Yamaha U1/U3 Silent system retro-fit?

[Mark Goodwin]

Hello
I have a customer who wants a Yamaha U3 but he wants to retro-fit the silent mechanism to it. Possibly a Piano Disc system. He also says that he requires some midi functionality. I have little knowledge of this field so was hoping somebody could help us out.

Who fits silent systems?
Do they have midi options or does he need Disklavier?
Any idea of general pricing?

Thanks for any input
Mark

[PianoGuy]

Barrie Caradine's yer man for Pianodisc systems, which are MIDI fitted so should fit the bill, although I believe also Gabor Bartos makes a retro fittable silent system without the auto playback capability. He's in your neck of the woods near Manchester :

Gabor Pianos
3, Ragley Close, Poynton, Cheshire SK12 1DW
Phone: 01625 871 092 Fax: 01625 630024 E-mail: info@gabor-pianos.co.uk

Hope this helps.

PG

[Grenache]

Hi Mark,

I've just bought a new U1 with the Silent SG option factory-fitted by Yamaha. It appears that Yamaha have two types of silent system, one which has only one voice (piano) and no midi, and is fitted to the B-series, and the other is the SG system which has 10 voices with MIDI in and out.

It's usually recommended to get a factory-fitted system, and post-manufacture third party systems usually invalidate the manufacturer's warranty.

The system on my piano has a "shank stopper" bar which is engaged using the middle pedal, and this stops the hammers striking the strings. This means the set-off is more than without it, which apparently makes the touch a little heavier. I didn't notice much difference playing the Yamahas with and without the shank stopper, but when I played the Kawais with and without, I found the Kawai much heavier, in fact too heavy for my liking.

Then the keys and pedals are fitted with sensors which connect to the silent system control box.

The box has two headphone sockets, MIDI in and out (so your customer could connect this to his PC or other MIDI instruments, for example), and AUX in and out, for connecting other audio devices, e.g. to play along with a CD recording or output to an external amplifier. It also has a USB connection for plugging in a USB memory stick to store & play tunes, though I've not experimented this far yet.

If he has an external device which can generate MIDI signals such as a PC, he can play this through the MIDI input of the piano.

The piano voice is sampled from a Yamaha Grand, though I must admit I prefer the actual accoustics of the actual piano rather than the MIDI voice. The harpsichord voice is extremely realistic, though, even down to the noise when the jacks return to their resting position.

The silent system electronics operate independently from the shank stopper, so you can have both the strings and MIDI voice sounding together - this will be an interesting challenge for the tuner in the future to make sure the strings are tuned to the same pitch as the MIDI - no chance of letting the pitch slip gradually!

When the shank stopper is engaged, the keyboard still has the same feel, and there's still some sound of the mechanics of the hammers working, though no strings sound. But I can play when the rest of the family want peace & quiet!

The manuals for the Yamaha silent systems are downloadable from here: http://www.yamaha.co.jp/manual/english/ ... code=piano

The one I have is the SG system.

Regarding price, I believe that the silent option adds about £800-900 to the new price. The warranty on the electronics is 1 year, so the used porices tend to be the same as the basic instrument.

I bought mine from Peter Smith Pianos in Paisley, though the piano I wanted (with the silent system) wasn't one they had in stock at that time, so I had a couple of months wait, but overall I'm happy with it.

Hope this helps.

Grenache

[Mark Goodwin]

EXCELLENT info,
Thanks gentlemen!


Mark

[Barrie Heaton]

Who fits silent systems?
Do they have midi options or does he need Disklavier?
Any idea of general pricing?

Thanks for any input
Mark

Gabor fits them both he his just putting out a new trade price list for the silent system which is a lot cheaper

The trade has been charging £1200.00 for a silent system but with the new prices I should be able to do them for £800.00 fitted in my area

Gabor is in Frankfurt at them moment but Jen is there

Barrie,

[Mark Goodwin]

Cool, thanks Barrie
How fast is the turnaround on that service usually?

