Steinway model Z.. worth the trouble?

tempogen · Post by **tempogen** » 14 Jan 2009, 12:55

Hello!

I was very excited when i stumbled upon a Steinway piano in a friend's basement. It's an upright model Z, and i had no idea about it's manufacturing date or anything at the time. It was in bad shape regarding the casing. the "feet" looked like they were soaked at some point and the key cover had some paint on it. but when i opened it it was a different story. It seems to be perfect, and untouched, save for a broken hammer stem. I jotted down the serial number, and later i sent an email to Steinway, asking about the piano. they replied that it was manufactured in Hamburg in 1969, with a walnut dull finish and sold to so and so etc... it was a disappointment, since my friend said it was over a 120 years old.
So, I was wondering, given these facts, and that i would be able to "save" it from total decay for under a 1000GBP, and the fact that i know of no one that would be able to restore anything other than the casing - a carpenter could probably take care of that right? - is this thing worth it at all ?

I'd really appreciate any suggestions or comments

Thanks

Tamim ( Tripoli / Libya )

Pianomate · Post by **Pianomate** » 14 Jan 2009, 15:05

I would advise you get a piano technician to view it, and also a French Polisher /cabinet maker (a carpenter is someone who normally works in construction) if the case needs some work. I'm sure you can appreciate it's impossible to tell how much needs doing without examining it in detail.

I'm sure that there are piano technicians in Tripoli and I'm sure you have a Yellow Pages or similar.

Second hand Model Zs in good condition usually fetch about £4,000 - £9,000 so let that be a guide. Some of the cases do look a bit dated now with the sloping fronts and shaped side boards which isn't to everybody's tastes.

tempogen · Post by **tempogen** » 14 Jan 2009, 15:31

It would be wonderful if we have French cabinet makers or piano technicians, or indeed yellow pages!! I suppose i used the term carpenter broadly, there are some Egyptians working in workshops that seem to fit the description.

Alas i am quite sure that i am on my own here, Libyans aren't really big piano players...

Pianomate · Post by **Pianomate** » 14 Jan 2009, 15:49

I don't suppose there are that many pianos in Libya but if you look in the right place you will find someone. There will be hotels, embassies, colleges etc with pianos I'm sure. Find somewhere with a piano and ask who looks after it.

Surely you have some form of classified business directory etc?

A fine furniture maker or antiques restorer would be able to help, or at least point you in the right direction.

tempogen · Post by **tempogen** » 14 Jan 2009, 16:03

Indeed a music instrument dealer told me i should look for a guy who plays the piano in the biggest hotel we have here. Sure i thought, he may take after his piano, tune it and things like that, but really would he be able to restore my piano? and if he could, would he? I hate such half baked unprofessional arrangements, but it's not like i have another choice. we probably have some sort of directory, especially here in Tripoli - the capital - but it won't be nearly as thorough as the yellow pages, i'd have to cruise around looking for a store.

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 14 Jan 2009, 22:05

tempogen wrote:H I jotted down the serial number, and later i sent an email to Steinway, asking about the piano. they replied that it was manufactured in Hamburg in 1969, with a walnut dull finish and sold to so and so etc... it was a disappointment, since my friend said it was over a 120 years old.

A 1969 Model Z is a far better piano than an old Steinway of 120 years of age!

A lucky find!!

tempogen · Post by **tempogen** » 15 Jan 2009, 01:05

Interesting.. care to elaborate PianoGuy? what i've read about the model Z in particular is far from flattering, especially when compared with the K and V models...

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 15 Jan 2009, 08:21

Certainly!

Whilst a newer K or a V would be a better piano than the compact and rather ungainly looking Z, an *old* ( turn of the century) K or "Vertegrand" has a very quirky action which although beautifully made is a disaster to work on, and most are becoming very fragile now. The actual sound quality and feel of an older Steinway upright is really nothing special if observed objectively, and many contempories although lacking the badge and kudos are really much better. A slightly later K or V from the 1920s onwards however is likely to be a superb piano.

The Z is often clad in a modern style case which is not fashionable these days, but it means that Steinway ownership is affordable for many who couldn't stretch to the price asked for a larger traditionally styled model.

