Upright Suggestions £1500

[Model V]

We've just sold our piano and are renting a small Yamaha for the time being. Ideally we would like a grand in 12 to 18 months, but the house we're in at the moment is too small. We plan to move into a bigger property in the next year. As a stop gap we would like an upright, but, because it will be a comparatively temporary purchase we need something from a private sale so we can get the money back in due course.

We're both advanced pianists and my wife will be wanting to teach on it.

Any suggestions, budget £1500 ?

Thanks,

MV.

[joseph]

what about a rental piano? you can rent an upright for 30 quid a month, or a bit more for something of higher quality. Often, shops will do a rent to buy. You could buy a Brodmann or a Wendl und Lung, or give it back at the end of the rental period.

[Openwood]

Joseph's suggestion sounds interesting, or you could just visit a few dealers and see what they can offer you. A reasonable preowned upright for £1500 should be a possibility. Check out the 'pianos for sale' links on this site too.

[Model V]

We are already renting - a nice little Yamaha. Unfortunately this is dead money as we would not want to buy this particular piano outright nice as it is.

Perhaps I wasn't clear in the op. We need something that we can unload in 12 to 18 months time and recoup all of the investment. The reason for this is that we will add it to the rest of our money to buy a grand.

Therefore, I do not want to buy in a retail environment as I will never recoup 100% that way. It might be a different matter for the grand as this would be a permanent purchase.

This leaves us relying on a private purchase (with appropriate assistance from a professional). I guess what I'm asking is which pianos would be most suitable for this so I can seek them out.

Thanks,

MV

[Openwood]

With your budget I think it comes down to the individual pianos as you find them rather than aiming for a particular make. So much will depend on how the piano has been maintained. I'd be looking for an upright by a good English maker from the 70s onwards such as Chappell or Knight. Yamaha if you're lucky. I'd avoid Astor pianos as they're shite. Personally I'd also avoid English makes from the Victorian era as they're usually knackered. There are so many makes out there - if you post them here as you find them you'll probably get the feedback you need.

[Model V]

Thanks Openwood, that's good advice. Keep a lookout, guys!

MV.

[vernon]

we rent pianos but you are not obliged to buy the rented piano after the hire term expires but you can put your rental fees towards any piano of your choice.
I am sure there are plenty of retailers out there who will do the same. it's no big deal.

[Model V]

Golly,

I don't know how many different ways I need to find to say that I have no intention (for good reasons) of buying from a dealer or retail.

MV.

[Openwood]

I don't know how many different ways I need to find to say that I have no intention (for good reasons) of buying from a dealer or retail.

Well, you haven't set it to music in the polyphonic style of Lassus, have you, eh? Get cracking

[Model V]

How many parts?

[A440]

I can't really see any "good reasons" for not buying a new piano from your local dealer if that is your budget. OK it may be more like 1700-1800 quid but you know Exactly what you are getting, it is guarranteed and a very good investment (new pianos are going up in price almost daily). You will probably get delivery and tuning in the price.
As for buying a second hand instrument in that price range, well why bother? there is no advantage and the number of pitfalls are really quite surprising! Plus you'll need to get it looked at first, get it moved and then tuned and regulated which will add a few hundred to the price.
There has never been a better time to buy a new piano (or a worse time to buy an expensive second hand one).

[Model V]

Bloody hell. I seem to have brought all the vested interests out of the woodwork. As it happens, I would never buy a brand new piano for the same reason I would never buy a brand new car. Live with it.

I need to get every penny of my money back as this is a short term measure. Buying new or retail will guarantee only one thing: that I won't.

My previous (second hand) upright actually netted me thousands on top of 15 years' ownership. I know my stuff enough to know a good from a bad piano and I will not buy without the say so of a trusted tech. And I will not buy anything without being pretty sure I will get every penny back or make a profit.

Now, if no-one else is prepared to offer advice re-manufacturers etc, It's time to let this thread die and for me to start looking.

