Case History: bought quality german upright piano in June 2008
Tuned and inspected by independent tuner - end of August 2008 - verdict super piano - highest octave was unpleasantly sharp but otherwise everything seemed in relatively good tune.
Tuned by tuner supplied by store November 2008 ... also he found that the highest octave had drifted sharp again- otherwise seemed in relatively good tune... no other problems found.
January 2009 G3 and some close by notes sound horrible ... the 3 strings that make the note are out of tune with one another - and now some notes around G5 are sounding horrible.
By horrible - the piano is quickly becoming unplayable.
The independent tuner will come to retune in the next days ... he also grumbled that it should not need retuning again so soon.
Question: is it normal that such a piano will go so unpleasantly out of tune in such a relatively short time? After being retuned this coming week - will it settle down and become more stable - or is there some other issue involved (soundboard from unseasoned wood?) It has been somewhat cold here (near Geneva - Switzerland) thus very dry so I expect that humidity has been low - I am sure that this must have triggered this issue.... should I get one of these dampp chaser systems installed?
Question to the experts - I am not sure why certain strings of an individual note should move so much... the tuning pins are super tight ... it is hard to imagine that they have moved.
I am very disappointed by this behaviour of the piano - I am sure that once back in tune I will be happy again ... can I expect my happiness to last more than a few months?
Disappointment with out of tune Piano
Moderators: Feg, Gill the Piano, Melodytune
Re: Disappointment with out of tune Piano
Tuning often has little to do with tuning pins moving!
Your piano's soundboard is continually absorbing and releasing moisture as the environmental conditions change around it. This causes swelling and contracting of the board which tensions and slackens the strings respectively. A brand new piano has the additional problem in that the string material is both physically stretching and the various sections along the string length: the section between the soundboard bridge and hitch-pin; between the wrestpins and pressure bar; pressure bar and top bridge etc, are at differing tensions from the speaking length. Ideally, all these sections along the string's length need to be at the same tension before the piano is pitch-stable and this can take time. Years sometimes.
It's new, that's all!
Your piano's soundboard is continually absorbing and releasing moisture as the environmental conditions change around it. This causes swelling and contracting of the board which tensions and slackens the strings respectively. A brand new piano has the additional problem in that the string material is both physically stretching and the various sections along the string length: the section between the soundboard bridge and hitch-pin; between the wrestpins and pressure bar; pressure bar and top bridge etc, are at differing tensions from the speaking length. Ideally, all these sections along the string's length need to be at the same tension before the piano is pitch-stable and this can take time. Years sometimes.
It's new, that's all!
PG
The opinion above is purely that of PianoGuy and is simply the opinion of one person ....
If you're buying a piano, try as many as you can and buy the one you like, not a similar one of the same type.
The opinion above is purely that of PianoGuy and is simply the opinion of one person ....
If you're buying a piano, try as many as you can and buy the one you like, not a similar one of the same type.
Re: Disappointment with out of tune Piano
Many thanks for the reassurance... these words were what I was looking for... Maybe I was misled by our tuner who seemed convinced that it should be stable from the word go - an opinion that does not seemed shared on this forum - and now not shared by me. However I have been amazed at how ugly the sound of specific notes have become in such a short time and understand now why dealers have to keep their pianos in tune on the showroom floor at the very minimum.
I had hoped that the tuner would be able to come today to put an end to this misery - but it is not to be - he has promised to come on Tuesday and then I look forward to
I had hoped that the tuner would be able to come today to put an end to this misery - but it is not to be - he has promised to come on Tuesday and then I look forward to
Re: Disappointment with out of tune Piano
Playing Einaudi by the look of that smiley........
PG
The opinion above is purely that of PianoGuy and is simply the opinion of one person ....
If you're buying a piano, try as many as you can and buy the one you like, not a similar one of the same type.
The opinion above is purely that of PianoGuy and is simply the opinion of one person ....
If you're buying a piano, try as many as you can and buy the one you like, not a similar one of the same type.
Re: Disappointment with out of tune Piano
does anyone look forward to playing Einaudi?? 
Re: Disappointment with out of tune Piano
Crispin,
As always some good (and reassuring) advise from PianoGuy.
I was initially concerned about the unpleasant out of tune of my new piano delivered last year –even after two contractual post-delivery tunings performed at 4 month intervals. I’d seen hygrometer humidity readings from high of 68% (in July) to 38% (in Dec) which concerned me as Sauter recommended limits are 40-70. Another recent tuning has now rendered it very playable.
I seem to recall you have a fine Bechstein Academy, so believe you have nothing to worry about, and that all will gradually stabilize after another tuning.