[Barrie Heaton]

Cool, thanks Barrie
How fast is the turnaround on that service usually?

U1 U3 fit in a day small pianos can slow you down also depends on how good the regulating is before you start if its nice and even speeds the job up if it just MIDI you can fit in an Hour or so

Barrie,

[Mark Goodwin]

Another question... what is the method for preventing the hammers hitting the strings please? The customer isn't keen that it should feel like the practise pedal felt that is lowered in front of the strings (slight lack of response using that system).

The below photo doesn't really show it:
http://www.uk-piano.org/gabor/key_sensor.jpg

[mdw]

Another question... what is the method for preventing the hammers hitting the strings please? The customer isn't keen that it should feel like the practise pedal felt that is lowered in front of the strings (slight lack of response using that system).

You replace the damper slap rail with a pivoting one in the kit this then tilts backwards and the felt covered rear edge stops the hamers from hitting the string in the last 3-5 mm before they would have hit the string . That why the set off has to be adjusted to allow for the hammer to be caught even on a heavy blow without flexing the rail and hitting the string. Its the same method all the systems use.
Depends how worn the action is as to how much regulating you will need to set it up propperly. New piano = nice and easy.

[athomik]

Hi Mark,
The warranty on the electronics is 1 year, so the used porices tend to be the same as the basic instrument.
Grenache

With Yamaha, the piano has a 5 year warranty, the electronics have a 2 year warranty.

[obiwan]

Hi,

I was just about to post a new thread, and saw this one.

Slightly different question, but along the same lines...

I'm interested in purchasing a U1/U3 (possibly used, but haven't quite decided yet). - So I popped into my local piano showroom, to see what they'd got, to try a few models.

I was interested to discover that they had a used (1972) U1, with a retro fitted Technics Silent System for £2495. - I've really been keen on looking at the Silent Models since I live in a mid terrace. Both neighbours either side (and ourselves) all having young children - so don't want to unduly upset anyone by loud piano playing.

I wasn't aware technics did silent systems, so don't know whether this is a good buy, or I should steer clear. - The new Silent U1's U3's are outside my price range really..

Thanks for any advice in advance!

[mdw]

The technics system came in through woodchester when they existed. Pretty much the same spec as the Gabor system but with a well respected brand name on the front. I last fitted them 7 -8 years ago. However these were a load floating around ebay 4-6 months ago without instalation instructions. Never had any problems with them when I fitted them but as it could be 7-8 years old I would assume it adds nothing to the value of the piano unless they will give you a good guarantee for the electric bit.

[athomik]

Hi,
<snip>
I was interested to discover that they had a used (1972) U1, with a retro fitted Technics Silent System for &pound;2495. - I've really been keen on looking at the Silent Models since I live in a mid terrace. Both neighbours either side (and ourselves) all having young children - so don't want to unduly upset anyone by loud piano playing.

I wasn't aware technics did silent systems, so don't know whether this is a good buy, or I should steer clear. - The new Silent U1's U3's are outside my price range really..

Thanks for any advice in advance!

Since Technics haven't been producing keyboards or related equipment for some years, I would doubt that you would get much support if anything went wrong with the electronics, and certainly not under warranty. Even it you go for a secondhand silent piano, I would advise to go for a manufacturer who still produces silent systems, whether factory fitted or retrofit.

[mdw]

[quote="athomik

Since Technics haven't been producing keyboards or related equipment for some years, I would doubt that you would get much support if anything went wrong with the electronics, [/quote]

I suggest you buy any of these systems even from Kemble, Yamaha or Kawai on the basis that once it goes pop you bin the electrics. I doubt if any of the electrics can be repaired cost effectivly. Like most electrics you open the box , plug it in . If it doesnt work its under guarantee , if it does it works for many year then stops one day and is unrepairable. I dont deal with digital pianos but how many of them get repaired after year 1 or 2. My guess is almost nil.

