Baffling

[Openwood]

Regular viewers may remember that when I joined the forum in 2007 I was in a state of barely-controlled hysteria over a buzzing B-natural (the first one above middle C) on a Yam C7 in our school hall. Since then the piano's had a lot of attention from some excellent technicians and the buzzing pretty much vanished (although I've always felt the tone of that note was a little tinny compared to the rest of the piano, despite several voicings).

A weird thing happened this week; the D-natural above the B (i.e. second D above MC) started buzzing. It sounded very much like a sympathetic buzz from a piece of furniture or like the noise you get when a bulb filament is vibrating but it isn't this because:
1) We took the piano out the hall and the buzz was still there. I asked a couple of other people to verify that I wasn't imagining it!
2) Absolutely every last screw, hammer, flange-whippet-bush-banana inside that frickin' piano was recently checked for tightness. It's nothing to do with the lock, music tray, lid or any of that. The action was taken out and checked and the piano was also regulated and voiced. Believe me, we have made a lOT of effort over this one!

Another weird ( ) thing is that the buzzing usually stops of its own accord after a while, and weirder still, it then somestimes returns but on the next-door notes of C-sharp or C-natural. Does anyone have an idea of what the rubber buggery might be causing this? It's not something that prevents the piano being used, but when you know it's there you just wait for it to start every time the thing is played. It is driving me just a little around the bend
Surely SOMETHING is causing it?

[Pianomate]

Perhaps you could try someone with an ultrasonic detector to locate the source. This approach is sometimes used in industry.

[Openwood]

an ultrasonic detector

Thanks pianomate - that's def worth a try. I'll ask our science department if they have one.

[Barrie Heaton]

there is a little spring in the lock that is a pain push the lock down see if the buzz disappears
Sweep the sound board take interest in the areas under the frame

Barrie

[vernon]

buzzes I have known.
Barrie's suggestion sounds good-- quite recently we had a Schimmel with an elusive buzz which finally turned out to be a drumstick under the frame, just sticking but also moving around occasionally when the weather was right.
Also had a broken bridge pin which proved to be the buzzer in another piano.Half of it just pulled out.How it broke heavens knows.
Let us all know if/when you find it.
Obviously you've done all the uusual things from your report

[Pianomate]

I take it you've checked for debris under the keys?

Engineering department in a college / university may have one. School unlikely to. Industrial test and inspection company otherwise.

[David B]

Something similarly wierd happened to my old joanna the other day....

I was sitting playing with the lid up, as you do, and the C sharp above middle C started buzzing. The buzzing sound sounded like it was coming from somewhere around the second octave below middle C. Couldn;t see anything untoward, and the naughty note didn't do the buzz when I damped to one string in three.

I was about to set fire to said piano, when I put the lid down. The buzz stopped. I put the lid up again and still no buzz....it hasn't come back (touch wood).

Maybe it was the lock, after all then, as Barry suggests?

[Openwood]

I was about to set fire to said piano, when I put the lid down. The buzz stopped. I put the lid up again and still no buzz....it hasn't come back (touch wood).

My C3 at home does exactly the same on the same notes! I find that gently pushing the lid away from me a little makes it stop, or, if that doesn't work I stack some books on the (closed) lid.

The buzz on the C7 defeats me; it's the fact that it comes and goes during the same playing session and also that it moves around the notes B-C-C#-D above MC at random. The piano has been gone through with a fine tooth comb and no explanation has been found. I'd love to know what it is and then KILL IT

[Bill Kibby]

Swamp the lock and other similar metal fittings with WD40. If it seems an instant improvement, it will confirm where the problem is. The top catch that stops the piano openiong is another culprit.

[Gill the Piano]

I'm sure I've said this before (nagging is a skill of mine) but have you checked the pins in the hinges are pushed right in? Particularly if they've got those little balls on the end...

[Openwood]

have you checked the pins in the hinges are pushed right in? Particularly if they've got those little balls on the end

Thanks for the tip, Gill; I must admit I haven't got as far as the balls yet.

[A440]

It's sometimes a caster, make sure they are all touching the floor- if not chock up. Tap stings down on bridge, but it sounds more like sympathetic vibration- remove case parts one by one. If necessary remove action and strike string with spare hammer sounds crazy but then at least you know. But my money's on caster.

[Openwood]

Thanks for all your advice. I'm intrigued by the castor, oil certainly investigate. Geddit?

