I know I will get slated but what's best way to buy online

brianpp · Post by **brianpp** » 12 Feb 2009, 02:59

Hi

Been reading this forum for past week or so but this is my first post.

I need to buy a piano for my daughter(9) who has been learning for 5 months. Until now on a 20 year old digital Clavinova (still a great keyboard but I think she needs the feel of the real thing). In the past I was a grade 8++ player but alas hardly touched it for past 15 years. So I want something that will get me started again - happy to upgrade in a few years if I catch the bug again. Wife wants something 'small' to fit a specific area and doesn't like the traditional piano look -which basically rules out just about everything!

Ok, so the outcome is a Yamaha P114MG. I tried one at the local dealer (a yamaha dealer with a total of one yamaha piano in showroom!) which sounded fine. They showed a complete disinterest and quoted list price (£4199). Even Chappell of Bond street with beat that by £500.

So to my dilemma. With work and other committments I just cannot get to a dealer any time soon (I'm in NE Scotland). I've read at length the valuable insights from the experts here about trying the instrument but its just not an option right now. I can get the piano for £3669 delivered from Chappell or £500 cheaper from a few online dealers (a few with good comments on here) - but I take on board all the comments about dealers *maybe* not preparing online deals as well as they could.

So, what do I do? Like everyone else I want a decent deal (and that is not list price!!) but am not looking for the cheapest deal at expense on quality. Am I safer with Chappell (being Yamaha owned) or is that wrong or too cautious.

Thanks

Post by **vernon** » 12 Feb 2009, 12:50

As you are in NE Scotland you must be near us in Inverness so give us a ring and you won't be left to the vagaries of internet buying but can see the real thing, get proper preparation and technical service.

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 12 Feb 2009, 15:03

I thought Vernon would respond to your post, otherwise I was also going to suggest that you get in touch with him. I'm positive you'll find buying from a good dealer like him infinitely better in every respect than purchasing online. With some things internet shopping works; with pianos I don't believe it does. You may pay more by purchasing 'offline' (not much more actually) but the piano you get will be far more carefully prepared, with better and quicker after-sales support if you need it.

ennjaydee · Post by **ennjaydee** » 12 Feb 2009, 15:36

As every piano is different I would strongy recommend finding the actual one you like at a reputable dealer, where you will get support, advice and after sales backup. No two P114s will be identical and could even be quite different depending upon the care taken in preparation. Check on-line pricing for sure, but then add on the value of having a dealer nearby, with stock, ability to try, technical advice, pre-sales preparation, after sales support and ease of warranty work etc then use that as a reasonable basis for discussion. We need reputable dealers long term.

I'm not a dealer by the way - but it's not a two-penny digital device we are talking about on this forum

ennjaydee · Post by **ennjaydee** » 12 Feb 2009, 16:04

And then ... if the dealer you tried has only one piano, the P114, it may be worth trying some other options. You may find something you like better for similar money (or you'll confirm the P114 as right). Kemble are well worth a try and offer a variety of finishes. A marginally taller, 121cm for example, gives a richer fuller sound which may further encourage you and delay the need for a subsequent upgrade, costing less longer term.

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 12 Feb 2009, 19:47

Since your daughter has been only been learning for 5 months, its the pretty box with strings from the discounters as she would not notice the difference between a well prepared piano and a bad prepared piano, so go for the discount then get a good tuner to look after it as you get back into playing you can upgrade or get the piano up to speed.

Quite a few dealers have a price promise so you can work them However, the 3 main ones in the south of England may find the cost of transport restrictive on the deal they can offer so it may be the 2 in the North of England and the one in Scotland but don't dismiss your local dealer they may not be able to match but they may give a free tuning and stool which can add to a tidy sum if you live in the sticks or should that be the heather.

Barrie,

markymark · Post by **markymark** » 13 Feb 2009, 00:24

ennjaydee wrote:I'm not a dealer by the way - but it's not a two-penny digital device we are talking about on this forum

I don't think anyone talks about "digital devices" on any of these forums, ennjaydee, two-penny or other!

Anyway, even when buying digital, buying online "blind" is not advisable either! You need to be sure that it's the one you really want even if you have tried it somewhere else as returning the instrument is an expensive and bothersome task. This goes a hundred times over for acoustics. From a cynical buyer's perspective, seeing the instrument before you buy it adds to it something that some local retailers need - and that's accoutability. Not all local dealers have the integrity that vernon has for example and seeing and hearing the instrument, seeing the casework, quality checking... all means a lot and adds some personal peace of mind to you as a buyer. You're putting a lot of trust in an online dealer by buying from them. So much can go wrong with an acoustic too during the settling-in period and you need a good customer service follow up from a local dealer. Again, its the accountability issue, isn't it. You won't get any of this from distance sales or online dealers.

