New piano advice

Einaudi fan · Post by **Einaudi fan** » 21 Dec 2008, 16:21

Hi All,

My son is 15 years old and has been playing piano since he was 5.

We are looking for an upright which will serve him well through his studies in music through university.

I have only just started to learn to play and therefore know nothing about pianos. We have been to forsyth's in manchester and he has played on a Kawai, Yamaha and a vogul. He preferred the sound and feel of the Vogul. I am prepared to spend about £4000.00 and looking for independent advice.

We have seen a used schimmel 116 which we have yet to play but is around that price. Our piano tuner says that we don't need to spend that much, a used yamaha for around £2k will do.

But, I don,t want something that will do. I want something that will be a good investment for the future of my son and something that will help him become the best he can be. something that will maybe inspire him. a piano that says" come and play me"

Sorry to sound naive but the choice is overwhelming (even in the yamaha range)

The yamaha dealers seem to be a bit pile it high-sell it cheap! which is not very inspiring and does not give me confidence.

Any thoughts on the used schimmel?

Thanks

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 21 Dec 2008, 16:50

"A used Yamaha for around 2k will do..."

Well it might, but it depends whether you want something as a bit-better-than-a-starter piano, or something that will last for longer.

Forsyths are the Schimmel importers, so will naturally be plugging them, and certainly they're a worthy piano marque, but in this country they're vastly overpriced compared to Germany. In the UK they're regarded as something special because they're German, whereas in Germany they're very much a standard brand. Think Opel/Vauxhall rather than Merc/BMW. Vogel are Schimmel designed but built in Poland. Normally this is not a good combination (witness the disappointingly lacklustre efforts from Irmler-Europe) but Schimmel have got it right with Vogel, and the value is good.

You've certainly got the measure of many Yam dealers, so it's worth seeking out the few who actually want to be bothered to prepare them well and give good service. Nobody has pi**ed off more dealers in the UK than Yamaha it seems. Witness the number of dealers on this forum who stand by rival Kawai. Many of them actually really want to stock Yamaha, but there's little point when the lion's share of sales are done by the pile-'em-high merchants. Many do stock near-identical Kembles because the terms offered to dealers and the trade reps are quite frankly better. Kawai's stength is also in the support of their sales reps who are helpful and efficient. The product is also good and getting better all the time, but is still lagging behind Yamaha in spite of being progressive.

The used Shimmel may be nice, but watch the price. Many Schimmels feature casework which is not exactly to British tastes, and cabinets with Queen-Anne style or Regency casework are a great way to lose money. This is even more evident in earlier designs from the '60s to the '80s. If it's a plain polyester black or mahogany with little in the way of flungers, geegaws and frills on the cabinet you're probably safe.

As an alternative, try and play a selection of well-sorted s/h U1 Yamahas and a few top Chinese makes. Brodmann and Perzina are by far my favourites. Dawsons stock Perzina I believe.

A final word. If all you intend to play is Einaudi, it really doesn't matter what piano you play it on. It will always be repetitive shite.

Merry Christmas now.

PG

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 21 Dec 2008, 17:05

Its nice to see a parent with a positive attitude to the future of their offspring. Myself I would go for the Vogel 122 or bigger as they have a sweet sound compared to a Yamaha If you go down the road of the S/H Yam as you tuners says there are a lot of long term problems with quite a lot of S/H Yam that are imported spring cord and bass strings for one.

S/h schimmel 116 are OK but you need to be looking at 122 or 132 size piano to get a full sound in the bass and the longer key on the action.

To get the bigger size piano you may have to go down the road of S/H pianos

There are a lot of Dealers who sell Yams in the Manchester area but you will have to look a little further if you want something different

Most new makes are going up in Jan but quite a few dealers have this years stock to shift so there will be some good deals out there.

Barrie,

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 21 Dec 2008, 17:12

Barrie Heaton wrote:Its nice to see a parent with a positive attitude to the future of their offspring.

I have to say I agree!

Barrie Heaton wrote:Myself I would go for the Vogel 122 or bigger as they have a sweet sound compared to a Yamaha If you go down the road of the S/H Yam as you tuners says there are a lot of long term problems with quite a lot of S/H Yam that are imported spring cord and bass strings for one.

