Steinway model Z.. worth the trouble?

tempogen · Post by **tempogen** » 01 Apr 2009, 10:24

Good morning all,

I went to another city for a week and now i'm back. I've been slowly working on the action, unscrewing all the different parts, and removing dirt and rust from all the screws etc...
So, i'm having trouble with hammer rail cover.. as you see in the picture, it's separated, and i'm hoping i can find a mechanism to put it back in place.... any thoughts?

I'm going to Geneva next Sunday, and Tuesday i'm taking a train to Paris. Naturally i'll be on the lookout for a store or a piano repair shop to get some important spare parts. Does any of you know of a particular store in Paris or Geneva? also, i'm thinking about the hammers and some missing felt i need to sleeve some of the moving parts, and i'm not really sure about the strings...

All advice is appreciated..

Tamim

Pianomate · Post by **Pianomate** » 02 Apr 2009, 10:29

Replace ALL the hammers or the newer notes will have a different tone.

If the cover on the hammer rail is wood, moisten it to soften in, attach it with animal glue (pearl glue) and use a steam iron to iron it on to finish off.

tempogen · Post by **tempogen** » 02 Apr 2009, 11:31

Hello Pianomate,

The cover is actually metal, which i believe has been deliberately pulled of the rail...

This piano has been violated and vandalized more than anything else. the damage sustained by actual moisture is not that big. but the broken hammers, the paint, the hammer rail cover...

pesky kids....

Pianomate · Post by **Pianomate** » 02 Apr 2009, 19:26

I would be tempted to stick it back with Gripfix or similar. Bind it up with string until the adhesive has set.

tempogen · Post by **tempogen** » 19 Apr 2009, 15:22

ok so i started working on the notes, and this is one of the questions:

does the spring have to be as tight as A, or can it be like B ?

I replaced the spring and attached a new bridle strap..

A

B

Post by **vernon** » 19 Apr 2009, 19:08

you need to put the flange on the right way round for a star then A will be fine

Post by **vernon** » 19 Apr 2009, 19:08

A out he flange on the right way round and that will help

tempogen · Post by **tempogen** » 19 Apr 2009, 23:57

vernon wrote:A out he flange on the right way round and that will help

OOPS...

I noticed that much later...

Thanks Vernon.

tempogen · Post by **tempogen** » 24 Apr 2009, 11:49

still working on the notes, but I wanted to look at the keybed :

Also i found this when sweeping the endless amount of dust:

Not sure what kind of beetle larva, but thankfully i only found this 1. hopefully there aren't many, or it's a stowaway from the warehouse...

Pianomate · Post by **Pianomate** » 24 Apr 2009, 19:21

Treat with woodworm killer without delay! Not sure if it's a woodworm grub or not but if it's there, then woodworm could be there too.

Post by **vernon** » 24 Apr 2009, 19:24

Speaking as a qualified piano tech this is obviously a Libyan Piano Death beetle.
I notice the lifeline on the hand holding the specimen is rather truncated. I recommend that you leave immediately

tempogen · Post by **tempogen** » 24 Apr 2009, 19:50

vernon wrote:Speaking as a qualified piano tech this is obviously a Libyan Piano Death beetle.
I notice the lifeline on the hand holding the specimen is rather truncated. I recommend that you leave immediately

He he he... EPIC.
Not only are you a qualified piano tech, but apparently also an entomologist and a palm reader! check out that heart line! i got lotsa love.

I looked it up, and it's the larva of the black carpet beetle 'Attagenus spp", and as the name implies, it feeds on animal hair/fur products, and some synthetic materials - in this case felt .

tempogen · Post by **tempogen** » 28 Apr 2009, 15:27

hello all..

I started a blog covering the piano rebuild...
http://blognecromancy.blogspot.com/

All help is appreciated,
all comments are welcome.

Pianomate · Post by **Pianomate** » 28 Apr 2009, 18:57

Any metal parts you have cleaned the rust off, I would use very fine grade emery cloth (600) to make it shiny then very lightly wipe linseed oil over it to seal it and stop the bare metal rusting again.

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 01 May 2009, 20:21

tempogen wrote:hello all..

I started a blog covering the piano rebuild...
http://blognecromancy.blogspot.com/

All help is appreciated,
all comments are welcome.

To get you loops even on the flange

Get a small block of wood drill a 5mm hole, glue in a small length of hammer shank abut 5mm sticking out. place a flange on it (the part were the screw go's )that has a loop intact. then put a small pin nail to the top of the loop and knock in to the wood

You then have a jig that you can wrap the cord round - the advantage of this is that you can use a blunt knife to scrape from the top of the flange to the screw hole, this beds the cord in the grove and removes any excess glue in one move but keeps the lop at the correct length.