MV

[Pianomate]

Just see what's advertised locally - papers / Ebay etc. Some of the German pianos of the early 20th Century are solid and built like battleships and good bets and in the price range (with the exception of Bechsteins etc). Makers like Ibach, Knauss, Hoffmann, Reid Sohn, Colona, Kohl, etc etc, you know the type. You would get your money back easily privided they are in good nick.

If you can find one, a good quality overstrung Broadwood upright or Collard and Collard / Brinsmead / Challen etc in good condition would be a good bet and probably in your price range.

You need to buy privately if you want to get your money back later but the usual rules apply when doing so (trying them out, getting expert opinion etc).

[vernon]

model V.
Speaking as a "vested interest" ie a family dealer of 175 years provenance I can't see your problem.
You seem very touchy but if you aspire in due course to a grand, then buy new and a good dealer will allow you the full price in px for your grand subsequently, if you buy from him.
I note that you " know a good piano from a bad one" and that you would " also consult a trusted tech."
Doesn't it strike you that those two staements are rather contradictory?

[Model V]

My problem is really simple: I might not buy my grand from a dealer, I might get a nice used one, or maybe I might not. It's very unlikely that I would buy the upright and the subsequent grand from the same place even if I were to use a dealer for the grand. I don't work that way.

I note that you " know a good piano from a bad one" and that you would " also consult a trusted tech."
Doesn't it strike you that those two staements are rather contradictory?

Not in the least. I know pianos very well and I can play too. I know when a piano is in tune, whether the action is properly regulated and whether the instrument has good tone across the range. My ability to spot, say, a minute fracture in the frame or identify a fault on the tuning plank leading to inconsistent pin tightness is, however, beyond me. That's why I would take a tech before paying up. I am acquainted with some of the best in the business, fortunately for me.

I have owned grands in the past. I merely intend to have another in due course. Not an aspiration as such.

MV

[vernon]

That's fine then. You can tell when a piano is in tune and properly regulated but you will need one of the highest qualified techs in the land, with whom you are fortunately acquainted, to advise you on your used joanna.
What if your super tech doesn't hear the wolf note that appears 2 months later; the buzz that comes only when the temperature goes over 20c, the minute crack in the frame or a shake in the plank;unseen woodworm in the lyre--etc
You can't go back to the little old lady you bought it from and say you've been robbed.You ca try.
You CAN go back to dealer and get satisfaction.
No self-respecting tech will ever say" I've inspected that piano and I guarantee it has no faults."
Those of us who live in the real piano world know that a piano is made up of bits of tape,felt,wood , brass springs and iron plus a few screws, many of which are not physically stable and subject to the whims of weather and climate .
Turkeys are not just for Xmas

[Model V]

Listen:

I didn't want to get into an argument with anyone. If you can't discern what I want to do you obviously can't read. If you won't respect what I want to do, tough. If you do understand what I want to do, back off. I do not want to play the game your way. I do not want a new piano. I do not want to buy from a dealer and I do not want to be patronised.

You are seriously out of order and are condescending beyond belief.

MV.

[mdw]

You are seriously out of order and are condescending beyond belief.

MV.

[PianoGuy]

Wa HAY!

I *love* a good argument!!

Firstly ModelV:
I would concentrate on looking for a good 1970s to 1990s piano if you don't want to keep your Yam. Something British like a Welmar, Knight, Chappell, Kemble would do, but take advice on the vintage. Make sure it's fitted with either a Schwander or Langer action (very few would be Renner) and avoid cheapjack stuff like Bentley. You could possibly find a Hellas or Fazer- both good cheapies from Finland, you'd likely pay less for a worthwhile instrument. If you're lucky a similar vintage German could come your way, maybe a Schimmel, Ibach, Seiler or similar which often used lightweight and flimsy casework in their budget ranges concealing a good piano, but avoid DDR built East German stuff. The same goes for Czech and Polish brands which are generally poor, and I'd steer clear of pre-war stuff (I don't generally hold with the advice from Pianomate) because they're generally only as good as the last workshop who rebuilt them... or not. There's also the central-heating issue. Pre-war stuff is fine if it's nicely restored or in top original order, but decent marques will be out of your budget.