It's a general principle that a piano bigger than 120cm will be a more rewarding instrument, so the 116 Schimmel may well disappoint. Agreed in Barrie's suggestion of the Vogel 122 in this respect. Also try a Kemble 121CL or the limited edition 121CLM Mozart if you can find one. Fancy casework, but actually rather tasteful!

Barrie Heaton wrote:Most new makes are going up in Jan but quite a few dealers have this years stock to shift so there will be some good deals out there.

Good point well made!

Post by **vernon** » 21 Dec 2008, 18:07

What about a nicely prepared Pearl River 125 or Kawai K3- you'll get either under 4kl
Nicht ein Yamahfan

ennjaydee · Post by **ennjaydee** » 21 Dec 2008, 18:36

Schimmel piano's are beautifully made but the sound left me wanting for more at the price point. OK in Germany but not favourable exchange rate for UK. Of course this has impact on used prices. Best I found for 4-5k price point was Kemble Mozart 121 which blew me away at that price. It's a limited edition but there may still be some available new if you look around.

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 21 Dec 2008, 18:40

vernon wrote:What about a nicely prepared Pearl River 125 or Kawai K3- you'll get either under 4kl

Both good suggestions, although I think the Pearl River UP-125M1 is actually a Yamaha-Pearl River offering. You see, you like the product, just not the brand!

vernon wrote:Nicht ein Yamahfan

I think even a non-Yamahafan will appreciate that brand's reliability, design and superb ease of tuning. The Japanese and Kemble ones especially. I bet you like Kemble. Now what's the difference?

mdw · Post by **mdw** » 21 Dec 2008, 19:03

PianoGuy wrote: I bet you like Kemble. Now what's the difference?

A great big slice of class imo.

( not too much more I admit but I know what I would rather admit to owning).

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 21 Dec 2008, 19:21

mdw wrote:
PianoGuy wrote: I bet you like Kemble. Now what's the difference?
A great big slice of class imo.
( not too much more I admit but I know what I would rather admit to owning).

I think there are far more people out there who'd disagree.

Virtually everybody in the music world has heard of Yamaha and only a tiny number of those have heard of Kemble. Yamahas grace the stages, studios and homes of the rich and famous all over the world, and Kembles do not feature, so I think your 'class' argument doesn't hold water.

Kemble's advantage is their attitude to dealers and superb aftersales to customers. Their products are also available in a more attractive casework range, although if you're after plain old poly black or mahogany that's not a concern. The aftersales would be the argument for me, although if you buy a Yam from a conscientious dealer there should be no problem.

Model V · Post by **Model V** » 21 Dec 2008, 21:41

I know Kemble are now owned by Yamaha but I cannot associate "Class" with the name (it took a very long time for people to take Skoda seriously). The pianos Kemble used to make (presumably when independent) were shocking, at least the ones played by me.

I would take a Yamaha over almost any German make and can't think of a much classier name to have on the bonnet. (Actually I can but I already have one of those

).

Model V · Post by **Model V** » 21 Dec 2008, 21:45

PianoGuy wrote:A final word. If all you intend to play is Einaudi, it really doesn't matter what piano you play it on. It will always be repetitive shite

LOL. I mean it, I'm still pissing myself. PG hit the nail on the head there.

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 21 Dec 2008, 22:06

Model V wrote:I know Kemble are now owned by Yamaha but I cannot associate "Class" with the name (it took a very long time for people to take Skoda seriously). The pianos Kemble used to make (presumably when independent) were shocking, at least the ones played by me.

It's true to say that Kemble were associated with the popular domestic and cheap educational end of the market, but they were of a half-decent standard for their time. The brand was certainly helped along by Yamaha, but a few Chappell (same company at the time) models and the old Kemble Classic were excellent value and still hold their own today. Kemble also built many lesser known pianos such as Squire & Longson, Rogers Eungblut, Brinsmead, but that soon stopped under Yamaha involvement.

I am certainly in agreement about the class thing though. It would be like BMW taking over Austin-Rover in the '90s and ditching the "Rover" part of the name!

Model V wrote:I would take a Yamaha over almost any German make and can't think of a much classier name to have on the bonnet. (Actually I can but I already have one of those ).

Me too.

