U1 or U3 for smallish room?

[mike.]

our dining room is 14 feet x 14 feet. The U3 I tried in the showroom sounds amazing but would a U1 sound better in a (carpeted) room of that size?

And is there any feedback online for the different retailers of used & refurbished Yamahas? For example, I cant find anything on here about what Mark Goodwin is like to deal with..

many thanks
Mike

[mdw]

The best advice is to find your local piano shop and as long as they are up to scratch use them to buy and maintain your piano.

[PianoGuy]

And is there any feedback online for the different retailers of used & refurbished Yamahas? For example, I cant find anything on here about what Mark Goodwin is like to deal with..

A U1 would probably be fine, but the U3 has an extra degree of trouser-flapping bass and is a well mannered enough piano to be able to give good results in a small space if you throttle back a bit!. They are used in tiny practice rooms in many top music colleges and schools around the globe.

There are so many importers flogging these to the trade it's worth finding out where the dealer gets his U1/3s from before trying. I have found that the ones imported by Music Brokers (a Dutch company) are comprehensively refurbished to a good standard, otherwise look for that all-important high serial number above 4 million.

No experience with Mark, although he seems to be at least trying to be a 'good egg'. He offers an email service which gives his own personal opinion on the quality of new Chinese instruments versus a second hand U1/U3, and I must say that whilst he opines some valid points, he's obviously only ever seen crap Chinese pianos with which to compare. A new Brodmann BU121 or Perzina GP129 (both Chinese but designed in Europe) could knock the stuffing out of many used Yamaha U1s and U3s for not much more money, and could give an indifferently prepped new one a few races round the block too. Admittedly with the cheapest of the cheap Chinese pianos he does have a point. He also seems to question the longevity of non-Japanese built Yamahas; something which nobody should really be able to do since they've not been around long enough to judge, but the signs are there that quality of these is fine. It's worth noting that the cheapest new Yamahas are actually Indonesian, not Chinese these days.

To sum up, you need to choose your used U1 or U3 very carefully, and get an independent technician around to take a shufty.

[MarkGoodwinPianos]

I found this topic whilst searching Google for "Music Brokers" as I'm trying to find their website. Not sure if they have one. I then spotted my shop name on here so thought I'd chime in with a wee reply.

I'm constantly striving to make sure my information is accurate and with that in mind I'm open to feedback. A piano shop emailed me the other day complaining that his customers were armed with too much information when they go to his shop. He thinks they got the information from me and his advice to me was...

Too much information sometimes is a bad thing

I have to say I work on a different principle to that. I try to give MAXIMUM information so that the customer is empowered to make a sensible choice.

PianoGuy, I'm certainly trying to be a good egg, I'm glad that comes across. I come from a piano playing background, so for me it is a case of "music first, business second" and with that in mine OH BOY am I lacking some basic business skills. But I'm learning as I go along about margins (I used to give them away), forecasting (what date is Christmas again?) stock control (shall I wait until the shop is empty and THEN order more?), cashflow (Dad, will you lend me a grand?), fast turnaround (shop full of slow-selling Bechstein grands anyone?), shop presentation (I'm still terrible at this one) and customer service. The only one of the above that I feel I was automatically really good at was the last one, customer service. The rest, I was totally green at when I started in 2003 and I'm slowly picking the other bits up as I go along.

Thankfully the only things from the above list that matter to the customers is customer service and in my opinion that is what what has carried me this far and what will hopefully carry me through what promises to be a tricky 2009 & 2010.

I'm thinking of getting back into modestly priced, UK sourced and restored Bechstein grand pianos. I had SOME success with those when I started (in my parents garage) but with the strong Euro, I can't send them to Poland and to be honest, I was never that comfortable sending them anyway. I know a good polishing shop and a good restorer, both are not too far from me, so I'm thinking to test that water in 2009 because at the moment, I'm perhaps too specialised in the U1 and U3 market which is of course a flooded market and currently very shaky due to the Japan Vs Britain exchange rate. Yikes!