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 15 Jan 2009, 10:20

There's a couple of restored Ks on this page. Maybe they could offer you some advice?

http://www.forsyths.co.uk/steinway.htm

tempogen · Post by **tempogen** » 15 Jan 2009, 13:53

Thank you all. I decided to buy it and worry later. Openwood I took a look at the page you sent, I'll try to contact them for advice once I bring the monster home.
The casing on the piano is not so modern - no fancy curves if you know what i mean - but it's unremarkable. Just a casing, like a box or something, no engravings or carvings, similar - but not identical - to this 1 http://www.forsyths.co.uk/Rebuilt_Piano ... 403504.htm
I'll get a better look at it after i have it cleaned and polished.

Post by **vernon** » 15 Jan 2009, 21:20

tempogen
We've got a K in stock if you need any tips. I'm not familiar with the entrails of the Z tho'

tempogen · Post by **tempogen** » 16 Jan 2009, 07:36

Thanks Vernon, I might just take you up on that. If you know where to get some spare parts in Glasgow, that would be very useful, as my father is going there in February and i may accompany him.

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 16 Jan 2009, 09:08

Looking at that pic, that is exactly the 'modern' casework I was thinking of. Not so modern now I suppose, but not 'traditional' with toes and pillars.

The innards are completely conventional with a stock Renner action.

tempogen · Post by **tempogen** » 16 Jan 2009, 18:47

PianoGuy wrote: The innards are completely conventional with a stock Renner action.

In other words it's total crap?

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 16 Jan 2009, 21:40

Exactly the opposite!

Renner equipment is fitted to some of the finest pianos!

Post by **vernon** » 16 Jan 2009, 21:48

If you're coming to the UK in Feb, make a list of the bits you need and this forum will point you towards a suitable supplier who will send them on to you.
While you've not tuners and yellow Pages in Libya I bet they have postmen

tempogen · Post by **tempogen** » 17 Jan 2009, 00:04

PianoGuy, that's a relief! and yes vernon we have postmen, and a post office too! I'll probably take pictures and send them to you if i failed to find someone to check it for me. I think as long as they're not too many parts, and if i find a seller who accepts paypal, i could order them without even going to the UK.

tempogen · Post by **tempogen** » 17 Jan 2009, 21:16

My friend was supposed to come to Tripoli today, and we were going to have a coffee and agree on the price and transport of the piano from Benghazi. Sadly, when he was late I called his phone, and his son answered... My friend passed away after having a heart attack last night, at the age of 45. Due to the circumstances, i will have to postpone - if not cancel - the purchase of the piano.
Thank you all very much for your help and advice.

Best regards,

Tamim

Post by **vernon** » 17 Jan 2009, 22:23

That is very sad news

Pianomate · Post by **Pianomate** » 19 Jan 2009, 18:07

Sad.

At a later date, when the time is right, I would let the family know you are still interested. They will as likely as not be wondering what to do about the piano.

tempogen · Post by **tempogen** » 17 Feb 2009, 10:39

Hey guys,

I was contacted by the family and they asked me to come and pick up the piano. I had someone look at it. It has a mohogany layer - do they call that a shell? - that is peeling in several areas. the cabinet maker/painter, said that what he would do is just sand that whole layer off, and do a fresh coat of - something, shellac ? - i saw his work and it's really good. I wonder if this is a good idea? there is no way to restore the shell, or to get one with the same quality.

Help!!!

Pianomate · Post by **Pianomate** » 17 Feb 2009, 12:28

If the piano has become so damp as to raise the veneer (unless it's just near the bottom), the piano may be damaged by the damp internally.

I guess it's the veneer you mean. If you can email me a photo, I can advise better. I am more involved with the antique furniture restoration business than pianos specifically. The cabinet maker probably suggested removing it and replacing it with another layer of veneer. I would only do this as a last resort -if the original layer is too badly damaged. It's far better if you can manage without removing the original layer as the chances of getting a matching veneer are slim and you should keep the Steinway as original as possible. Often it can be stuck back satisfactorily. Often it works quite well by just laying a wet cloth over to saturat the lifting areas in water until the veneer is soaking wet for an hour or so. It then becomes very easy to work and form back into shape. The original glue should soften but you should also try and get some PVA wood glue under the veneer at the raised edges as far as you can get it before cramping back. Make sure no glue gets onto the surface of the wood (wipe any excess off). Then you can use G cramps and blocks and get it to stick back into place. Put a layer of greaseproof paper (cooking parchment) between the wood and the blocks and cramps to prevent sticking them to the piano as the glue dries. For uneven surfaces, put a piece of old blanket between the greaseproof paper and the clamp blocks. Cramp up VERY tightly and leave until completely dry. The veneer can be lightly sanded and repolished.