Someone has already mentioned the variance of sound and touch from pianos that share the same model name. I remember buying my new acoustic a couple of years ago and it can be nightmare when you have the instruments sitting in front of you, never mind getting the delivery and then deciding whether or not you like it.

You could end up with something decent but it can go the other way - can you literally afford to risk it?

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 13 Feb 2009, 09:55

The *only* safe way to buy a piano online:

1) Look for the make and model that you want and find it at the best discount.
2) Pay for it on a credit card
3) Email dealer to state that you want delivery delayed until you've inspected it.
4) Arrange to see the piano (NB This can be a journey of a few hundred miles. Thousands if the b****er is till in Japan, China or Indonesia at the time of ordering)
5) Go to see the piano with a tame piano technician at hand.
5) Get tech to inspect the piano and instruct dealer to prep as necessary.
6) Once you're happy, make a note of the serial number and arrange delivery.

Simple.

athomik · Post by **athomik** » 13 Feb 2009, 10:34

PianoGuy makes some good points, but I would have one reservation when buying online. If you get the piano delivered (300 miles from the shop) and you do get problems which should be fixed under warranty, the dealer won't send his technician on a 600 mile round trip to have a look. Which means between you and the dealer, you'll have to find a decent technician locally, and then you have to get the dealer to agree to pay for the work - both of which can be a bit problematic at times.

Of course, if you don't encounter any problems in the warranty period, you've got yourself a bargain (provided your 600 miles round trip to see the piano before delivery, taking the day off for the trip and hiring a technician to inspect the piano doesn't cost you more than you saved by not buying locally

)

brianpp · Post by **brianpp** » 13 Feb 2009, 17:43

Thanks for all the replies.

I believe I am now convinced that buying 'blind' online may be a bad idea. I may just need to put it off for a month or so until I can travel to a 'non-local' dealer but will that not just give me the same support problems since its not local?

Here's my problem. Without giving too much away

I am located in a certain NE Scotland 'granite' city. The local yamaha dealer (who apparently is 'passionate' about pianos!!) appeared less so when I visited them a couple of times. As mentioned before they had one single yamaha. So although I get all the advice about trying the specific piano, thats maybe ok if you have a local dealr who actually stocks any.

My other problem... it appears my wife doesn't like a piano to look like a piano (in the traditional sence anyway). She doesn't like "the ones with the legs at the front"

Anyway, that appears to restrict it to Yamaha P114MG, Kawai K-15 or Kemble Cambridge 12

So, how does the Kawai and Kemble compare to the Yamaha. I read the Kemble is basically a P114 but looking at it, the cabinet is smaller. There is a, by all accounts, good local Kawai/Kemble dealer I am going to try.

Failing that, Inverness isn't so far away

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 13 Feb 2009, 19:52

Which way and what you decide buy is up to you.do it before April as Yams are going up by 15% to the trade that will make a 25% increase this year so far

About 70% of new Yamaha pianos are sold buy just a few retailers in the UK we are taking less that five Most of the Yamaha pianos sold by them are over the phone or the net and to clients who are more than 100 miles away. They all have a well established network of Tuners to provide backup as problem do crop up even with the best prepared pianos seen or unseen.

However, if you are a reasonable player then its better to sit in front of the piano when possible but if you are just buying for the kids and the kids are just starting off then take the savings

Barrie,

Post by **vernon** » 13 Feb 2009, 20:27

Brian
I hate to say this, but if Inverness is too far away from this mysterious "Granite City"of yours for you to try our display of pianos in Inverness, then I suggest you try our good friend Gordon Bell Pianos who inhabits a Granite City with an array of Kembles, Kawais etc.(tel 01224 658584)
He will attend to your wants though not with quite the superlative service we offer.However, he carries our commendation.
Were you to decide to avail yourself of our services from Inverness, he will be forcefully instructed to give you our full after sales service, though a dram or two(or three) may pass hands.
What about the Pearl River 125(Yamaha?)
vernon