[NewAge]

.........I'm intrigued by the castor, oil certainly investigate. Geddit?

With a comment like that you should be castorgated............

[Gill the Piano]

Thanks for the tip, Gill; I must admit I haven't got as far as the balls yet.

As I posted that, I thought 'Shall I add something to let them know I know where their minds are?'
Then I thought, 'No, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.'

HAH!

[Barrie Heaton]

Thanks for all your advice. I'm intrigued by the castor, oil certainly investigate. Geddit?

Hmm if you find that one of the legs of a 3 legged grand is off the ground I would call NASA they would be very interested

Barrie

[chrisvenables]

Maybe it's just a coincidence, but the offending note on your Yamaha C7, B above mid C is the very first note on the capo bar section -So both ends of the duplex scale come into effect - the capo bar (front part) of the duplex creates a very noticeable harmonic not heard on notes lower down the scale, where the traditionally non speaking section of strings from tuning pin to the agraffes (studs)are muted by felt. Many pianists complain about this distinctly audible harmonic /tone change on those first 3 or 4 notes particularly when played hard and careful toning of the hammers is crucial to try and obtain a nice tonal balance as you go up the scale. You can test the degree of harmonic by putting a gloved finger(so as not to tarnish the wire) on the three strings of that front duplex section (before the capo bar) that make up note 51,your offending B. Play it hard - the note will sound incredibly dull - is there still a buzz? Then play it again without muting it to hear the harmonic 'zing'. (On your C3 the first note in the capo section should be note 55, Eflat) If there's no longer a buzz when in muted duplex mode, you could ask your tuner to voice the offending notes which usually does the trick. On some really bad cases I've seen some tuners even mute off one or two of the strings in the front duplex, but it's not the done thing! You could also get your tuner to check the string downbearing on the wooden bridge. Also, whilst you are playing get him to press on the bridge every 3 or 4 inches from the top treble downwards. Give the same attention to the string section between the wooden bridges and the hitchpins and then on the soundboard top and underneath. Whilst underneath check the ribs - excessive humidity can swell the soundboard causing ribs to loosen at the edges -even on a Yamaha. Still no joy? Check the twin adjusting nuts on the three pedal rods -they can work loose and whilst down there check the stays and all bolts, nuts etc. Screws which seem to enjoy coming loose, usually because they're so short, are those on the hinge plate on the underside of the top lid and also the brass housing screwed to the inside of the rim a few inches from the prop stick. I hope that's a help!

[Barrie Heaton]

Many pianists complain about this distinctly audible harmonic /tone change on those first 3 or 4 notes particularly when played hard and careful toning of the hammers is crucial to try and obtain a nice tonal balance as you go up the scale. You can test the degree of harmonic by putting a gloved finger(so as not to tarnish the wire) on the three strings of that front duplex section (before the capo bar) that make up note 51,your offending B. Play it hard - the note will sound incredibly dull - is there still a buzz? Then play it again without muting it to hear the harmonic 'zing'. (On your C3 the first note in the capo section should be note 55, Eflat) If there's no longer a buzz when in muted duplex mode, you could ask your tuner to voice the offending notes which usually does the trick.

capo bleed more common on Steinway and Schimmel than Yamaha I have only seen it on a few Yamaha's but they were C7 and concert never seen it on a C3 but... possible. He will notice a different sound of he mutes off just one note he would get a better balance if he mutes the who section off with a rolled up clean cloth.

On some really bad cases I've seen some tuners even mute off one or two of the strings in the front duplex, but it's not the done thing!

Tell that to the Steinway tuners standard practise for them, more bits of felt stuck in the capo than bits of paper on a sailor face who has been shaving in a storm.

Barrie,

[vernon]

I have never seen in any piano book, a treatise on eliminating."noises." We have all had to attend to them even if nobody can hear them save the client.

The learned and experience -based information in this thread should be collated by someone more IT- competent than I for use in the Trade, especially younger tuners, if there are any.

[chrisvenables]

Barrie Heaton wrote -[capo bleed more common on Steinway and Schimmel than Yamaha I have only seen it on a few Yamaha's but they were C7 and concert never seen it on a C3 but... possible. He will notice a different sound of he mutes off just one note he would get a better balance if he mutes the who section off with a rolled up clean cloth.