Incidentally based on the above, I asked my tuner about installing a Dampp Chaser, which she laughed at!
I’d be interested to hear how popular Dampp Chaser’s are in UK, France, or elswhere.
As always some good (and reassuring) advise from PianoGuy.
I was initially concerned about the unpleasant out of tune of my new piano delivered last year –even after two contractual post-delivery tunings performed at 4 month intervals. I’d seen hygrometer humidity readings from high of 68% (in July) to 38% (in Dec) which concerned me as Sauter recommended limits are 40-70. Another recent tuning has now rendered it very playable.
I seem to recall you have a fine Bechstein Academy, so believe you have nothing to worry about, and that all will gradually stabilize after another tuning.
Incidentally based on the above, I asked my tuner about installing a Dampp Chaser, which she laughed at!
I’d be interested to hear how popular Dampp Chaser’s are in UK, France, or elswhere.
I was playing the piano in a zoo, when the elephant burst into tears. I said, "Don't you recognize the tune?" He replied, "No, I recognize the ivories!"
-
Barrie Heaton
- Site Admin
- Posts: 3651
- Joined: 30 May 2003, 20:42
- Location: Lanc's
- Contact:
Re: Disappointment with out of tune Piano
The heaters with the control unit are good for churches and second homes that are empty over winter but most homes have a more complex environment the full piano life saver system is worth every penny.NewAge wrote:Crispin,
I’d be interested to hear how popular Dampp Chaser’s are in UK, France, or elswhere.
At the moment up here in the north pianos are doping in pitch big time some homes are as low as 28 % humidity which is not good for the piano, as we have a very wet summer last year and normally pitches start to drop around September but they did not come down much last year but the Jan could snap has sent those temperature setting up and is drying out pianos
if you need advice you local fitter can be found at the bottom of this page click on the map
http://www.fletcher-newman.co.uk/Piano- ... index.html
or here for overseas
http://www.pianolifesaver.com/english/installer.php
Barrie,
Barrie Heaton
Web Master UK Piano Page
Web Master UK Piano Page
Re: Disappointment with out of tune Piano
I spoke to my dealer over 10 days ago about a Dampp chaser. They had the brochures available - which I picked up and studied. Dealer said they weren't popular, and couldn't recall ever being asked for one. That surprised me as it's an important, long established store in the region, for both acoustic and digital pianos.
They quoted me about 500 euros with tax for the complete system, and said they would advise on the price including fitment. That was 10 days ago. Heard nothing since!
Thanks for links Barry. Have now located an installer from the overseas listing.
Cheers.
They quoted me about 500 euros with tax for the complete system, and said they would advise on the price including fitment. That was 10 days ago. Heard nothing since!
Thanks for links Barry. Have now located an installer from the overseas listing.
Cheers.
I was playing the piano in a zoo, when the elephant burst into tears. I said, "Don't you recognize the tune?" He replied, "No, I recognize the ivories!"
Re: Disappointment with out of tune Piano
Indeed it is a Bechstein Academy 124 ... and a very fine piano it is when in tune. Even though the regular readers of this forum know which piano I have - I hesitated about pointing a finger too much at the manufacturer of this piano - as I felt I was being unnecessary alarmed by these horrid sounding notes... 
Fortunately the explanation of PianoGuy seems right on the money ... so I hope that after the next tuning it will be more settled ... but even if it goes off tune again I will just persevere. I was beginning to imagine all kinds of possible things
Regarding these Dampp Chaser systems that our American friends like so much... certainly I know locally of no piano that has such a system installed. The swings in humidity must be pretty large here since often it is below freezing all 24/24 7/7 for quite long periods and the summers can be warm and sometimes damp. I have found a local supply of such systems but I will ask our tuner first of his opinion. I would prefer not to install such a system unless strongly advised by experts
Regarding Einaudi - even though he is Italian his compositions seems a particular vice of the British ... I had to look him up on the web ... and then this Christmas - on top of my sister's piano I find a book full of Einaudi
Fortunately the explanation of PianoGuy seems right on the money ... so I hope that after the next tuning it will be more settled ... but even if it goes off tune again I will just persevere. I was beginning to imagine all kinds of possible things
Regarding these Dampp Chaser systems that our American friends like so much... certainly I know locally of no piano that has such a system installed. The swings in humidity must be pretty large here since often it is below freezing all 24/24 7/7 for quite long periods and the summers can be warm and sometimes damp. I have found a local supply of such systems but I will ask our tuner first of his opinion. I would prefer not to install such a system unless strongly advised by experts
Regarding Einaudi - even though he is Italian his compositions seems a particular vice of the British ... I had to look him up on the web ... and then this Christmas - on top of my sister's piano I find a book full of Einaudi
Re: Disappointment with out of tune Piano
Crispin - I just posted a reply which failed to appear when I submitted it? [Barrie any ideas please?]