chrisvenables · Post by **chrisvenables** » 16 Feb 2009, 11:19

I agree with PianoGuy's advice, but a word of caution regarding payment. DON'T pay in full at the time of order, even by credit card, unless the dealer can confirm the serial number of the piano and give you a definite delivery date. It's a fact that at the moment Yamaha UK have low stock levels and some online dealers don't have the stock either - the default delivery estimate they quote on their websites may say 'usually ships within 2/3 days' but they're often talking about smaller, faster selling items such as keyboards, guitars etc, not pianos. Speak to them at length to get an idea of whether they sound experienced about the piano they're selling you and whether you like their attitude. Do they publish their address on their website? Have they got plenty of time to talk to you? Can they bespoke prepare the piano for you? How long have they been selling pianos? You could be waiting 2 or 3 months for certain Yamaha models so definite delivery dates and a serial number are a must. If you go with that dealer, pay a deposit and the balance only when a delivery date is confirmed.
A personal visit is always the safest way to buy - you'll probably only buy a new piano once (if it's a Yamaha!) so take the time off work and make a day of it. You won't be disappointed. Your local dealer may be prepared to discount it if you negotiate nicely.. If not, travel - there are plenty of cheap flights around and the saving by buying at a discount should save you far more than the cost of the flight, plus you should be able to see the full range of Yamaha models. Regarding which model, try and persuade your wife to go for a taller model with legs - anything under 121cms high won't have a good bass or dynamic range - your daughter may not notice the shortcomings of a 114cm model now, but as she progresses, she will wish she had a 121. In your price range, the Yamaha B3 is the best buy, cheaper than a 114 and whatever people say about laminated soundboards, (Yamaha used it in their old Japanese black C108 for years and they still sound astonishing for their size) the B3 is a much better piano than a 114 or some 30 year old second hand import. If you decide to spend more, then a P121G with a Bavarian spruce soundboard is an excellent choice. Re the price increase - Yamaha told me it would be 15% on the 1st March, having said that, their increase on 1st January didn't really happen until mid January...

brianpp · Post by **brianpp** » 18 Feb 2009, 22:48

Thanks very much for the feedback guys.

I went to the local Kemble dealer and tried a Kemble Cambridge then 'made the mistake!!!' of trying a Conservatoire. Couldn't believe the difference in sound quality. The sound just opened up so much on the Conservatoire. I'm sure its the same for Yamahas. So I'm going to do some travelling around and try out as much as I can before deciding.

Thanks
Brian

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 19 Feb 2009, 20:44

brianpp wrote:Thanks very much for the feedback guys.

I went to the local Kemble dealer and tried a Kemble Cambridge then 'made the mistake!!!' of trying a Conservatoire. Couldn't believe the difference in sound quality. The sound just opened up so much on the Conservatoire. I'm sure its the same for Yamahas. So I'm going to do some travelling around and try out as much as I can before deciding.

Thanks
Brian

That why we all say if you can play you need to play it You can line 5 of the same make and model and all 5 will have a different sound, so take note of the serial number of the one you like. let the dealer know that you have taken it as well

Barrie,

Post by **vernon** » 19 Feb 2009, 21:21

Have a look out in the wide world at other makes apart from the jingly jangly Yamahas.
Every one of them is like the last sausage off a string.
Try everything and take what you like.
Be aware that even on a Forum such as this there are interested parties and several loonies

markymark · Post by **markymark** » 19 Feb 2009, 23:02

brianpp wrote:I went to the local Kemble dealer and tried a Kemble Cambridge then 'made the mistake!!!' of trying a Conservatoire. Couldn't believe the difference in sound quality. The sound just opened up so much on the Conservatoire. I'm sure its the same for Yamahas. So I'm going to do some travelling around and try out as much as I can before deciding.

Don't base your decision on the brand of the piano too much! Kembles are often overshadowed by Yamaha just because of the name. When I bought my Yamaha, one regret I had was not being able to try out a Kemble because they're just not seen much in my part of the world.

However, if you like the touch and sound of the piano, it doesn't matter if it has "Lada" stamped across the top of the keyboard, buy it!

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 19 Feb 2009, 23:05

Every one of them is like the last sausage off a string

Saucer of milk and a table for one, please waiter

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 20 Feb 2009, 09:43

vernon wrote:Have a look out in the wide world at other makes apart from the jingly jangly Yamahas.
Every one of them is like the last sausage off a string.
Try everything and take what you like.
Be aware that even on a Forum such as this there are interested parties and several loonies

Kaspack friznit fawwwaaaang ka SPING.....
.... I don't see that uniformity is a bad thing.