So I need to "expand my portfolio" (see I told you I was learning) and am wondering about stocking some traditional designed pianos such as Kemble. I've never been in a position to sell new pianos before but I moved to my first main rd showroom earlier this year so I probably do qualify. I've applied for the Arts Council "take it away" scheme this year so that should be fun if I get accepted (any tips on how to pass the "secret visit" from their secret agent?).

So I MIGHT try talking to some manufacturers of known-brand new pianos (Yamaha/Kemble/Kawai) in 2009 and see how that goes? But if margins are terrible on new pianos, maybe that's more hassle than it's worth? I should probably get myself over to Musikmesse too, shake some hands and see what the latest trends are.

Well this post was only supposed to be around 2 paragraphs long (I didn't want to overdo it) but in the end, I've overdone it, whoops! Sorry you had to read through all this.

Final Question aimed at the techs:
In terms of sales what kind of pianos do you think are most suited to be reliable during a recession? I know I need to broaden my portfolio but I'm not sure which direction I should go in. I've had no success with digital or new Chinese stuff AT ALL so I'm definitely looking to stick with acoustic pianos only. Preferably with 500% profit margins (just joking haha) and nice reliable instruments that will make customers smile. I quite enjoy the sub-£1000 market where customers just want a basic piano, fully working from a reliable source (that's me) and they don't mind a few scratches as long as the piano is good. But sourcing those kind of piano isn't too easy without doing a lot of legwork.

OK I'm going to shut up now.
Sorry to blab on for so long.

[jwillans]

Hi Mark,

First off, music brokers website:

http://www.musicbrokers.nl

Second. We've corresponded regarding a U3 and I'm impressed with your customer service. Having said that, I've decided for the time being not to go down the U3 route.

I'm afraid I can't really answer your question about which business strategy is best. Times are hard at the moment and a piano is a luxury item by any measure. But I think consumers are more knowledgable than they have ever been about pianos thanks to the Internet and books like Larry Fine's. I would hope this makes them more inclined to pay extra for quality and customer service.

What I do know is that it is better to be a master of one trade rather than a jack of all trades. You have built some momentum with your reconditioned Yamaha sales and I would have thought that sticking to that would be a valid strategy. Even if there are more players in the market, the key is offering value beyond the competition - not necessarily in terms of cost savings. Often this comes from sitting back and taking a careful look at the markets and it needs. For example, of the top of my head, building a relationship with piano teachers/music schools and offering discounts/rental schemes to their students. I'm sure there are lots of other ways.

James

[MarkGoodwinPianos]

Hi Jwillans,
Thanks for your post and suggestions.
Good luck with whatever instrument you end up buying, I'm sure you'll make a good choice

Cheers
Mark

[jwillans]

Hi Jwillans,
Thanks for your post and suggestions.
Good luck with whatever instrument you end up buying, I'm sure you'll make a good choice

Cheers
Mark

Thanks - I am exploring the route of having the Bechstein rebuilt.

James

[MarkGoodwinPianos]

Marvellous.
Me too (I just bought one privately). Drop me an email if you want to know who I'm using.

[mdw]

But I'm learning as I go along about margins (I used to give them away),

The problem you might have is that as some one who " gave them away" most reputable distributors might want to stay away from you. They already have shops holding their stock and some if not lots of those retailers might stop selling their pianos if they start suppling a price slasher. Simple reason, why should the retailer hold the stock it just to act as free showroom for you. Now is the time for integrity in this trade from retailers and distributors alike.
Flitting from one thing to another looking for a quick profit is not the way to go, long term you have to build a reputation for a product and know what you are doing. You say " But sourcing those kind of piano isn't too easy without doing a lot of legwork" well thats life, get your shoes on and do the legwork. A lot of the dealers who will survive the next few years are those who tune and repair as well as we look after the customer long term. I dont just want the quick profit on the sale and never to see them again. I want to tune their pianos for the next 30 years and thats the legwork for a lot of us.

The possable reason the digitals didnt do so well is on ebay you are about 25% more expensive than someone selling the same digital piano.