[obiwan]

Thanks for your replies.

This kind of backs up what the shop was saying. - They didn't realise that it had a silent system fitted to it when they bought it, and said that was reflected in the price - being based on a regular U1 without the silent system (so I guess they meant that the electronics etc. were not guaranteed, in a round about way, without specifically saying that).

Still £2495 for a 1972 regular U1 seems a bit steep if you ask me, but might be wrong. (They didn't specify that it had been reconditioned at all)

Good advice about sticking to a manufacture of silent systems that still is producing them though. - I did try to find some info on the Technics system, but couldn't - so that did make me wonder. (And the shop didn't seem to know much either). - I also did wonder why someone would go to the trouble of retro fitting one of these systems into a piano and then selling it. (Noisy, unreliable perhaps?)

With it being imported from Japan, maybe I'll never know.

[Barrie Heaton]

Never had any problems with them when I fitted them but as it could be 7-8 years old I would assume it adds nothing to the value of the piano unless they will give you a good guarantee for the electric bit.

I have the same recurring problem with the Technics system on some clients pianos that is the prolongs click after a year or so if the player is a heavy player the prolong ends up with side play like a lose centre on a hammer and clicks

Barrie,

[mdw]

Had the odd click that was the front touch bedding in on new cheap pianos that allowed the key bottom to touch ( and tap ) on the top of the light beam tower after a few months. But that was the problem of cheap pianos rather than the system. My view with these systems is they all compromise the playing of the piano to a lesser degree. If you are that much of an anorak you wouldnt want one on your piano anyway. But for most normal people they provide a first class solution to a problem that would send them down the lesser route of a digtal piano. And the great bit is if you really dont get on with it rip it out and with a small bit of regulation you are back where you started.

Tip...... If you have a retro system put in make sure the damper slap rail thats removed is kept safe or screwed to the under side of the keybed so it can be put back later.

[athomik]

I suggest you buy any of these systems even from Kemble, Yamaha or Kawai on the basis that once it goes pop you bin the electrics. I doubt if any of the electrics can be repaired cost effectivly. Like most electrics you open the box , plug it in . If it doesnt work its under guarantee , if it does it works for many year then stops one day and is unrepairable. I dont deal with digital pianos but how many of them get repaired after year 1 or 2. My guess is almost nil.

A lot of electronic problems on silent & player pianos are just as cost effective to repair as on any other electronic product and modern electronics are so reliable that the vast majority of users, whether it's a silent piano or an electronic keyboard, will have replaced/scrapped their instuments long before they give up their ghost.

I don't know about other brands, but I do know that Yamaha can still support Hybrid (acoustic w. electronics) pianos going back almost 20 years although many "vintage" disklaviers have been happily playing away since those days without any problem. Parts are only just becoming unobtainable for Disklaviers models released in the late 1980's. The point I was making that it may be a bit of a gamble buying a secondhand silent piano when it is already obvious that there will never be any support if things go wrong.

[smallsharon]

If he has an external device which can generate MIDI signals such as a PC, he can play this through the MIDI input of the piano.

Hi Grenache, I would like to confirm whether you mean that if I connect the U1 silent piano to my PC, I would be able to select it's sound sample and do my own arrangement using music softwares such as Reason? How may this be done?

OR, do you mean that the U1 merely serves as a midi controller that generates midi signals without the sound?

[Grenache]

Hi Sharon,

I haven't got round to trying that out yet, just used it with headphones for silent practice.

The manual for the SG option on my U1 can be downloaded here. I think a different box of electronics is on the B series.
http://www2.yamaha.co.jp/manual/pdf/pia ... 8696D0.pdf

[athomik]

Regarding price, I believe that the silent option adds about £800-900 to the new price. The warranty on the electronics is 1 year, so the used porices tend to be the same as the basic instrument.

Just a quick clarification:
In the UK all electronic Yamaha instruments, inc. the electronics on Silent/Disklavier pianos carry a 2 year warranty.