So here goes again; shorter summary version.
Particularly cold weather in UK recently; domestic heating overworked; humidity falls below 40%.
One option is a room humidifier; one which has auto humidity sensing control.
Such as http://www.airandwatercentre.com/store/ ... etails.htm
Keeps whole environment in check rather than localised effect from in-built system, plus easier to access and monitor daily with a separate unit.
Some forums suggest 42% is optimum. Probably 40-55% is sensible range. Much above 60% and other problems such a rusting strings may begin.
Maybe consider de-humidifer for summer months too!
I'm sure your Bechstein Academy is fine but control humidity closely to keep it stable.
My Bluthner stayed fine for 14 weeks; just had first tune.
So here goes again; shorter summary version.
Particularly cold weather in UK recently; domestic heating overworked; humidity falls below 40%.
One option is a room humidifier; one which has auto humidity sensing control.
Such as http://www.airandwatercentre.com/store/ ... etails.htm
Keeps whole environment in check rather than localised effect from in-built system, plus easier to access and monitor daily with a separate unit.
Some forums suggest 42% is optimum. Probably 40-55% is sensible range. Much above 60% and other problems such a rusting strings may begin.
Maybe consider de-humidifer for summer months too!
I'm sure your Bechstein Academy is fine but control humidity closely to keep it stable.
My Bluthner stayed fine for 14 weeks; just had first tune.
Re: Disappointment with out of tune Piano
Just to bring this story to a close
The tuner appeared today... Oh là là - said he on playing some notes ... indeed he was a bit shocked to find it so out of tune.
He did not think that I needed a humidifier ... he said that apartments tended to be much drier than houses ... however he suggested that maybe the cold had got to the piano and that we should move it to be against an inside wall (right now it is a semi external wall - I say semi since there is a very large veranda on the outside of the wall) or to put a large sheet of insulating material between the wall and the piano. However it should be said that our previous piano - a Rosler (manufactured while the berlin wall existed) was relatively stable in the same position in the room.
He also raised the question about the technique of the tuner who came from the store. Apparently when one tunes - you should over-tighten slightly - and then ease off to bring the string into tune - however I could not enlighten him about the technique of the tuner... I could only say that I liked the sound of the piano after he had tuned rather than the tuner from the store.
Anyway - he also confirmed the words of PianoGuy saying that sometimes a piano takes 10 years to become stable.
He also said that it was an easy piano to tune and started on the story of the Bechstein false notes - the bottom line is that with this piano it is easy to get a pure resonance.
I will get a hygrometer so I know about the humidity ... we will see now how long it stays in tune - right now to my unprofessional ears it sounds just great - just
so I am happy. Hopefully in 3 months I will be still happy! Just to give a flavour of how bad it sounded - over the past week I have carefully inspected - using a flashlight - everywhere to ensure that there were no cracks in the bridge - or anything like that. And I could not find anything amiss - so I hope that it is just newness since when it is in tune - it sounds just great
Thanks to all for the positive responses
The tuner appeared today... Oh là là - said he on playing some notes ... indeed he was a bit shocked to find it so out of tune.
He did not think that I needed a humidifier ... he said that apartments tended to be much drier than houses ... however he suggested that maybe the cold had got to the piano and that we should move it to be against an inside wall (right now it is a semi external wall - I say semi since there is a very large veranda on the outside of the wall) or to put a large sheet of insulating material between the wall and the piano. However it should be said that our previous piano - a Rosler (manufactured while the berlin wall existed) was relatively stable in the same position in the room.
He also raised the question about the technique of the tuner who came from the store. Apparently when one tunes - you should over-tighten slightly - and then ease off to bring the string into tune - however I could not enlighten him about the technique of the tuner... I could only say that I liked the sound of the piano after he had tuned rather than the tuner from the store.
Anyway - he also confirmed the words of PianoGuy saying that sometimes a piano takes 10 years to become stable.
He also said that it was an easy piano to tune and started on the story of the Bechstein false notes - the bottom line is that with this piano it is easy to get a pure resonance.
I will get a hygrometer so I know about the humidity ... we will see now how long it stays in tune - right now to my unprofessional ears it sounds just great - just
so I am happy. Hopefully in 3 months I will be still happy! Just to give a flavour of how bad it sounded - over the past week I have carefully inspected - using a flashlight - everywhere to ensure that there were no cracks in the bridge - or anything like that. And I could not find anything amiss - so I hope that it is just newness since when it is in tune - it sounds just great
Thanks to all for the positive responses