What I was trying to suggest to Openwood was that if he temporarily mutes off the front duplex on the offending note no.51 and the buzz disappears, then careful toning of the hammers in that area could cure it and leave the piano nicely balanced. I wouldn't suggest muting off the whole duplex - the treble would sound far too dull. My reply was with reference to the C7 in the school, as mentioned at the start of Openwood's post. I mentioned the C3 which they also have only because they also had a similar problem with that piano slightly higher up the scale, and, again, maybe coincidentally, around the start of the front duplex which starts on note 55 on the C3. I've seen hundreds of Yamaha grands and they all have a degree of 'zing' at the start of the duplex - usually it enhances the tone and increases the dynamic range - unfortunately you get the odd piano where there's too much zing and toning usually does the trick. Of course, particularly in a school, in time as the hammers harden up, the harmonic will return, so annual toning and regulating, just like servicing your car, is vital.

Openwood - when you're trying to locate the buzz, get two people with you to try and locate the area whilst you're playing the offending note. If you've any queries you can always phone me - 01425 476644.

[Openwood]

Thanks for all the replies - sorry I haven't replied sooner, I'm at Gatwick right now having just flown back from a school trip. I'll read the replies carefully when I'm home and keep you posted on my progress!

[Openwood]

Many pianists complain about this distinctly audible harmonic /tone change on those first 3 or 4 notes particularly when played hard

Chris, many thanks for the detailed suggestions; I'm going to ask my tuner to work through them with me and we'll see what happens. It does sound very much like the scenario you describe in the quote above - the notes are fine up to mf but there's a definite change in tone above that dynamic level.

[Barrie Heaton]

Barrie Heaton wrote -[capo bleed more common on Steinway and Schimmel than Yamaha I have only seen it on a few Yamaha's but they were C7 and concert never seen it on a C3 but... possible. He will notice a different sound of he mutes off just one note he would get a better balance if he mutes the who section off with a rolled up clean cloth.

What I was trying to suggest to Openwood was that if he temporarily mutes off the front duplex on the offending note no.51 and the buzz disappears, then careful toning of the hammers in that area could cure it and leave the piano nicely balanced. I wouldn't suggest muting off the whole duplex - the treble would sound far too dull.

I know that it was a temp so was mine as I find that is normally more than just a few notes and the rolled up cloth on the whole duplex demonstrates the clarity that should be there which is not present on some tiered Yamaha pianos

by coincidence I have done a C7 this week in a school that has very bad treble - this piano is an import and has been reface a few time but not very well. that has not helped, the strings are showing falseness which again is not helping, but the piano has been cooked and the DB was very shallow.

The pianos is in the late 60 pos 70s needs new hammers and a restring which they can't afford yet. Have you tried cold press Wurzen/Weickert felt on a Yamaha C7 they are jumping up and down about it in Germany.



Barrie,

[vernon]

Barrie
What's DB?

[Barrie Heaton]

Barrie
What's DB?

Sorry downbearing

on this piano is was close to negative which as you know is not uncommon on old pianos and you can have the string going down to the bridge and still have good sustain, but with Capo scaling its a pain

now with Schimmel pianos you take out the half moon bar and pack it up Schimmel recommend 5mm thick card cut to size it works well but I found this to be a pain as it makes the tuning very unstable for months I now use a Coke can cut into strips and glue it to the under side of the half moon one strip works well and not compression so just a few tunings and all is well with the world.


Barrie,

[Openwood]

I now use a Coke can cut into strips

Teaching the world to string in perfect harmony

[chrisvenables]

[/quote] Barrie wrote: The pianos is in the late 60 pos 70s needs new hammers and a restring which they can't afford yet. Have you tried cold press Wurzen/Weickert felt on a Yamaha C7 they are jumping up and down about it in Germany. /quote]

Haven't tried them Barrie - I'd be interested to hear how those hammers sound, although as a Yamaha dealer I'm really obliged to use Yamaha components. Should this really be posted in tuner's section so as not to confuse readers?

[Openwood]

Maybe it's just a coincidence, but the offending note on your Yamaha C7, B above mid C is the very first note on the capo bar section -So both ends of the duplex scale come into effect - the capo bar (front part) of the duplex creates a very noticeable harmonic not heard on notes lower down the scale, where the traditionally non speaking section of strings from tuning pin to the agraffes (studs)are muted by felt. Many pianists complain about this distinctly audible harmonic /tone change on those first 3 or 4 notes particularly when played hard and careful toning of the hammers is crucial to try and obtain a nice tonal balance as you go up the scale. You can test the degree of harmonic by putting a gloved finger(so as not to tarnish the wire) on the three strings of that front duplex section (before the capo bar) that make up note 51,your offending B. Play it hard - the note will sound incredibly dull - is there still a buzz? Then play it again without muting it to hear the harmonic 'zing'.