Where to buy?:
Some dealers here have given good advice, and quite frankly a warranty is worthwhile. You also get delivery and one tuning included from most decent dealers at which point you can air opinions to the tuner about possible quirks. Yes, you'd be paying more. An example of the above would likely be picked up by the Trade for a few hundred quid with all faults as seen. In optically excellent nick and private sale, those punters appalled by a trade offer will probably accept around £1000 to £1500, which in all likelihood would be the dealer price anyway, but you have no guarantee that faults are not present nor will occur. You also have to shell out for transport. When you sell, you'll be in the same position. You either accept a dealer offer or try to flog it for what you've paid. At least with a dealer you get a bona-fide receipt to prove your outlay. VAT is only a minor issue for s/h pianos and is not recoverable even if you're VAT registered yourself.

I can accept your points about not buying new or from a dealer, but I think you could be opening a can of worms. I have had many clients who think they can net a bargain by being savvy, but they're not always successful. Why not take advice from your trusted tech if you think he's so good, rather than a bunch of internet botherers like us?

I do hope to goodness that you're not going down this self-cert route for your school/college concert piano. That would be a mistake.

[joseph]

Sometimes you can be really lucky and get a good piano for next to nothing. I managed to locate a piano for a pupil of mine from a college that was closing, a chappell upright, for £100. It was a 1975 model, about 120cms high, lovely tone, nice touch. Great condition. Amazing really. OK, so it had no warranty, but for less than the cost of a shopping trip in debenhams, who cares?

If i was going to spend £1500 on a piano, I'd really want to go to a dealer. If you are buying privately, do your best to shove the price down, you know it makes sense to!

When I was shopping for my new grand, I did look at second hand instruments but then I saw the Brodmann, was offered a most excellent deal on it and decided to go for it. 2 years on I haven't regretted it. At no extra cost the dealer delivered the piano, sent up a tuner to tune it and then sent up a technician to set up the action as there was a little problem with it. The piano plays like a dream now, and I could afford to keep my 6 foot Bluthner, which at some point later, I will have rebuilt.

Try not to be too prejudiced against dealers, most of them want to provide excellent service, and actually, nobody can blame them for being in it for the money - thats why I teach so much after all!

It sounds to me like vernon, pianoguy, a440, etc are all reputable and will provide you with a good instrument at a sensible price, with great backup. Also, Bluthner piano centre have some great little uprights that are being traded in, and they are always at a good price! Go and have a look.

[Model V]

As usual some balanced advice from PG.

The only purpose of my original post was to get some ideas on makes of piano to go for or to avoid for this one off short term purchase. I'm prepared to take the risk as it's my money and unless I'm very unlucky I'll get my money back. I've done it before and made money (an awful lot on one occasion)

If i screw up it's my own tough luck.

As for the grand I would be looking for a C3 or similar and almost certainly use a reputable dealer. A certain gentleman near Oxford would be very high ion my list.

I do hope to goodness that you're not going down this self-cert route for your school/college concert piano. That would be a mistake.

No bloomin' way. I have decided what I want and where I want it from. I'm still waiting for the financial green light (and reaping the grey hairs). There is no way on God's earth that I would play such a risky game with someone else's money.

MV

[joseph]

ok you probably want to look at a Chappell or a Welmar. Knight if you like it, but personally I don't.

Maybe you will find a Kawai or a Yamaha, but its unlikely. You should be able to get something decent on the open market for the money you have.

[mdw]

A certain gentleman near Oxford would be very high ion my list.

MV

I have no idea what dealer you are talking about BUT we had a customer in our area ring us 6 weeks ago who had bought a Kemble from a dealer in the Oxford area. No tuning included and when he had a problem 4 weeks after delivery he was told its not covered by the guarantee ( sticky notes FFS) and he should pay the local tuner to deal with it. Not quite the "centre of excellence" 10 year guarantee he was expecting, so be careful!

[Model V]

A certain gentleman near Oxford would be very high ion my list.

