Hi everyone
This is my first post. I'm a complete beginner, started lessons last week, and am currently looking to buy my first piano. For various reasons, I'm looking for a silent piano:
- Traditional case
- Factory fitted silent system (as opposed to retrofitted)
- Not too worried about MIDI on the silent box
- Budget around £3,500
Thus far been looking at:
- Yamaha B2, B3 perhaps P114 (traditional case)
- Kawai K2, also saw nearly new K18 with silent - seemed OK
These constraints would seem to make the choice easier, but it's still proving a real headache and I'd be so grateful for some help:
1. So first question, any thoughts on the Yam B2, B3 and P114, and the Kawai B series?
2. Would it be better to go for a bigger, but 'budget range' B3 rather than a smaller, but I guess higher quality P series?
3. Where are these models made, and does it matter?
4. I've read a lot about the brighter tones of Yamahas compared to Kawais, but trying the former in a number of showrooms, they seem pretty mellow, so are they voiced that way, is it more a tendency that comes out with ownership and use, or is it a difference my unexperienced ear is unlikely to hear?
5. One dealer made a big deal about K series Kawais being better than B Yamahas because they had solid spruce soundboards and the Yamaha's had laminated ones. 'Yup, sounds persuasive' I thought - until I read somewhere else that laminated is actually better, which threw me, so I've no idea now..?
6. I've understood that getting a technician to check any secondhand piano (dealer or private) is very wise, but am I right in assuming that isn't really necessary when buying new?
What's making the shortlisting difficult is because I'm after something quite specific, I've yet to try even two contenders (the actual ones I might buy as opposed to the same model, or the same model without silent...etc) next to one another. Comparing two different pianos a hundred or so miles and a few days apart is very difficult for a complete novice.
Basically, I'm a hyper-cautious consumer every time I spend over fifty quid, researching everything to minute detail, so this piano purchase is getting stressful. When I make my decision I want to feel that the 'Yamaha XX' or the 'Kawai ZZ' I choose is a perfectly sensible choice, a damn good starter piano... in other words, a 'difficult to go wrong with one of those' choice.
Also, given my anxiety, good service during and after purchase as well as a good price is important. Any feedback on dealers along the M4 between me (in South Wales) and London would be appreciated. I'm starting to think I may need to trawl around London dealers to find what I'm after...
Your help would be much appreciated. That includes telling me if I'm just being a over-cautious fusspot.
K
My First Piano
Moderators: Feg, Gill the Piano, Melodytune
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kreshakara
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Given that you have started lessons... you need to get a piano as soon as possible... given that the silent option seems to be such an important feature - have you considered an electronic piano with fully weighted keys. From what I understand - but I do not really know - these 'silent' mechanisms do alter the 'touch' of an acoustic piano... and the sound through the headphones is not so great - and is not like an acoustic piano...
Thus - if you get one of these electronic things... (a) you have something to practice on right now and (b) you can look for an acoustic piano at your leisure - with the freedom of not having this silent mechanism already fitted?
Thus - if you get one of these electronic things... (a) you have something to practice on right now and (b) you can look for an acoustic piano at your leisure - with the freedom of not having this silent mechanism already fitted?
I'm certainly no fan of electric pianos but Crispin's advice sounds sensible in your position. There's no point in rushing the purchase of an acoustic instrument - you might end up with that 'if only I'd taken more time' feeling and that's an expensive mistake to make. Buying a piano should be a pleasure above all else. So should playing one, of course!
"Each day grow older, and learn something new."
Solon (c. 630 - c. 500 B.C.), Greek Statesman and Reformer
Solon (c. 630 - c. 500 B.C.), Greek Statesman and Reformer
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Gill the Piano
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I find no difference in touch on a silent piano. The digital sound doesn't sound as nice - but then it's not an acoustic sound, so you can't really compare them. I would always go for the touch of an acoustic - you're learning the piano, not an electronic keyboard. I think it was Marky on here who compared the real piano to a manual car and an electic one to an automatic; if you learn to drive a manual you can drive an automatic. But if you learn in an automatic, you need another test!
Just to be clear - I am not a fan of these electronic pianos either - but I do have the luxury of not living on top of neighbours - so the piano only annoys other family members...
I also have never played a silent piano - but there is a thread:http://www.uk-piano.org/piano-forums/vi ... php?t=6303 where these silent pianos are discussed:
A quote from Grenache:
Indeed I agree with Gill that sooner (or later) you will want an acoustic piano ... but since circumstances appear to indicate that some fraction of your piano playing will be done in silent mode ... to get a good keyboard with weighted keys would appear to be a possible way to go in the short term. As Openwood says - choosing a piano is a fun experience - take your time and enjoy it.
Keeps us informed - it seems that many of the forum addicts here enjoy the spending of other people's cash....
I also have never played a silent piano - but there is a thread:http://www.uk-piano.org/piano-forums/vi ... php?t=6303 where these silent pianos are discussed:
A quote from Grenache:
A quote from Openwood:The touch of the Kawai with the silent option was exteremely heavy and playing it was very hard work. Although the Yamaha was slightly heaver with the silent compared to the same model without, it was still comforable to play. In the end I chose the U1 with the SG silent option, and I'm happy with my choice.
Reading this thread - I think it would be wise to be cautious of these silent pianos.Whatever Silent system you eventually get I would make a point of asking what happens if things go wrong, and if the salesman tells you it won't go wrong please do knee him in the nuts with my compliments.