Let's face it. Yamaha make the definitive affordable upright, the U1. The Yamaha P121, b3 and the Kemble 121 brethren are derived from it, and many European makers would love to be building that piano. Most Korean pianos of similar size are direct copies, and there's a good deal of its influence in many Chinese pianos. Yamaha also build the best grand piano at its price point and size, the C3, and have an enviable reputation as makers of professional pianos.

Kemble who? Kawai wot? They don't even come close in brand identity or 'class'.

I am in complete sympathy with the dealers on here who dislike Yamaha's lack of concern about who sells their products at what price, and the brand has certainly been cheapened of late, but the products (b-series with reservations) are undeniably superb. It is certainly fair to argue that Yamaha's policy of allowing rampant discounters has decimated the piano retail network in the UK, and the 'pile 'em high' approach is now being detected by the public as the originator of this thread has noted. The product itself is superb. Find a good dealer if there are any left, and try one yourself.

Einaudi fan · Post by **Einaudi fan** » 22 Dec 2008, 01:15

Model V wrote:
PianoGuy wrote:A final word. If all you intend to play is Einaudi, it really doesn't matter what piano you play it on. It will always be repetitive shite
LOL. I mean it, I'm still pissing myself. PG hit the nail on the head there.

To be fair. I did state clearly - I know nothing about pianos. LOL

Thanks everyone for the advice. I guess we will just have to hunt around and listen to as many as we can. I suppose the piano my son connects with is the one to buy. But not knowing anything about pianos, I just wanted to be sure I wasn't paying a lot of money for a piano that is wrong or paying over the odds for a used one for example.

I understand the used schimmel is a 90s model and around the £4k mark. Is that a reasonable price?

ennjaydee · Post by **ennjaydee** » 22 Dec 2008, 10:49

Hmm, a used 90's Schimmel 116 for 4k. Sounds a bit high given that a new one is 6-7k, although if it is unmarked and plays well it might be worth it, depends whether its 1990 or 1999 and how much use it's had. I tried a 10k and a 12k Schimmel new and still preferred the Kemble Mozart at 4.5k, which by the way I did not buy but I was amazed at it's performance for the price. It's based on a Yamaha U1 with Kemble putting extra effort into setup and using top grade soundboard and hammers. Incidentally I bought a Bluthner Model A but it's in a rather different price bracket.

The most important thing is to go and try several pianos and see what you like. Stick to reputable dealers. Listen to their advice, of course bearing in mind what they sell. I travelled a few hundred miles over several weekends, visited eight dealers, that gave me a pretty good understanding of what was available and helped me finalise my choice. And take an independent expert (ie tuner) with you once you think you've found the right thing, particularly if you are buying used. Finally buy the actual serial number piano you like as every one is different.

Happy hunting

Model V · Post by **Model V** » 22 Dec 2008, 10:51

Einaudi fan wrote:I understand the used schimmel is a 90s model and around the £4k mark. Is that a reasonable price?

There must be some cracking U3s out there if your budget is £4k. Not saying the schimmel wouldn't be nice though. On a recent visit to the Bluthner showroom in London, i was very impressed with the Haessler uprights. They might be in your price range too.

MV.

joseph · Post by **joseph** » 22 Dec 2008, 12:27

Honestly, a good Yamaha will be your best bet, especially when the time comes to upgrade again, say, if you want to buy a grand. Yamaha are such a well known name, people always want to buy Yamaha and they hold their value because of this.

Schimmel are nice enough, but you know, perhaps at the age of 15 your son hasn't had experience with lots of different pianos? Of course, I could be VERY wrong there and offer my apology in advance. (he might be Benjamin Grosvenor for all I know!)

If I am right, I think in the long run you would be happier with a Yamaha. Just my two pence, feel free to ignore.

ennjaydee · Post by **ennjaydee** » 22 Dec 2008, 13:11

Model V wrote "There must be some cracking U3s out there .."

Yes and some rubbish ones, so choose carefully. I found 5million or higher serial numbers much better than 4million or earlier ones in general, but there were BIG differences between used U3s so look at plenty to find the right one if you go this route.

Model V · Post by **Model V** » 22 Dec 2008, 16:00

ennjaydee wrote:look at plenty to find the right one if you go this route.

