite the same today. The Concert 8 is certainly a more satisfactory instrument overall than a S&S K, but poorer than a Bösendorfer 130 if they're still available, so it can rightly be rated as one of the best uprights on the market. Factor in the (once cheaper, but now rather pricy) Yamaha SU7 and you have a worthy contender for all of them.

The Academy range is visibly cheaper than the pukka C Bechstein range but most examples are still fine, although personally I'd save my money and go for the Zimmermann which is so close as to make no difference and a bit of a bargain. Occasionally a few rogues slip through which are difficult to keep in tune. I know of one Zimmermann and two Academys thus afflicted, and all problems are pressure bar related. The owners of none of them appear to be concerned however, so I think that's a good reflection on the fact that many prestige marques are bought by those who can afford them for kudos rather than for serious use. I simply tune them as best as can be done, and with concerted effort they *can* be tuned and stability is reasonable. As a tuner, one has to work as best as possible with the materials given!

Model V wrote:If Bechstein are (at best) inconsistent in quality, who in the world makes pianos to a genuinely high standard, repeatable from unit to unit with little variation?

Yamaha. Only Yamaha. The SU7 is simply stunning, although many handbuilt Yams display wear far more prematurely than their mainstream mass-produced models. Batch variation with Kawai is also minimal, but the pianos are still not quite as desirable as Yamaha. If they decided to make a Shigeru Upright then the world may well have a new standard to look up to.

joe · Post by **joe** » 19 May 2009, 08:49

Kawai k6 is an awesome piano for the price,sound more european than many high-end "Made in Germany"instruments.Yamaha SU7 is also nice to play but the top treble lets it down,Bluthner Model B was in my opinion the best upright 6 years ago tried some new ones not impressed.You do find the people who buy the Big 5 names are usually looking for pianos to impress the neighbours and the more the merrier,but the quality on offer does not bely the price.lots of the lesser names german pianos are decent but too pricey.In current climate wont be long till most of the wholesalers will not be able to bulk buy pianos as before and the factory will start to deal with the retailers direct.If you want to get a german piano buy it over there when the euro improves,or ask me,get you any new pianos via our long association with bona-fide german dealer friends.

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 19 May 2009, 08:55

joe wrote:If you want to get a german piano buy it over there when the euro improves,or ask me,get you any new pianos via our long association with bona-fide german dealer friends.

Has this forum suddenly turned into an invitation for shameless dealer self-promotion or am I missing something here?

joe · Post by **joe** » 19 May 2009, 09:23

You are passing your opinions on what you think is good value and i am giving mine,dont need self promoting we are known throughout the UK,for offering the public and the trade good value for money and honest advice,because my views are different from yours does not make yours right and mine wrong,it is after all an open forum for open discussion .

crispin · Post by **crispin** » 19 May 2009, 10:03

PianoGuy wrote: I know of one Zimmermann and two Academys thus afflicted, and all problems are pressure bar related.

So what did you do? Did you loosen the strings.. remove and reseat the pressure bar - and then retune? You say that you have met tuning instability on 1 Zimmerman and 2 Bechstein Acadamies - how many zimmermen/acadamies do you service? What do you call reasonable stability? With this Bechstein - it appears that one string of the three slips... and then the sound becomes somewhat ugly: the fundamental is still at the same frequency but suppressed ... This can happen within one month to some notes ... and then over the next months happens to more and more notes. This happens in the range C2-C5 ... I am not sure if this is due to the problem being located just on these notes - or just reflects that these notes are used most. (Actually this is not quite so - the high octaves also go way out - but I just do not care so much about them)...

Certainly the name Bechstein played a role in the choice of the piano... but more in the expectation that if there was a problem - that it would be taken care of. I will see how true this turns out to be.

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 19 May 2009, 13:45

joe wrote:You are passing your opinions on what you think is good value and i am giving mine,dont need self promoting we are known throughout the UK,for offering the public and the trade good value for money and honest advice,because my views are different from yours does not make yours right and mine wrong,it is after all an open forum for open discussion .

Joe, I'm not criticising your advice or knowledge, in fact your thoughts about many things are not too far away from mine, but what is a bit unnecessary is your constant urge to invite people to deal with your company. This is a dot org forum which should advise, not commercialise. If you want to support it by advertising on it then that's a different matter, but plugging yourself all the time shouldn't be what it's all about.

crispin wrote:
PianoGuy wrote: I know of one Zimmermann and two Academys thus afflicted, and all problems are pressure bar related.
So what did you do? Did you loosen the strings.. remove and reseat the pressure bar - and then retune?