Personally I prefer my sausages with three tuning forks branded into the skin rather than those with than a KK..... No matter how identical those sausages, one will almost certainly have more pork and less filler, so take the best bit of Vernon's advice above and taste them all before committing one to the barbecue. (Please note that I don't eat budget range products which barely have a meat content. I'd rather have a cheese sandwich).

As for Yamaha prices, they're only doing what they should have done years ago, and that is fall into line with other prestige makers.
Since that price rise is largely to do with ¥ - £ exchange, there's nothing we can do about it. No doubt if the £ suddenly became stronger (unlikely with pisspoor interest rates and zero manufacturing industry) obviously Yamaha would drop their prices*, but as I understand it, rrp for a U1 is north of 7k, a C3 around 22k and a CF111S nearly as much as the S&S D that it so nearly rivals at 101k. The humble b1 is just shy of 3k and is now uncompetitive. Laminated soundboard or not, it sounds lifeless and there are better offerings at the same price from China. Kemble rises are to do with € - £ exchange rates which are also lamentable, although seeing as the labour rate should be UK related I can suspect that there's a bit of opportunism creeping in, and the need to keep rises in line with Yamaha. Kawai's prices (and everybody elses because as I said, we have no manufacturing capability) will all rise for similar reasons. Everything we buy in the UK is imported.

Pip pip.
PG

*pigs taxiing down the runway.......

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 20 Feb 2009, 16:02

a C3 around 22k

I realise that the rrp is never the actually selling price but I'm more pleased than ever that I got my C3 two years ago for 9.5K. I can't see that happening again anytime soon.

chrisvenables · Post by **chrisvenables** » 21 Feb 2009, 11:35

Glynn Morris wrote: I have tuned many Kembles and Yamaha's. I believe the Kemble to be far superior and better finished than most Yamaha's.

-
Really? Isn't every Kemble upright made with a Yamaha iron frame, Yamaha action components and keys, made by Yamaha machines, overseen by Yamaha trained staff, built in the same Yamaha owned factory in Milton Keynes and by the same staff that make the UK built Yamahas? The Kemble grand is nothing more, nothing less, than a Yamaha C2 with a different badge. It's a shame the public (and some people in the trade) have been led to believe Kemble and Yamaha are quite different products when, underneath the shiny exterior there is almost no difference at all. Also a shame Kemble have a label on the action stating 'Kemble Action' - it looks very much like a Yamaha to me! I sold Kemble alongside Yamaha for over 20 years and as the 'English' Kembles were eventually superseded by the improved Yamaha frames and actions, Kemble became just a duplication of the Yamaha stock. I don't know whether the Kemble 121 series in the last 2 or 3 years has changed its back design, but they certainly didn't have the tone collectors found in the equivalent Yamaha 121/U1 series. So, theoretically, the Yamaha should have the edge on that size piano.
Yamaha are successful , apart from their superb designs, high quality components and build quality, mainly because they are a mass producer and therefore have the economies of scale most other quality manufacturers envy. So their products are incredibly good value. Having not only two brand names (which cleverly gives Yamaha Corporation twice the exposure on a dealer's shop floor and no room for anything else) as an example of just one Yamaha model,, Yamaha can use one piano design, say a U1, in a variety of guises: Yamaha P121, PX124, Radius RD3, U1, Kemble 121, Conservatoire 124, Empire, Prestige. ie, the back, frame, strings, soundboard in most cases and action is the same, just a different case. Brilliant! Kemble may voice their Yamaha hammers slightly differently to Yamaha, but any self respecting dealer/technician does that for a customer anyway.

Glynn Morris wrote: It is always better to try and build a relationship with a local dealer for piece of mind about warranty and tuning issues