On another note - be careful not to damage any peeling veneers in transit.

It wouldn't work to remove the veneer and not replace it as the wood underneath is completely different.

Regarding the finish. The other guys on the forum may know better but I expect the finish on the Model Z was usually either a pre-catalysed lacquer (Nitrocellulose) or polyester rather than shellac. Shellac was rarely used by then as it is less durable. Nitrocellulose lacquer aerosols (available over the internet) are great for touching up spoilt areas. If it is polyester, then polyester resin kits are widely available over the internet if your cabinet maker is unable to obtain one locally. Be sure to get the correct lacquer and finish to match the rest.

You can easily identify shellac (French Polish) by testing a small area not visible (such as an area concealed for example the top edge of the bottom board above the pedals when removed from the piano. Methylated spirits will start to dissolve the finish and make it go sticky until it dries again. Other finishes will not.

tempogen · Post by **tempogen** » 19 Feb 2009, 08:33

Hi,
Thanks for the feedback Pianomate. The veneer is peeling only at the bottom as you said, and upon examining the inside i am quite sure that no real damage has been done. the problem is mainly the key cover. The entire board is blotched with different colored paints and dyes, which compels me to completely sand blast that part and replace the finish. what was proposed by the cabinet maker was to remove all the original finish - mahogany veneer according to him - and apply a coat of shellac that would resemble the original look. I finally decided against it and to give some thought to preserving the original finish, despite it's bad shape in several parts. I have someone in Hamburg to whom i'll send pictures of the piano, perhaps he will find some veneer + spare parts from the original factory....
I'll be moving the piano today as i have finally purchased it for an agreeable price, and it'll be shipped to Tripoli where i plan to have it restored.
I'll be needing your advise as soon as it settles in and especially on that bit about restoring the veneer. i hope it won't be too much of a bother Pianomate.

Ciao

Pianomate · Post by **Pianomate** » 19 Feb 2009, 19:35

Where the finish has been damaged and blotched, Remove the fall (keyboard lid). Take hinge off and Use paint strippper (Nitromors) on the veneer to remove the old lacquer. Wipe down, allow to dry, sand with grade 400 wet and dry paper (dry), then use 600 grade, dust off and you are ready to apply a new finish.

If you require new veneer, it is quite easy to get sent by mail as it's light (usually comes to me packed in a card poster tube). Make sure you get the correct one as there's different grains and effects. Applying veneer is, however quite a skill and not to be undertaken lighty!

When you say sand blast I presume you mean just sandpaper? (sand blasting is something you do to remove rust from steelwork). An easy way to remove veneer is to put a damp flannel over the surface and iron as you would clothing. The hot moisture will soften the veneer glue and allow you to scrape the veneer off. Be careful not to overheat the wood underneath or it can warp.

I'll try and send a photo showing how to re-attach of loose veneer.

tempogen · Post by **tempogen** » 20 Feb 2009, 18:51

Yes sanding.. although i like DIY projects, however i'm guessing that i should really leave this to a professional - which of course is a mythical creature. The Steinway factory in Hamburg said that they do not manufacture the model anymore - duh - and therefore they do not have compatible spare parts.does that make sense to anyone? I think i will get my hands dirty once i go back to Tripoli, so i would really appreciate all the tips you could give me. regarding the veneer, would sending a photo to an online vendor be sufficient to get a close match?
Thank you very much..

tempogen · Post by **tempogen** » 10 Mar 2009, 15:54

well finally got it here.. here are the pictures of the enormous task i have ahead of me :

enjoy....

Pianomate · Post by **Pianomate** » 10 Mar 2009, 18:40

You don't say......... I hope you didn't pay too much for it.

I certainly would not do anything on it before getting hold of someone to check it as in that condition, it may have a terminal fault and it would be a waste of time spending much effort or money on it if that were the case. You may also find that the cost of the parts alone will be very high, especially if it needs restringing.