Quite. There are a lot of these around. From the sublime to the ridiculous. The best ones I've played would give anything a run for its money. Choose carefully.

joseph · Post by **joseph** » 22 Dec 2008, 19:46

even some new U3s can sound quite horrid, yet some older ones sound really warm.

The RCM had lots of U3s from the 1970s, that of course were completely run into the ground, yet somehow still played better than the much newer SU131s they'd bought in the 1990s.

ATG · Post by **ATG** » 22 Dec 2008, 22:08

Model V wrote:I know Kemble are now owned by Yamaha but I cannot associate "Class" with the name (it took a very long time for people to take Skoda seriously).

We've got 2 Skodas and a Kemble Conservatoire so I suppose we are not classy. But all three are magnificent creations.

ATG

mdw · Post by **mdw** » 22 Dec 2008, 22:43

ATG wrote: We've got 2 Skodas and a Kemble Conservatoire so I suppose we are not classy. But all three are magnificent creations.

ATG

Some would say both classy and wise. Ive always thought following the heard a most unimagineitive path to tread.

ennjaydee · Post by **ennjaydee** » 22 Dec 2008, 23:41

I have heard many Skoda jokes but never any Kemble ones ...

ennjaydee · Post by **ennjaydee** » 23 Dec 2008, 00:09

Heard the one about Einaudi playing on a Kemble? Expect PG has a suggestion! LOL!

Model V · Post by **Model V** » 23 Dec 2008, 07:06

ATG wrote:
Model V wrote:We've got 2 Skodas and a Kemble Conservatoire so I suppose we are not classy. But all three are magnificent creations.

ATG

On the contrary. You effectively have 2 Volkswagens (but you paid less) and a Yamaha (where you may have paid more). What's not to like? Kemble no longer make average British pianos and Skoda no longer make terrible Czech cars, although afaik assembly still takes place in the respective countries. Both products are now excellent, though hardly Czech or British tbh. My local music shop has a Kemble grand in now and I must have a play of it. If I were looking and it was better than the Yams available at the time I might well buy it. I'm not sure what the residual values of the two brands are, though, for a similar piano. What I do know is I love modern Skodas and well set up Yamahas.

MV

mdw · Post by **mdw** » 23 Dec 2008, 09:14

mdw wrote:
ATG wrote: We've got 2 Skodas and a Kemble Conservatoire so I suppose we are not classy. But all three are magnificent creations.

ATG
Some would say both classy and wise. Ive always thought following the flock a most imagineitive path to tread.

NewAge · Post by **NewAge** » 23 Dec 2008, 18:08

.........don’t know any related Kemble and Skoda jokes, but for any devotees of trivial nonsense or anagram lovers, ‘Kemble and Skoda’ gives you ‘Naked Mad Blokes’.
Not many people know that..........

Pianomate · Post by **Pianomate** » 23 Dec 2008, 20:35

A final word. If all you intend to play is Einaudi, it really doesn't matter what piano you play it on. It will always be repetitive shite

Save your money and instead of buying a piano, download a MIDI file music program from the net - will be more than adequate for doing Einaudi on. You only need to type in the first four bars then program it to repeat for 4 minutes, or until your insomnia is cured. You have the added advantage that you can then use it on a call queuing system for your phone line. If you want a differnt Einaudi tune, simply randomly rearrange the existing bars you have already programmed in.

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 24 Dec 2008, 03:22

If you want a differnt Einaudi tune, simply randomly rearrange the existing bars you have already programmed in.

Has anybody else noticed the striking resemblance between the approach to composition outlined above and the entire keyboard output of Clementi? Are they by any chance related? I think we should be told.

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 24 Dec 2008, 13:17

Openwood wrote: Has anybody else noticed the striking resemblance between the approach to composition outlined above and the entire keyboard output of Clementi? Are they by any chance related? I think we should be told.

At least Clementi had the redeeming attribute of being a damn' good piano maker, whereas Einaudi's just a tw*t.

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 24 Dec 2008, 15:46

At least Clementi had the redeeming attribute of being a damn' good piano maker, whereas Einaudi's just a tw*t.

Ah, yes; my argument does rather fall down there.

ATG · Post by **ATG** » 24 Dec 2008, 23:01

You do realise that google has probably had more searches for Einaudi over the last few days than for the whole of the rest of the year, as a result of this thread? I've certainly done it...

ATG