Yes it is, as long as the poor customer isn't paying £1,000 + for the privilege! Why does Glynn portray a dealer who can save a customer, in some cases, THOUSANDS OF POUNDS an uncaring individual with no customer service? If all the dealers who offer generous discounts began charging the full suggested selling price, then how many new pianos would be sold? Kemble and Yamaha UK would probably only sell half what they sell today and as mass production would decrease, so would economies of scale and prices would increase even more!
Warranty and tuning issues and peace of mind (I think!) Yamaha operate a 'Pan European Warranty' - written in the Yamaha dealer agreement is a clause which, rightly so, gives a customer peace of mind for 5 years, wherever they live in Europe If a Yamaha dealer sells to a customer and there is a guarantee issue, most dealers would want to resolve the issue themselves for their reputation, as recommendation is worth a great deal more than any other form of advertising. However, if a customer wishes their local Yamaha dealer to carry out the guarantee work, then that local dealer is obliged to do it, even if he did not supply the piano. So a customer who bought from a local dealer in Scotland who then moves to Hampshire, for example, the Hampshire dealer could do the work. That obligation is part of a Yamaha dealer's duties. (Obtaining a new tuning and servicing contract from a customer surely is good extra business for a dealer?) Car dealers welcome new servicing work and if you'd bought a new car and it broke down a hundred miles from your home, you would expect the local dealership to offer you help - it's no different in the piano world, only some people don't want you to know it! Yamaha have the largest network of dealers in the country, so no customer need worry about being left without a tuner or technical help. On the subject of tuning, and with respect to Glynn's rather unsubstantiated claim regarding using the cheapest tuner, I think most dealers who sell out of their local area would never choose a cowboy tuner to represent them - a good dealer wants happy satisfied customers, hence I expect most of these dealers would use the Piano Tuners' Association directory or the Association of Blind Piano Tuners shown on Barrie's forum.
Regarding 'bespoke' prepping, this is normally a service offered during or after the selection of the piano, on the dealer's premises, not at the customer's home. I would always recommend a customer to select the piano they order, as stated in my earlier reply.

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 21 Feb 2009, 12:21

chrisvenables wrote:
I think most dealers who sell out of their local area would never choose a cowboy tuner to represent them - a good dealer wants happy satisfied customers, hence I expect most of these dealers would use the Piano Tuners' Association directory or the Association of Blind Piano Tuners shown on Barrie's forum.
Regarding 'bespoke' prepping, this is normally a service offered during or after the selection of the piano, on the dealer's premises, not at the customer's home. I would always recommend a customer to select the piano they order, as stated in my earlier reply.

Its not my forum or website it belongs to the Association of Blind Piano Tuners they dictate what can and can not be put on the site. I am just the editor who has to answer to a committee and that has been the case since 1996 it was my idea in 1996 and I did fund it up to 1998 when it became self funding.

The ABPT is working on a Year Book with lists of members

Barrie

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 21 Feb 2009, 17:24

chrisvenables wrote:
Glynn Morris wrote: I have tuned many Kembles and Yamaha's. I believe the Kemble to be far superior and better finished than most Yamaha's.

-
Really? Isn't every Kemble upright made with a Yamaha iron frame, Yamaha action components and keys, made by Yamaha machines, overseen by Yamaha trained staff, built in the same Yamaha owned factory in Milton Keynes and by the same staff that make the UK built Yamahas? The Kemble grand is nothing more, nothing less, than a Yamaha C2 with a different badge. It's a shame the public (and some people in the trade) have been led to believe Kemble and Yamaha are quite different products when, underneath the shiny exterior there is almost no difference at all.

I'm afraid I have to agree.

I think dealers prefer to deal with the friendlier staff at Kemble, and have to compete less with dealers aggressively discounting on Kemble though. The only reason for actively choosing a Kemble over a Yamaha would be a better choice of casework styles and a free teddy bear.

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 21 Feb 2009, 19:37

PianoGuy wrote:
chrisvenables wrote:
Glynn Morris wrote: I have tuned many Kembles and Yamaha's. I believe the Kemble to be far superior and better finished than most Yamaha's.

-
Really? Isn't every Kemble upright made with a Yamaha iron frame, Yamaha action components and keys, made by Yamaha machines, overseen by Yamaha trained staff, built in the same Yamaha owned factory in Milton Keynes and by the same staff that make the UK built Yamahas? The Kemble grand is nothing more, nothing less, than a Yamaha C2 with a different badge. It's a shame the public (and some people in the trade) have been led to believe Kemble and Yamaha are quite different products when, underneath the shiny exterior there is almost no difference at all.
I'm afraid I have to agree.

I think dealers prefer to deal with the friendlier staff at Kemble, and have to compete less with dealers aggressively discounting on Kemble though. The only reason for actively choosing a Kemble over a Yamaha would be a better choice of casework styles and a free teddy bear.

And different bass strings they come from the US not Japan

So the Kembles and the P range have different soundboard, different Bass strings ... Hammers !!! they are different to what they had but probably made in the same place and Yam hammers but not the same as they put on Japanese pianos they seem to have more bounce

So the 3 most important components that make the sound of a piano are different on a Kemble than a Yamaha made in Japan Hmm I would not say that is "almost no difference at all" that a big difference However, I would agree there is little in the UK made Yamahas and the Kemble ones except as PG said "better choice of casework styles and a free teddy bear"

As for Yamaha trained staff will we be saying that the CFIIIS Grand is really a Boesendorfer Grand in a few years as they are over there teaching Yamaha staff how they do things.