I tried muting the strings on the front duplex scale from notes 51-54 (B-D#) and there was certainly a reduction in the 'zing' (Chris V's description - 'zing' describes the sound much better than my 'buzz'). It didn't remove the zing altogether but it did muffle it (along with the rest of the sound, obviously) and it also shortened the duration of the zing.

I'm wondering if there may be two separate issues here. The intermittent zings on C, D and D# seem to be connected to the duplex scale and its harmonics, as Chris suggested, but the B is still behaving oddly in a different way. For example, one of the pieces I'm playing at the mo is Haydn's piano sonata in Eb (52). In one of the bars of the slow movement it's necessary to play the B repeatedly and quickly; when I do this the tone of the B becomes very nasty and 'twangy'. This doesn't happen on the other, adjacent 'zingy' notes. The sustain pedal is being used at this point - the nasty twang doesn't seem to appear unless the sustain pedal is used.

Any ideas what this could be?

[chrisvenables]

How old is the piano and are the hammer heads fairly worn or grooved? The twang you describe is often caused by the fact that too much of the worn hammer head is hitting the string - it is vital the the hammer head is perfectly shaped, both in terms of how pointed it is, so that it strikes the 3 strings at exactly the correct spot and also that the head is is perfectly level so all 3 strings are struck at the same moment, otherwise all sorts of nasty sounds will be produced. It's unlikely on a Yamaha that the actual 'strike line' of all the hammers is incorrect, but you could ask your tuner to check that it has not been altered.Tune the note (preferably the whole piano) and then tone it. Check that the 3 strings on B are clean and of the same type of wire and that the bridge pins are firmly fixed. The fact that the dampers in that passage of the music are not coming into play just accentuates the fault.

(A 'fault' with all pianos -all notes except the very top will 'twang' to a degree if played hard enough and loud enough with the sustain pedal on, as the strings are being struck again whilst they are still moving)

[Openwood]

How old is the piano and are the hammer heads fairly worn or grooved?

The C7 isn't old - 2005, or thereabouts. Serial number 6771188.

It was voiced in January and the zings appeared to have gone away, only to return a couple of weeks later.

The piano as a whole sounds fantastic, which makes these imperfection seven more grating. It takes a lot of pleasure out of playing because I tense-up whenever I play these notes - which is a lot of the time, given where they are on the keyboard.

I'm getting someone across next week to 'overhaul' my C3 at home (it's been under wraps since December due to moving house) and I'll ask them to look at the C7 too. Mind you, a whole bunch of people have looked at the bloody thing already and nobody seems able to sort it out

[chrisvenables]

If the zing comes back so soon, then either the toning needles aren't going in deep enough, at the right point(s), the nose of the felt is too flat and/or there isn't enough felt left on the heads for the needles to penetrate far enough. Only other reason I can think of for a zing returning is the B is going out of tune prematurely. Has it had a string replaced which is still settling?

[Openwood]

Has it had a string replaced which is still settling?

Not to my knowledge.

[Barrie Heaton]

is the zing there when you uses the Sostenuto pedal

On newish pianos which get heavy use the hammer can get very hard just in the little grove if fact it can just be a line not a grove. Some tuners just scratch the grove which will remove the zig for a short period, the 2mm single needle in the nose will last a lot longer and stem even longer

if you play form the shoulders and if the school piano is hammered as well, toning is going to be a regular item

I have clients who need the piano voiced on each visit

Barrie,

[Openwood]

I got a tech over from the UK mainland to look at the zings; in the end he muted the middle duplex string on each note and the problem is FINALLY solved. It may not be the most elegant solution but it's fixed something that's been driving me up the wall since 2005 so I'm lovin' it.

[Barrie Heaton]

I got a tech over from the UK mainland to look at the zings; in the end he muted the middle duplex string on each note and the problem is FINALLY solved. It may not be the most elegant solution but it's fixed something that's been driving me up the wall since 2005 so I'm lovin' it.

A drop of glue on the duplex string will alter the pitch that also works well, and if you use translucence glue you can hardly see it and you don't lose power like you do with muting


I seen a long time ago the old lead fishing weights were good as you can move them and tune the string in

Barrie,