MV

I have no idea what dealer you are talking about BUT we had a customer in our area ring us 6 weeks ago who had bought a Kemble from a dealer in the Oxford area. No tuning included and when he had a problem 4 weeks after delivery he was told its not covered by the guarantee ( sticky notes FFS) and he should pay the local tuner to deal with it. Not quite the "centre of excellence" 10 year guarantee he was expecting, so be careful!

Absolutely not the same one. PG knows to whom I refer. Maybe this "dealer" should be named and shamed...obviously couched in non-libelous language...

[PianoGuy]

Just a thought ModelV....

Why not approach said dealer and explain that you're thinking of buying a grand of some considerable value in the near future, and ask if he can sell you an upright in the meantime which would be 100% redeemable against purchase price?

[PianoGuy]

It sounds to me like vernon, pianoguy, a440, etc are all reputable and will provide you with a good instrument at a sensible price, with great backup.

Not me!

I don't sell pianos, just tune 'em and sort out their problems!

[Kemble King]

£1500 on an upright is a pretty low budget. I think the main problem here is that the customer is skint. So no point sending brochures out boys.

I always refuse to sell to DSS

[Model V]

£1500 on an upright is a pretty low budget. I think the main problem here is that the customer is skint. So no point sending brochures out boys.

I always refuse to sell to DSS

On the contrary. I have rather a lot of thousands in my piano budget. The upright is a short term measure and I don't want to tie up too much. There's plenty around s/h for £1500.

Please clarify what you meant by the DSS comment.

[PianoGuy]

£1500 on an upright is a pretty low budget. I think the main problem here is that the customer is skint. So no point sending brochures out boys.

I always refuse to sell to DSS

That's a bit rude now, KK.

[Kemble King]

Aye but funny!!

[Model V]

Gordon,

I didn't think it especially funny.

MV

[mdw]

A certain gentleman near Oxford would be very high ion my list.

MV

I have no idea what dealer you are talking about BUT we had a customer in our area ring us 6 weeks ago who had bought a Kemble from a dealer in the Oxford area. No tuning included and when he had a problem 4 weeks after delivery he was told its not covered by the guarantee ( sticky notes FFS) and he should pay the local tuner to deal with it. Not quite the "centre of excellence" 10 year guarantee he was expecting, so be careful!

Absolutely not the same one. PG knows to whom I refer. Maybe this "dealer" should be named and shamed...obviously couched in non-libelous language...

I would love to name and shame but I didnt bother to find out which dealer, I tried hard not to laugh and told them they had been done and should ring Kembles. Never mind Im sure they saved loads of money buying it over the net!!!!

[Model V]

Caveat emptor

[Model V]

Just to bring you up to date:

Someone has kindly offered to look after a grand piano for us for a bit, so consequently we've splashed out on a fabulous C3. No need for the interim upright.

Amazing what DSS money will buy eh?

Cheers, and thanks for all the non-snide honest advice above.

MV.

[Barrie Heaton]

Just to bring you up to date:

Someone has kindly offered to look after a grand piano for us for a bit, so consequently we've splashed out on a fabulous C3. No need for the interim upright.


MV.

Enjoy your piano when you get it as I am sure the folk who are looking after it will

Barrie,

[Model V]

Just to bring you up to date:

Someone has kindly offered to look after a grand piano for us for a bit, so consequently we've splashed out on a fabulous C3. No need for the interim upright.


MV.

Enjoy your piano when you get it as I am sure the folk who are looking after it will

Barrie,

Fortunately the people in question are my employers so it's me that'll be enjoying it weekdays 0830-1800

MV

[Barrie Heaton]

Just to bring you up to date:

Someone has kindly offered to look after a grand piano for us for a bit, so consequently we've splashed out on a fabulous C3. No need for the interim upright.


MV.

Enjoy your piano when you get it as I am sure the folk who are looking after it will

Barrie,

Fortunately the people in question are my employers so it's me that'll be enjoying it weekdays 0830-1800

MV

Lest hope that the inland rev don't tax you on it as a perk of the job then

Barrie,

[Model V]

LOL!