The last time I visited Kembles they were patting themselves on the back as they had beat the Japanese again on QC for that month

At the end of the day if its coming out of Kembles its a good piano and its keeping UK workers in jobs

Barrie,
it does'nt matter were the screws come from its the guy holding the screw driver that matters

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 21 Feb 2009, 20:20

Why is Terry Venables trying to brainwash ourselves into thinking that Yamaha is the only piano maker? Terry have you ever heard of Steinway, Bluthner, Bechstein, Kawai etc etc?

Hey, let's keep it civil please, folks.

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 21 Feb 2009, 20:40

its the guy holding the screw driver that matters

Because we all know girlies don't do screwdrivers...unless they drink 'em! And I prefer a pint...

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 21 Feb 2009, 20:49

Glyn Morris wrote:Why is Terry Venables trying to brainwash ourselves into thinking that Yamaha is the only piano maker? Terry have you ever heard of Steinway, Bluthner, Bechstein, Kawai etc etc?

Also if Yamaha is so good...why do all the bass strings need replacing after 20 years of use.It doesnt happen with Kawai, Kemble or Steinway!!

Sorry Glyn, but Yamaha *are* so good.
It's why there are hundreds of dealers importing used ones. I expect even you do it, and why not?

I have known many S&S concert grands that have been restrung in the bass and often top section after *ten* years of hard labour; nobody knows how well a 20 year old modern Kemble will fare, but because it's basically a Yamaha we have a darn good idea (the ones that are 20 years old now are simply different beasts) and personally if I had a 20 year old Kawai, I'd chuck not just the strings, but the whole thing away, so let's thank goodness that new Kawais are now *almost* up there with Yamaha in quality, because old ones certainly weren't.

Yamaha build great pianos. I think they've dropped the ball with the b-range, but there are worse around even than those. I think what you may be hinting at is the less than clever way that Yamaha allow discounts to erode their reputation. I have difficulty in getting some of my clients to accept that Yamaha is not a budget brand, such was the level of unreasonable discounting. Discounts are fine as long as they don't cheapen the public perception of a product and allow poor prep and aftercare standards to creep in. If a dealer is going to go as far as prepare pianos well; allow the public to choose and take home the actual piano of their choice rather than 'one prepared just like it' and back up a comprehensive warranty then there's no problem. It's those who sell cheaply out of the box that cause industry standards to slip...... And those who try and compete by undercutting already undercut prices. It ends up with nobody making a profit but Yamaha and many dealers going out of business because thay can't or refuse to match prices.

Post by **vernon** » 21 Feb 2009, 21:18

Chris Venables
Are you really saying that if a Yamaha dealer undercut my price and dumped a defective Yamaha on my doorstep ,as the local Yamaha Dealer, I would be obliged to service it? You and Mahayas must be barmy.
Or, are all Hanyamas perfect on delivery?
Show me a new piano that does not need to be properly installed in a customer's home, by someone who knows their onions locally, not 500 miles away.

chrisvenables · Post by **chrisvenables** » 21 Feb 2009, 21:40

[quote]Barrie wrote:So the Kembles and the P range have different soundboard, different Bass strings ... Hammers !!! they are different to what they had but probably made in the same place and Yam hammers but not the same as they put on Japanese pianos they seem to have more bounce
[/quote]
If you read my last reply in full, you will see I was NOT comparing the Kembles with Japanese built Yamahas. I was comparing the Kemble pianos with the Yamaha P series, Radius and British built U1(was suffixed N now GQ) because they are made in the same factory in Milton Keynes. They use, I am sure, the same U S bass strings, Bavarian soundboards and same hammers. That's why I said there is almost no difference at all.
However, the Japanese built U1 has a Sitka spruce soundboard Japanese hammers and Japanese bass strings. I've seen more Yamaha UK built and Japanese built uprights than most ( on average, we sell about 400 NEW Yamaha uprights a year) and the British built models do have a slightly different sound and feel. Regarding action regulation, case finishing and toning, the Japanese Yamaha wins every time. We have to do more prepping on a UK built Yamaha than the Japanese equivalent. As Barrie said, it's not the screw.. but the guy holding the screwdriver - only it's not a guy anymore, it's a Yamaha machine. Screwdrivers went out of business at the same time as Welmar, Bentley and Knight. Maybe the UK factory quality control guys are good mates with their working colleagues and don't like to 'shop' them too often, hence their 'pat on the back for QC.' No pianos returned for poor finishing? - then you win the QC award! What really counts is the guy doing the quality control. Japan, IMHO, are more strict. Just an observation, but the flagship, top end range of Yamaha uprights, U3S, (U3NS in mahogany, is a Japanese back with the action and case parts fitted in UK) YUS3, YUS5S SU118 and SU7 and all the grands except the baby GB1are only made in Japan....