Contrary to what you said earlier, it does appear to have suffered internally from the damp, and not just at the bottom. More than one hammer shaft has split. You can see that the cover of the hammer rail has come unstuck from the damp. If this was in the UK, in that condition I expect it would just be taken apart for spares as it needs a complete rebuild. If it wasn't for the fact it was a Steinway it would have been chopped up for firewood.

You certainly have a mammoth task. If you can't find a technician, members on the forum will guide you through the stages.

I wouldn't even think about restoring the case until the internals are OK. In such a distressed condition I would be tempted to sand and fill the woodwork on the case and have it sprayed with black furniture lacquer to hide what's underneath (car body shop would do this if you are stuck).

Did the keys all work before it was moved or do they stick together in places?

tempogen · Post by **tempogen** » 10 Mar 2009, 19:15

Heh heh not very optimistic eh?

well, what i paid was the equivalent to 542 GBP, so it was a risk i was willing to take.

I was surprised when i looked thoroughly, and it appears that i was overoptimistic. The keys were moving and the piano actually speaks when i press one, so that at least gave me hope...

The hammers... i only saw the broken ones on the left, and didn't realize the extent of the damage.

Assuming i want to get started tomorrow, what's step number 1?

Also, it's clear that i at least need some hammers and shafts, so where can i get them?

Thanks all, and let's try and have fun with this

Pianomate · Post by **Pianomate** » 10 Mar 2009, 19:24

I'm afraid so. That's at least 5x what I would have expected to pay. It's a pity you didn't take some pictures beforehand as suggested.

Take the action out of the piano (undo the brass finger wheels which hold it in place, tilt it forwards and lift it out) Stand it on a table but be careful not to knock it as the parts are fragile.

David B · Post by **David B** » 11 Mar 2009, 09:55

Ye gods

If the serial number (and the style) didn't confirm it as 1969, I would have gone with your friends estimate of 120 years old!

Good luck in your project. You're a braver man than I.......

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 11 Mar 2009, 22:00

tempogen wrote: Assuming i want to get started tomorrow, what's step number 1?
;

Step 1 Box of swan vesters

Photos don't tell all the story you need to take a close look at the soundboard and bridges look like its been in a very damp place then dried out too fast

this will turn out to be very expensive project and at the end of the day not a great piano as they was not fantastic when new

Barrie,

tempogen · Post by **tempogen** » 11 Mar 2009, 23:53

you're probably right, xcept for the expensive part, because i wont let it!

I'll do a step by step post when i start..

tempogen · Post by **tempogen** » 12 Mar 2009, 12:26

Fresh out of the piano... Plenty of stuff to do

also what's the name of these pad thingies :

Chaka, when the walls fell...

joseph · Post by **joseph** » 12 Mar 2009, 17:11

looks to me like the piano needs a new action, re strung, re felted, new tuning plank (well, it the piano looks water damaged to be honest), re veneered, soundboard repaired or replaced......

you know, I don't really think this is going to be worth it. I remember I had the chance of a steinway style 2 grand, which is 7 feet 1 (not one they make any more) but it had a crack in the rim, needed new soundboard and tuning plank, needed the action replaced. The crack in the rim really put me off, because it had obviously been dropped.

Hmmmm (scratches head and sighs).

Pianomate · Post by **Pianomate** » 12 Mar 2009, 21:05

If you're going to tackle it, consider it a labour of love only! It would be an uphill struggle and you would never add sufficient value to recoup your time and expense.

However for an beginner and an amateur, you're not in danger of spoiling a good piano by tinkering!

However I do appreciate that where you live, pianos are scarce.

tempogen · Post by **tempogen** » 12 Mar 2009, 21:28

hello,

Pianomate, according to everyone, this piano is already ruined, so even though i am an amateur beginner, there is no chance that i could ruin it more! uphill struggle indeed....

But, perhaps it's naive, but i believe that i can transform this heap into a musical instrument.

From my inspection, this is what i need so far :

Full set of hammers and dampers ( i wanted to replace the broken ones only at first, but i think you will agree that they are too old and worn)
18 hammer shafts (shanks)
1 jack + spring
Full set of bridle straps
Damper springs
8 backhead felts
1 hammer rail cloth

The rest is mainly handiwork and some generic screws i can get here.

