Advice needed

[pdossantos]

Hi guys,

I have a question, I currently own a Yamaha GC1 silent, I really enjoy it but I sometimes (depends my mood) find it a bit thin in the treble.
I have visited my dealer and played a Yamaha C2 Silent (build 2006) it has never been sold and it played like a gem.
My question is as followed, it it worth 8000 euro to upgrade to a C2, or is the sound difference in the treble minor. The bass is obviously stronger on the C2 but the GC1 is not letting me down there, more in the treble.

I would really appreciate your feedback

regards
Patrick

[chrisvenables]

Hi Patrick

As you say the GC1 is thin in the treble- only sometimes and depending on your mood and you are happy with the bass on your GC1, then definitely don't spend 8,000 euros. Usually there is not a massive difference in the treble on a GC1 and C2, but there is a huge difference in the bass. It can also depend on how someone interprets the word 'thin' - not very loud? not very true? not much sustain?
So, consider the following:
1. Maybe the acoustic in your room is not complimenting your GC1 treble, and, at the dealer's showroom the C2 piano is in a room with an acoustic that does compliment the treble more than the bass. Things like carpets, curtains and soft furnishings can make a piano sound quite different to a piano in a room with a hard wooden floor with lots of sound reflective surfaces. Is the acoustic of your room much different to that of the piano showroom? It's also a fact that the position of the piano in a room can make a big difference to the tonal quality - if the bass end of the piano is close to a wall, then it will produce a bigger bass and have more projection than if it were in the middle of a room, or with the treble end going into a corner. Look at point 2 next before experimenting with having your piano in a different position in the room.
2. Maybe your GC1 needs tuning and needs toning in the treble, either by hardening the hammers and/or reshaping them so that you have a perfect striking point hitting the strings. This can improve the tonal quality immensely.
Ask a good technician in your area to check your piano first and ask him if he thinks a tune, tone and regulate would be the answer.

It's a lot cheaper than 8,000 euros!

[pdossantos]

Hi Chris , thanks for your reply.

When I mean thin I mean it is hard and sharp, high in frequency, not with a full body, a little bit unpleasant.
My room has laminate flooring (very lively) so I already bought a big thick rug under the piano, this improved it in some degree (Before it was impossible to play forte)
I also had it voiced so that the piercing notes dissapeared but still it sounds a bit shrill. My GC1 is indead next to the wall with it longest side (right side) so this is probably why the bass is so good. Only the lowest ocave lacks a bit but my main "irritation /dislike" is realy in the treble! It is start by the A B C second octave above the central C, just before the spot were the are no more dampers, then it is ok again and it sings more there. Not ideal but ok.
The C2 was in a carpeted room, it sounded fuller and warmer, but it was terribly out of tune so I couldn't really hear it's sound properly. He said that the C2 had better soundboard, better hammers better action bigger scale so better sound.....
The dealer will move it to a laminate flooring room next week, but it is still a showroom not my living room I know this is why I am hesistant and posted my question. I have a friend who regrets her upgrade from C1 to Estonia 168 so I have learned a valuable lesson from her.
I am supposted to try out the C2 in the different showroom floor next week.

I live in the Netherlands and dealers do not do much prep so it is a bit out of the box and then fine tune it at the client's home. When I asked the tuner to voice it a bit he first said that every piano has it's sound and one should not try to alter it. I explained him I was not happy with how it sounded and only on his second visit he voiced it a little bit in the treble, this was 6 months ago. I have read your website many times and about preparation how it makes all the difference. So you really think the upgrade is not worth it? Is this thin not singing treble just the Yamaha sound everybody talks about?

Thanks again for your time, I really appreciate it.
Patrick

[Openwood]

Two friends of mine have C1s and the treble is not nearly as bad as you describe, so I don't think it's an unavoidable 'Yamaha sound'. If your dealer doesn't do much preparation that might explain the unpleasant tone. I realise there is a tendency to see preparation as the 'Holy Grail' which can cure all ills, and whilst I think that is incorrect, I certainly wouldn't want to live with a Yamaha that came straight out the box.

My teacher has a C2 and there is a significant difference in tone at the bottom end when compared to those C1s but not (In my opinion) at the treble end. It does sound like a voicing issue.

It might be worth looking at used pianos from a good dealer; you won't get all the 'teething problems' of a new instrument and you might well get a bigger instrument for the same price as a new C2. I don't know what makes are available in the Netherlands (you're lucky living there, so much nicer than the toilet England has become) but maybe you could look at makes other than Yamaha; there are many more fish in the sea!

I have a Yamaha C3 at home and I wouldn't want to go back to anything smaller than 6ft. If you have the space I would strongly recommend going for something bigger than a C2. Incidentally, when my C3 was new I had some tonal problems in the exactly the place you describe on your piano and it took two different tuners to work on it before I was happy. Now I love it and wouldn't exchange it in a hurry (unless it was for a really nice Brodmann, Bluthner or Steinway ).

[chrisvenables]

I was not happy with how it sounded and only on his second visit he voiced it a little bit in the treble, this was 6 months ago. I have read your website many times and about preparation how it makes all the difference. So you really think the upgrade is not worth it? Is this thin not singing treble just the Yamaha sound everybody talks about?

Thanks for the further information. Forget my comments about hardening the hammers then, just ask the technician to come back and check the strike point on the string and check that the hammer head is perfectly shaped. Don't just voice it a little, but a lot - he can do one note, you listen and tell him when you think it's right. Then he does an arpeggio as a further check, then all of the offending notes. Usually the very top octave needs to be as hard as possible though. If he doesn't want to do the work, then find a technician who specialises in toning - some tuners don't want to get involved with toning issues.

Upgrades are subjective, it depends on how much you value 8,000 euros in relation to improving the tone of your piano. I agree with Openwood that a longer piano (of the same make) produces a better everything - if you don't have the space, remember that Yamaha models such as C1 and C2M are better than the C1L, C2L, in the treble as they have an improved treble bridge.

Good luck!

[pdossantos]

Hi guys,

Thanks for both of your feedback.
I went to the dealer again today and had a play on the GC1 the C2M and C3M. I have come to the conclusion that the big jump upwards is the C3.
The sound is a different ballpark then the other 2, so is the price tag I do think that if I upgrade the C3 is probably the way to go, maybe only a young second hand one. Don't know about the availability for a C3 with silent system though....

I called my tech today and explained him what is on my mind and what I have been doing. He said to not make any decisions untill he comes around to tune it and voice it again. He says my GC1 has temperament but not uncurable so I will wait for that.
The C2 on offer is a C2L so that makes me think if that is a contender at all. I will play it next friday at the dealer and pay good attention.


Thanks again for your help and to put my mind in perspective. I will keep you both updated. Fingers crossed that the GC1 will get the prep it deserves. I do like my piano so it would be best to keep it....

Patrick

[Openwood]

I do like my piano so it would be best to keep it....

Hear, hear! That's the absolute Golden Rule in my book; The best piano in the world is the one you like the best.