[quote]Glyn Morris wrote:
Why is Terry Venables trying to brainwash ourselves into thinking that Yamaha is the only piano maker? Terry have you ever heard of Steinway, Bluthner, Bechstein, Kawai etc etc
Also if Yamaha is so good...why do all the bass strings need replacing after 20 years of use.It doesnt happen with Kawai, Kemble or Steinway![/quote]

Glynn, I'm Chris not Terry, - or should I call you Austin, Mr Morris? I haven't seen any Yamahas of that age DESTINED TO BE SOLD NEW IN EUROPE which need new bass strings. I have a 20 year old C7 grand in the floor, original strings and not a dead note anywhere. I think that only applies to those second hand imports from Japan - 20 or 30 years in high humidity and taken an institutional hammering, what would you expect? They say a piano, the wood, felt and steel and copper age twice as fast in Japan, such a humid environment compared with the cosy environs of your centrally heated drawing room in the UK. Why do you think the Japanese are selling them to us? - because they're not worth restoring.

chrisvenables · Post by **chrisvenables** » 21 Feb 2009, 22:17

Hi Vernon, I was quoting from Yamaha dealer agreement, regarding warranty issues. I am not barmy, neither are Yamaha. If a customer asks a dealer to REPAIR their piano UNDER WARRANTY, then I believe that you should do it. It's in the dealer agreement you signed. If a customer asks you to SERVICE their piano, at a cost to the customer, then maybe you have the option not to do so. But why not? Tuning and servicing is good business. Lots of people do move location from time to time, so if a customer you supply in Scotland moves to Hampshire and has a warranty issue, I would be happy to undertake it. If you supply a customer who lives in Hampshire and they have a warranty issue, I would be happy to undertake it if you or any other dealer choose not to. If a piano has been selected at a dealer's, is well prep'd before delivery then it shouldn't need more than tuning 4 weeks later, then 3 months then every 6 months, plus annual servicing. There really isn't the mystery and scare-mongering you seem to want to attach to buying a piano. If it's a quality make from a quality dealer then the customer shouldn't have any problems at all.

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 21 Feb 2009, 23:32

Gill the Piano wrote:
its the guy holding the screw driver that matters
Because we all know girlies don't do screwdrivers...unless they drink 'em! And I prefer a pint...

Sorry should have been person

Barrie,

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 22 Feb 2009, 00:00

Glyn Morris wrote:Hi Chris ( Not Terry )

So who pays for the bill on the warranty call of this Yamaha that is sold? Is it the dealer or Yamaha themselves.

Regards

Gogs ( not Glyn )

The Dealer and its an EEC law that Yamaha had to adopt. The EEC rule is if you buy a piano in any EEC country or part thereof if you have a problem you can contact any local service centre and they are obliged to fix it. You can get any parts from Yamaha but the callout is down to you

And as most of the problems you get with new Yamaha's it take longer to take the case parts off than to fix it its best fitted in with a tuning which you charge for

Most dealers are not aware and the general public even less unless they read this forum

Barrie,

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 22 Feb 2009, 00:10

chrisvenables wrote: Glynn, I'm Chris not Terry, - or should I call you Austin, Mr Morris? I haven't seen any Yamahas of that age DESTINED TO BE SOLD NEW IN EUROPE which need new bass strings. I have a 20 year old C7 grand in the floor, original strings and not a dead note anywhere. I think that only applies to those second hand imports from Japan - 20 or 30 years in high humidity and taken an institutional hammering, what would you expect? They say a piano, the wood, felt and steel and copper age twice as fast in Japan, such a humid environment compared with the cosy environs of your centrally heated drawing room in the UK. Why do you think the Japanese are selling them to us? - because they're not worth restoring.

Who are "they" who say this?

Much as I am not in favour of this flooding of the UK market with Nippon-market Yams, I'd like to add that the "Seasoned for destination" argument is utter bo**erks. Tokyo's climate (and one would expect most Hamamatsu built Japanese-market Yamahas to be going there) has a similar climate to London. The Japanese sell their old pianos to us (and Australasia in fact) because they are so fickle as to demand a new model when their piano/car/hi-fi/warmed toilet seat gets to be a few years old. They're reckless habitual consumers. The pianos are perfectly capable of being restored if needs be, or simply used for original purpose if not.