Btw pianomate, there are some pianos here. Albeit they are few, and not Steinway! Keyboards are way more common...
Let's just say, i'm a romantic, and i couldn't let this once magnificent machine just decay in a warehouse..

tempogen · Post by **tempogen** » 12 Mar 2009, 21:54

The humanity....

Pianomate · Post by **Pianomate** » 12 Mar 2009, 21:58

Do all the keys move freely?

Take them off, give them a good clean and clean underneath (but be careful not to suck up any rail punchings with the vac!) Are the pins on which they sit rusty or shiny?

tempogen · Post by **tempogen** » 12 Mar 2009, 22:24

Didn't get to the keys yet, i'm concentrating on the m.. i mean action

I'll let you know as soon as i get started with it.

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 13 Mar 2009, 18:43

Zoomi in on this area you will find that you need new butts as well, as the action will need re centring

tempogen · Post by **tempogen** » 13 Mar 2009, 21:11

Well recentering will come before rebutting

today i started removing the note sets. so i finally started getting my hands dirty!
my plan is to keep the note sets in their current state until i get the spare parts i need. of course i numbered them and tied each set together with a rubber band. in the meantime i'll remove the rusty parts and repair the rail.

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 13 Mar 2009, 23:30

To keep cost down you can get generic parts from China Butts dampers and shanks instead of Renner the hammers from Able

Barrie,

tempogen · Post by **tempogen** » 14 Mar 2009, 19:57

Thanks, i think that's not such a bad idea.. There are some auctioned on ebay - chinese hammers that is - does anyone know anything about them :

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 2759.l1259

It would help alot if i could get the hammers at that price... however i'm not sure what kind of effect they have on the sound, if any, and if they are the right size, bored at the right angle etc...

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 14 Mar 2009, 21:45

Na Hammers and string you spend Butts, whippens and dampers you can save

Also try some of the US tuners they quite often replace all the parts and just keep the beam rail so what they are getting shut of may be better than what is on your piano

Barrie,

Pianomate · Post by **Pianomate** » 15 Mar 2009, 00:03

Wouldn't touch any of that Chinese stuff ever!

tempogen · Post by **tempogen** » 15 Mar 2009, 00:16

figured as much...
Barrie, it's a daring idea.. ok off to the search engines!

I wonder if there's a Model z manufactured in the us...

Also this is a bit premature, but what do you think about peel and stick natural veneer for the casing finish??

Pianomate · Post by **Pianomate** » 15 Mar 2009, 09:18

I presume you are meaning the self adhesive veneer?

Wouldn't touch it. No self adhesive glue has any longevity. Not that hard to attach traditional veneer if prepared and done properly.

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 15 Mar 2009, 13:51

Pianomate wrote:Wouldn't touch any of that Chinese stuff ever!

Nether would I, but as he is not a tech and is trying to keep cost down any work on that piano will only improve it.

I do agree on the peel and stick veneer no good on the round bits at all.

tempogen the best approach for the removable parts is a big bag and a vacuum cleaner makes a nice vacuum press. Masking tape on the back veneer use very viscose PVA on the veneer let it soak in and normal on the case, put in the bag and suck out all the air leave over night any problem bits use an iron

Barrie,

tempogen · Post by **tempogen** » 17 Mar 2009, 11:11

Hello all.
Happy St Patrick's day!

So, I made an order with the following:

18 Upright Piano Hammer Shanks 18 hammer shanks
Full set of standard Piano Bridle Straps
Hammer Rail Cloth for upright piano
Green Spring Rail Felt Spring Rail Felt
10 upright damper springs
Full set of assorted keyboard punchings

And asked them to add backcheck felts if they have them...

I know it doesn't begin to cover the missing bits, but what do you think?

Also check these :

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... gory=64431

Are they of any use? I was contemplating filing the old hammers - those of which that are not so damaged - and somehow replacing the other 1s.

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 17 Mar 2009, 14:56

tempogen wrote: Are they of any use? I was contemplating filing the old hammers - those of which that are not so damaged - and somehow replacing the other 1s.

Wrong type of but and hammer is too light, wast of money

you should have order a full set of shanks for what they cost as you will need them

Barrie,