Barrie,

tempogen · Post by **tempogen** » 02 May 2009, 11:51

Thanks for the tip Mr. Heaton...

tempogen · Post by **tempogen** » 02 May 2009, 17:41

Hello all.

i could use some help with removing the broken shanks from the hammer butts to replace them.
So far i tried twice without much success. should i snap them off and rebore? it seems that they are firmly attached yet too fragile to stand any sort stress....

Post by **vernon** » 02 May 2009, 19:54

you need a shank extractor from Heckschers or Fletchers. Boring them out will give you a headache as it is almost impossible to drill at the right angle.
Failing above, drill a hole smaller than the shank and then pick out the remaing shank with a fine bradawl. It tends to come out clean and you will be on the right line.
bw

tempogen · Post by **tempogen** » 02 May 2009, 21:02

Hello,

Actually i do have a hammer/butt extractor similar to this 1 :

and it's what i used to try and extract the shank - with the aide of the little cramp - however all that happened is that the shank snapped...
so i guess i have to go with the drilling idea ?

tempogen · Post by **tempogen** » 06 May 2009, 08:58

so this is what i did:

I snapped the broken shaft, and re-bored using a drill... i used a bit that is smaller than the diameter of the shaft, and slowly removed the pieces of the old shaft. i made the holes slightly bigger than the shaft so that i can freely move it before the glue sets.
I used two intact shafts to guide the setting of the new shafts.

then i aligned them visually, and fixed them with two shafts held together with a rubber band:

i hope i'm not destroying everything...

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 06 May 2009, 10:31

I hope you have kept the first and last of each section so you have something to line up to when you put the new hammers on - thats if you are putting a full set on

Barrie,

tempogen · Post by **tempogen** » 06 May 2009, 10:47

is there no other way.....

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 06 May 2009, 13:01

its not a problem having no felt on the top one you have 7 of the 8 guide hammers. use a the first intact bass hammer as a guide but only use the tail for line up.

All the shanks should be at the same right angle to the heads, as this is your first I would glue the shanks into the heads first also, cut them to the correct length with 5mm adjusting play the holes in the butts need to accommodate this. As you have more room to move the shank up and down in the butt than the head. Do them in the piano use a short straight edge to get the level of the heads from the test hammers and a small set square to keep the heads square to the strings.

When you put the buts back on the rail put them back in the same order as they came off. make a testing hammer from one of extra heads in the new set. This is used to get a rough spacing of the butts, you can use it to do any bad travel you will have to do a final travel later.

Travel is when the hammers are at rest there is say a 5mm gap and when you bring 2 hammers to the string together that gap get smaller or wider

Barrie,

Post by **vernon** » 06 May 2009, 21:33

th secret is, as Barrie indicated, is to glue all shanks onto the heads first.
Then you put in the guide hammers,fit the others loosely but level them to the guides with a small straight edge by taking a stroke at a time with a secondcut file( if they have them in Libya)off the base.Glue them,rotating each as you do it to create the ring of glue.Don't forget to score a line up the bottom of each shank to let the air out otherwise the levelled hammers will rise up indisciminately as they dry, then you are buggered.. To do the score, drill a hole in a piece of woodand knock a pin into the hole a short way then push each shank thru' it to leave the vent. Position them as accurately as poss by eye. You can fine adjust them when set with your casting lamp.. Sideways and up and down.

tempogen · Post by **tempogen** » 06 May 2009, 22:53

Thanks Barrie and Vernon. the question is, is there a way to figure out which ones are the guide hammers if my numbering got mixed up?
I just figured that when i get the new hammers, i'd just take them out and attach them in order on the bald shanks! that's why i didn't care much to keep track of which note is which. the dampers however, are well numbered, which is less important i guess...

As Vernon so delicately put it, i am buggered.

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 07 May 2009, 20:26

Hmm

OK pianos are numbered from the bass as in 1 make a hammer tray so you can rest the hammers on, then treat it like a big jigsaw puzzle fat head to the left thin to the right do it by eye and buy touch you need as you guides
1, 26, 53, 54, 70, 71, and 88 as number 1 has no head you need the biggest head

Attached is a photo of a hammer tray if you make the back out of thin hard wood you can slip the bottom section on it keep all parts tidy make 2 of them

Barrie

Post by **vernon** » 07 May 2009, 22:07

even easier than Barrie's rack;
rummage around in the desert amongst the Bedu and find a demolished piano,rescue the fall( the lid over the keys),put two ends on it and there's your hammer rack.
Rescue the top door( the bit in front of you with the candlesticks) and there's your board for moving the keys around

re-cycle,recycle,,recycle

A440 · Post by **A440** » 08 May 2009, 00:21

Good Luck!

tempogen · Post by **tempogen** » 08 May 2009, 00:28

Thanks Barrie, now i have a plan. I can use the original picture to put the hammerless notes in the right places, and then i will be able to get the right guides. now all that's left is getting the right hammers... of course that is in addition to the strings, checking the soundboard, and refinishing the case... regulating, tuning....

mumble

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 08 May 2009, 17:41

You can buy heads with shanks pre glued you only then need to cut to length and score

Barrie,

tempogen · Post by **tempogen** » 09 May 2009, 20:47

this is not for the faint of heart....