Sadly many tired old munters and nasty ex-institutional items get imported alongside the decent stuff. One needs to be selective about where they come from and where you buy.

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 22 Feb 2009, 00:34

chrisvenables wrote: If you read my last reply in full, you will see I was NOT comparing the Kembles with Japanese built Yamahas. I was comparing the Kemble pianos with the Yamaha P series, Radius and British built U1(was suffixed N now GQ) because they are made in the same factory in Milton Keynes. They use, I am sure, the same U S bass strings, Bavarian soundboards and same hammers. That's why I said there is almost no difference at all.

The difference is You look at Kemble pianos as a Yamaha in drag I look at the Yamaha pianos made in the UK as Kembles in drag

chrisvenables wrote: ( on average, we sell about 400 NEW Yamaha uprights a year)

Harry was doing 2.2 a day but that has dropped off
As to prep time on the UK ones defiantly more time is needed the B1s have improved a bit and the last batch of Bs were much better the hammers were on the rest for once but this is not for an open forum

Barrie

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 22 Feb 2009, 12:57

Barrie Heaton wrote:
As for Yamaha trained staff will we be saying that the CFIIIS Grand is really a Boesendorfer Grand in a few years as they are over there teaching Yamaha staff how they do things.

God I hope not! A CF111s is a far better piano than most Bosies.

chrisvenables wrote: ( on average, we sell about 400 NEW Yamaha uprights a year)

Blimey. That few?

Given that we can all read your sale prices, and that you frequently offer further discounts on cetain stock, and we all know Yamaha trade prices. I can't see how you can have survived this long. What with rent/mortgage, UBR, power, wages, advertising to pay for, and all for a profit of a day's work for most good piano tuners or less on a b1! I'm mighty glad I'm not in the retail trade, I'd be trading the Lambo down to a Smart For-Two before you can say "Jack Johnson". Good luck to ya!

Look at Gill! She must have lost it all on a Yam dealership!

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 22 Feb 2009, 13:10

PianoGuy wrote:What with rent/mortgage, UBR, power, wages, advertising to pay for, and all for a profit of a day's work for most good piano tuners or less on a b1! I'm mighty glad I'm not in the retail trade, I'd be trading the Lambo down to a Smart For-Two before you can say "Jack Johnson". Good luck to ya!

Look at Gill! She must have lost it all on a Yam dealership!

Whoops!

I forgot to factor in the transport costs and that of a free first tuning!

Smart is becoming to look like an unaffordable luxury.... See you down the Perodua garage on Mon then?

PG

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 22 Feb 2009, 13:40

PianoGuy wrote:
Barrie Heaton wrote:
As for Yamaha trained staff will we be saying that the CFIIIS Grand is really a Boesendorfer Grand in a few years as they are over there teaching Yamaha staff how they do things.
God I hope not! A CF111s is a far better piano than most Bosies.

Not seen a Boesendorfer concert grand for a long wile but it would be nice to see more different grands on the concert platform other than S&S the CF111 has a very distinctive sound when side by side to a model D Had that opportunity last year of preparing both side by side for a client to pick, both were not good examples as they were over 15 years old and had a lot of use the CF111 had the edge that time.

Barrie,

Barrie,

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 22 Feb 2009, 13:47

PianoGuy wrote: I'd be trading the Lambo down to a Smart For-Two before you can say "Jack Johnson". Good luck to ya!

Look at Gill! She must have lost it all on a Yam dealership!

I traded up - or do I mean down or sideways?? - from a Seat Arosa!

Post by **vernon** » 22 Feb 2009, 15:22

What on earth is a seat arouser? Where can I buy one?

Psycho Pianoman · Post by **Psycho Pianoman** » 22 Feb 2009, 17:30

Right folks, easy on the Smart cars. There good!

As for concert Yams better than Bosey? You must be kidding!!!

I heard that it was the 'preffered' Big grand in Japan.

Gogs Bell, thanks for letting everyone know you're NOT Glyn Morris. (cause that's me)

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 22 Feb 2009, 18:35

OOOOOOoooo! A POSH one!

Psycho Pianoman · Post by **Psycho Pianoman** » 22 Feb 2009, 19:20

Says she who has the Cabster!

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 23 Feb 2009, 18:48

Ah, but it's only a Pulse. That's the clockwork one, according to my beloved bruvver...