No, since the clients in all cases were happy with the piano once tuned and had not really noticed the instability. In all cases I think the problem was more of a pain for the tuner rather than the player, although I'm sure a professional or keen student may well have noticed the drift. Pressure bar adjustment is something I'd not attempt in a client's home!! There are a number of dealers who sell or have sold Bechstein in my area, so I reckon I must have about 8-10 Academy/Zimmermanns on my round, most of which are a delight.

joe · Post by **joe** » 19 May 2009, 19:40

A point which may have been overlooked regards Bechstein piano, have you had the "hitch pins" checked at the bottom bridges to see if there is any slippage.if you loosen strings and tap down pins to be sure they are sitting at the right angles,would never advise loosening pressure bar thats a workshop job.When we restring and after rough chip-up its a good idea to "heidball"the strings using the wooden base end of a hammer on the steels , the heat created stretches the strings and helps the instrument maintain tuning stability,also helps on new pianos.Looking at photos as cv pointed out the spacing and the alignment of the tuning pins does not look to good.get tech to take coils out of wrest pins to check there is no slippage there either,would doubt the humidity is the problem,most likely not been set-up properly.Had all these problem with Eastern European pianos years ago,that why the japs where the pianos to buy and some korean instruments too,be interesting to see how the Chinese pianos stand the test of time.

chrisvenables · Post by **chrisvenables** » 21 May 2009, 12:15

The photos are great! But maybe we're over-reacting to the problem and hypothesising about something which, as many of us have stated earlier,is common, in that most new pianos have tuning instability. So let's give the dealer and the tech another chance.

Although I think the pics of Crispin's Bechstein show the design and finish to be disappointing for the price of the piano (not the most chunky of pressure bars, bad spacing and cheap guilding) tuning pins and strings on all pianos are usually very tightly concentrated in the area in question. The attached pic of a Yamaha (renowned for their design and engineering) shows slight contact, although the pins, neat coils, chunky pb and well finished frame do make the Bechstein look inferior. Crispin likes the tone and touch, so that's more important than pretty looking insides, as long as the tech can get the piano to stabilise.

Crispin, make an appointment to telephone the dealer whilst the tech is with you, to go through the investigative process in real time. If that's not possible, then I would be happy for you to ring me 01425 476644 whilst the tech is there to make sure he addresses all potential problems.

crispin · Post by **crispin** » 21 May 2009, 14:58

Dear Chris
Thanks for the reply... and indeed it could just be 'newness' and next year will settle down and stay in tune for extended periods... and I hope this is the case since I have no confidence in the dealer sorting out the problem ((a) he is 150 km away and (b) I have read some rather negative things about him on a French piano forum).

Anyway - although I am not overjoyed to see the quality of this Bechstein compared to your Yamaha or the Sauter of NewAge ... I can put that out of my mind if the sound and the touch meet our desires... our problem is that the sound is only good for a limit time.

So I have two questions:
(1) Regarding newness ... I would guess that the principle effect would be the soundboard settling and thus various octaves changing together ... ie the bass dropping in pitch could be a newness symptom? What we have here is that for a particular note : such as F4 .. one of the strings of the triplet goes out of tune with the other two. The other two are still perfect. (If I look at the beats I find a beat frequency of 1.25 Hz compared to the 370 Hz of F4). F#4 had the same behaviour (so I thought that it must be a shared string - but it was not a shared string....) Is such behaviour a symptom of newness?

(2) Between the pressure bar and the coil of wire around the tuning pin - in this Bechstein there is this green felt - this is very hard felt and the strings really dig into it (and compresses it from the 8-10 mm uncompressed thickness to about 4 mm thick) as they pass over it. Thus the pitch of the string can be affected by this felt and I can quite believe that this may take some time to settle. Furthermore - if I look at the photo from NewAge - the Sauter has red felt...I can not tell how much it is compressed but I see also that it goes under the pressure bar.... With the Bechstein - this felt strip starts under the presssure bar and eventually comes out towards the high note end. With the Yamaha - I see no felt at all ... so the question is - can this felt strip play a role in creating instability?

Many thanks for all the helpful replies that my questions has evoked - I have now really inspected this piano.... it is not a problem at the hitch pin end ... it all looks perfect at that end... if there is a problem besides being new - then it has to be at the tuning pin end.
Currently the interaction between this pressure bar and this hard felt layer makes me suspicious... (Follow up question to NewAge - how deep do the strings dig into your red felt strip.... follow up question to PianoGuy - have you ever had concern with this green felt layer in the Zimmermen/Bechsteins that you have visited?)

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 21 May 2009, 19:35

crispin wrote: follow up question to PianoGuy - have you ever had concern with this green felt layer in the Zimmermen/Bechsteins that you have visited?)

Its purpose is to stop those sections (dead lengths) of the strings resonating and interfering with the sound since they will resonate at the wrong pitches! It doesn't really cause much trouble!

Post by **vernon** » 21 May 2009, 20:15

Chris Venables
I'm sure your concerns are altruistic but I would advise you to keep out of this.
Had I a problem like this as a dealer of repute, I would be less than chuffed if you phoned up to keep me right!