This part worries me :

the piano's lower part got damp at some point...

Also, i wonder if the bass wires, which are an iron core with copper coils, can be saved somehow. i think this is the part that will very likely put me to a halt.

Post by **vernon** » 09 May 2009, 21:19

don't despair my Libyan friend.
Wire brush them, spray with WD 40 or Libyan equivalent and leave it till the restoration is done and with good luck they will be fine.

tempogen · Post by **tempogen** » 09 May 2009, 22:14

and the soundboard man, what about the soundboard?

If the lower inch and a half is damaged, can i do something about it?

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 10 May 2009, 10:15

tempogen wrote:and the soundboard man, what about the soundboard?

If the lower inch and a half is damaged, can i do something about it?

have looked at the other side of the soundboard test it with a spike see how soft it is

Barrie

Pianomate · Post by **Pianomate** » 11 May 2009, 11:37

Do not allow any WD40 etc to get onto the soundboard or it will affect the wood - place a sheet of card between the strings and the soundboard before you spray.

Before you try and assess anything to do with the strings and soundboard etc, give everything a REALLY good clean so you can see better.

If the wood at the bottom of the case has deteriorated, your only option is to get a furniture maker / restorer to replace it. It would not be too hard for someone skilled. I would be tempted to fill, smooth and black polyester the case to hide all the rough areas.

Though not ideal, if the bottom of the soundboard has gone soft, I would be tempted to try wood hardener on it first and see what it sounds like before attempting anything more laborious. The bottom is not the most critical section in acoustic terms.

I must comment that I applaud your commitment and enthusiasm to this project. Such a daunting task would floor just about all amateurs.

tempogen · Post by **tempogen** » 11 May 2009, 12:43

thanks pianomate that means a lot..

Regarding the casing, it appears to be made out of rather plain wood, which is a disappointment really. it's a plywood sandwich - think that's what they're called anyway- basically strips of wood between two layers of plywood, finished with a walnut veneer.
therefore i decided to replace all the deteriorated -if not all- parts with real wood. the walnut veneer could be a problem, so i'm thinking about changing the finish as well. not that i want to sell it, but how do these modifications effect the value of the piano? i'm thinking about a total redesign of the casing, perhaps adding some legs.
i am only concerned about the soundboard.

today is my birthday !
Anyone care to send some bass strings as a present ? or hammers? or both

David B · Post by **David B** » 11 May 2009, 14:57

tempogen wrote: today is my birthday !

Happy Birthday, mate.

Will this beastie be finished by your next birthday?

Pianomate · Post by **Pianomate** » 11 May 2009, 19:11

Rebuilding a case is a MAJOR task and requires great skill. If you want to do this, I would only recommend leaving it to a cabinet maker. Sorry to say, but it would definitely not be a job for an amateur.

However, first get the insides all working before you even look at the casework.

All but the earliest pianos have been built using some form of faced plywood, or blocked section timber, not just to keep costs down but

1, for stability - so that the casework is less likely to warp, twist or split over time.
2, For strength - ply is generally stronger than timber.

I would only recommend replacing with ply.

Value wise, it's best to keep as close to the original as possible.

tempogen · Post by **tempogen** » 11 May 2009, 21:35

Pianomate wrote:Rebuilding a case is a MAJOR task and requires great skill. If you want to do this, I would only recommend leaving it to a cabinet maker. Sorry to say, but it would definitely not be a job for an amateur.

Thanks pianomate. I assure you i am not THAT confident in my woodworking skills, and was definitely leaving that job to a professional. after all, i want it to look somewhat like a piano.
The reason i asked about the design was that the original steinway model Z, as you well know, has this "modern" look, which now looks outdated and very plain to the eye. it lacks that certain oomph so to speak. I thought that while i'm at it, i should give it a complete makeover. so i guess the legs are too much? i'll just try to do the best i can with the new finish...

David B wrote:
Happy Birthday, mate. Will this beastie be finished by your next birthday?