[MarkGoodwinPianos]

Thanks for your comments

[Mark Marx]

Hi Mark, I had the pleasure of playing my first U1 today. A rather tatty woodchip case but a very impressive sound, the "middle" (I'm sure there's a fancy Italian name for it!) pedal gave such a mellow tone that it was like two pianos in one.

Unfortunately the piano was not for sale so I am now looking to see if this piano was typical of all U1s. I was told it was over 10 years old, do newer ones sound similar?


I live in France at the moment, I like your approach to doing business and it reflects the way I like to run my business as a musician. Are there any ways of buying from you and having the piano delivered?

I am currently renovating the basement of my house which is where my studio will be (it's currently in the attic with a distinct lack of piano) and so I would be looking to buy sometime early next year.

I am often in the UK for meetingsand could perhaps come and try one but if most U1s sound similar I wouldn't be against buying one on your recommendation.


Thanks for now,
Mark Marx

[mdw]

[Model V]

The problem you might have is that as some one who " gave them away" most reputable distributors might want to stay away from you. They already have shops holding their stock and some if not lots of those retailers might stop selling their pianos if they start suppling a price slasher...

Not sure how helpful that comment was. From my reading of Mark's post he was describing his learning process in the commercial world in a self-deprecating way; not giving us the inside info on his business strategy. His reply was gracious in the extreme.

[MarkGoodwinPianos]

Hi Mark, I had the pleasure of playing my first U1 today

Good to take that first step isn't it?

the "middle" (I'm sure there's a fancy Italian name for it!) pedal gave such a mellow tone that it was like two pianos in one.

Yep, those middle pedals are certainly very useful. As far as I know they just have a bog standard English name... wait for it..... THE PRACTICE PEDAL. Or if you'd prefer that in Italian, pratiquer la pédale (thanks Google ).

I live in France at the moment [...] Are there any ways of buying from you and having the piano delivered? [...] I am often in the UK for meetings and could perhaps come and try one but if most U1s sound similar I wouldn't be against buying one on your recommendation.

It is always better to visit, but I have plenty of happy customers who decided to let me choose one for them. There was a chap from Finland who bought a U3 from me this year without visiting. It took us 80 emails to complete the sale. Read the feedback (and photo) he sent me by Clicking Here. If you are worried about buying internationally without first visiting, that page is worth a read.

I've just sent you a Private Message via this forum, let me know if it doesn't get through.
Thanks for your comments Mark Marx

Mark

[Mark Marx]

Hi Mark, I had the pleasure of playing my first U1 today

Good to take that first step isn't it?

the "middle" (I'm sure there's a fancy Italian name for it!) pedal gave such a mellow tone that it was like two pianos in one.

Yep, those middle pedals are certainly very useful. As far as I know they just have a bog standard English name... wait for it..... THE PRACTICE PEDAL. Or if you'd prefer that in Italian, pratiquer la pédale (thanks Google ).

I live in France at the moment [...] Are there any ways of buying from you and having the piano delivered? [...] I am often in the UK for meetings and could perhaps come and try one but if most U1s sound similar I wouldn't be against buying one on your recommendation.

It is always better to visit, but I have plenty of happy customers who decided to let me choose one for them. There was a chap from Finland who bought a U3 from me this year without visiting. It took us 80 emails to complete the sale. Read the feedback (and photo) he sent me by Clicking Here. If you are worried about buying internationally without first visiting, that page is worth a read.

I've just sent you a Private Message via this forum, let me know if it doesn't get through.
Thanks for your comments Mark Marx

Mark

Thanks for the info...sorry no PM though

About a year ago I tried out a Bechstein Millennium and was blown away. At around £10k though it was beyond my budget. I was pleasantly surprised that a good tone could be had at a more reasonable price.

"The Practice Pedal" eh? I really liked it as another texture so I'm pleased to know that it's a standard feature.

I don't know what you covered in your PM or how you can get it to me. I can give you an email address if you want to send it there.

[MarkGoodwinPianos]

Hmm, PM sent just now.
Failing that, you can reach me on markgoodwinpianos@gmail.com
Failing THAT, send a pigeon to Oldham, I'm sure it'll find me