Thanks David, yes and possibly even later

Pianomate · Post by **Pianomate** » 11 May 2009, 22:10

Your trouble is that I doubt many cabinet makers you find will have any experience of building piano casework. Also you could expect to pay $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

In any way, it will look a lot better just refinished.

The design with the sloping panels doesn't look as bad as some styles such as the the 50s and 60s curves. In the late 60s and 70s, lots of furniture here had slopes and angles similar to your piano. Members on the forum will no doubt remeber the teak units, sideboards etc which were so popular.

I know of someone who used to change any dated casework of pianos, however they usually used parts from scrapped pianos rather than making from scratch. Some years ago I saw a piano with a custom made oak case by Mousey Thompson or one of those other craftsmen. Must have cost many thousands of £.

tempogen · Post by **tempogen** » 13 May 2009, 13:32

Well i do suppose it would be costly, maybe not thousands of pounds but certainly an amount worth thinking about..there is some very handsome Mahogany faced plywood - or something like that- which be very nice i think.
Also, i am a bit more ambitious, but as you said i should get all the inner parts working before doing anything like that..

Speaking of which

I was wondering why it costs so much to have these hammers recovered/restored. I was looking at this 1 site and it said 525 GBP

that is without custom making the missing ones...
so i've been looking into some companies, and with the budget i'm under i found these two :

http://www.ronsen-hammer.com/
http://www.pianosupply.com/hammers/

i've sent an email to the second one a while ago and no reply yet.

does anyone have any experience with any of these?
I have also emailed Abel germany and requested their prices.

pity i can't do anything with the old ones... perhaps i can sell them? they're very... um.. hard

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 13 May 2009, 22:56

tempogen wrote:
I was wondering why it costs so much to have these hammers recovered/restored. I was looking at this 1 site and it said 525 GBP
:

I would open a trade account if I was you. since you will be buying a few things and you will get the hammers at a lot lot less. Both below will supply you with hammers made to pattern or recover no preference in alphabetical order:

Fletcher & Newman Ltd
5 Bourne Enterprise Centre
Wrotham Road
Borough Green
Kent. TN15 8DG
TEL: 01732 886555
FAX: 01732 884789

Heckscher & Co,. Ltd
75 Bayham Street,
London NW1 0AA
Tel: 020 7387 1735
Fax: 020 7387 3043

tempogen · Post by **tempogen** » 15 May 2009, 19:44

Barrie Heaton wrote:
I would open a trade account if I was you. since you will be buying a few things and you will get the hammers at a lot lot less.

what kind of trade account do you mean? i actually use paypal to buy anything i need.. either that or cash.

In addition to the hammer, i have two bass strings that need replacing,

what do you think of those "universal replacement strings" that they have on those websites?

Post by **vernon** » 15 May 2009, 20:15

A "Trade Account" means that you will get the growing number of bits you will need at trade price, regardless of how you pay

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 16 May 2009, 09:47

tempogen wrote:

what do you think of those "universal replacement strings" that they have on those websites?

Na not worth it both company's above will do you string made to paten or a full set

Barrie

Pianomate · Post by **Pianomate** » 16 May 2009, 10:02

Before you go to the trouble of replacing your broken strings, can they not be spliced? Have you tried yet?

This is normally a much more satisfactory job as keeping the original strings to match the others is best if it works.

tempogen · Post by **tempogen** » 16 May 2009, 12:48

Pianomate wrote:Before you go to the trouble of replacing your broken strings, can they not be spliced? Have you tried yet?

This is normally a much more satisfactory job as keeping the original strings to match the others is best if it works.

Well from what i see, one of them can probably be spliced, as only the iron part of the wire at the bottom is broken, but the other one, the brass coils are unwound at the middle, so i don't know what to do about it exactly, i'll take pictures and post them - with the soundboard situation - for you experienced gentlemen to assess...

Pianomate · Post by **Pianomate** » 16 May 2009, 14:21

You can't do anything about it if it's broken in the middle. Perhaps if you post the length and size on here someone may have a second hand string.

tempogen · Post by **tempogen** » 16 May 2009, 17:35

As soon as i get my hands on a micrometer i'll post the diameter of the string..
however here's a picture:

i hope no one had a heavy meal :

Post by **vernon** » 16 May 2009, 18:12

If you send ALL the bits of the broken string/s to Fletchers or Heckshers they will make an exact copy.

ref the other 2 pics.
I would rake out all the open joints and cracks, then blow out the dust. Then glue everything together in one go with Cascamite or similar if you have enough cramps and sash cramps.Do it in a logical order otherwise when it is dry you won't be able to go back and do one you missed
bwFinally shim any cracks(!) aand fill the larger holes with carefully shaped pieces of wood