Indeed I agree with Gill that sooner (or later) you will want an acoustic piano ... but since circumstances appear to indicate that some fraction of your piano playing will be done in silent mode ... to get a good keyboard with weighted keys would appear to be a possible way to go in the short term. As Openwood says - choosing a piano is a fun experience - take your time and enjoy it.
Keeps us informed - it seems that many of the forum addicts here enjoy the spending of other people's cash....
Re: My First Piano
What'll make it difficult is that nobody is likely to be carrying both Kawai and Yamaha Silent models in the same showroom.kreshakara wrote:
What's making the shortlisting difficult is because I'm after something quite specific, I've yet to try even two contenders (the actual ones I might buy as opposed to the same model, or the same model without silent...etc) next to one another. Comparing two different pianos a hundred or so miles and a few days apart is very difficult for a complete novice.
Why not try Kemble Silent. Same fitted Silent unit as a Yam, but with a better soundboard than a b-series and MIDI (whether you like it or not!) and a more comprehensive range of casework options.
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kreshakara
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Thanks for your thoughts. I'm a little surprised that silent pianos seemed to get a slightly negative spin in just a few replies. I've often read the advice, buy the best piano you can afford'. Surely you're not suggesting that a digital is better than a silent?
Re-reading my original post I may have given the wrong impression that I felt cornered into buying something I didn't feel happy about. That's not the case at all - I'm extremely excited about having my traditional style black shiny silent new piano that I can bash around on acoustically in the daytime and practice diligently at 4am with earphones. I think I just want to feel confident that the type I end up getting is a reasonable starter piano (and I'm focussing on the acoustic base model as opposed to the plusses or minuses of a silent, which I already understand and accept). And of course, I won't be buying any piano unless I feel good about it.
I started off with digital pianos, in fact at first, that's what I thought I would be getting, but I'm just knew I wouldn't be happy with one. I'm sure it's a daft prejudice, but I just don't like them and didn't think it would be wise to start a venture of such importance to me with something I felt rubbish about. I stress that this is just the way I feel and I would hate to discourage anyone on the verge of getting one. It's also financial. I'd want to get at least a Yamaha CLP320 which was the best part of £1k, and I decided I'd prefer to put that towards my first acoustic piano which I'm sure I'd start wishing I'd gone for as soon as the Clavinova arrived. Unfortunately I don't have the room for both, and since I have the funds for a silent, it seemed the best way to go.
I completely agree, spending a lot of money on an acoustic with a less durable electronic component is more of a risk, but I just feel that a silent suits my situation so well that it's worth it. It gives me the acoustic piano I crave plus the freedom to practice when I want. As I'm currently free in the daytimes, I will likely be playing it acoustically most of the time.
Re-reading my original post I may have given the wrong impression that I felt cornered into buying something I didn't feel happy about. That's not the case at all - I'm extremely excited about having my traditional style black shiny silent new piano that I can bash around on acoustically in the daytime and practice diligently at 4am with earphones. I think I just want to feel confident that the type I end up getting is a reasonable starter piano (and I'm focussing on the acoustic base model as opposed to the plusses or minuses of a silent, which I already understand and accept). And of course, I won't be buying any piano unless I feel good about it.
I started off with digital pianos, in fact at first, that's what I thought I would be getting, but I'm just knew I wouldn't be happy with one. I'm sure it's a daft prejudice, but I just don't like them and didn't think it would be wise to start a venture of such importance to me with something I felt rubbish about. I stress that this is just the way I feel and I would hate to discourage anyone on the verge of getting one. It's also financial. I'd want to get at least a Yamaha CLP320 which was the best part of £1k, and I decided I'd prefer to put that towards my first acoustic piano which I'm sure I'd start wishing I'd gone for as soon as the Clavinova arrived. Unfortunately I don't have the room for both, and since I have the funds for a silent, it seemed the best way to go.
I completely agree, spending a lot of money on an acoustic with a less durable electronic component is more of a risk, but I just feel that a silent suits my situation so well that it's worth it. It gives me the acoustic piano I crave plus the freedom to practice when I want. As I'm currently free in the daytimes, I will likely be playing it acoustically most of the time.
*I'm* not!!kreshakara wrote:Thanks for your thoughts. I'm a little surprised that silent pianos seemed to get a slightly negative spin in just a few replies. I've often read the advice, buy the best piano you can afford'. Surely you're not suggesting that a digital is better than a silent?
Silents are a superb combination. Be prepared in about 20 years' time though, for the digital section to be u/s. When it finally dies, the acoustic piano section will live on!
To be honest though, the first thing to die on a digital is the keyboard. Since the key operation of a Yamaha-type Silent is done optically, I reckon the digital section of a Silent piano will be longer-lived than most stand-alone digitals.
Kreshakara
I did not mean to imply that digital is better than silent... and certainly the touch of a digital is completely different than an acoustic.... and I know you will want the acoustic touch in some months time.
However - you did appear to be painting yourself into a corner by demanding that you get a factory fitted silent system etc etc. Re reading other posts it appears that there is a big variation in the heaviness of touch between Kawai pianos - what I was trying to suggest is that you should choose an acoustic piano that you really like - touch and tone. These silent systems are not so cheap - and maybe you can get a weighted key keyboard thing while you look around for the perfect piano...
The bottom line: make sure that you take delivery of the piano that you choose - not one delivered from some warehouse. Do not be tempted to order a piano - sight unseen - so that it comes with a factory fitted silent system. Make sure that you know who will service this silent system in case of breakdown..
I agree - there is nothing better than a shiny black piano acoustic piano - I did not mean to discourage you!
I did not mean to imply that digital is better than silent... and certainly the touch of a digital is completely different than an acoustic.... and I know you will want the acoustic touch in some months time.
However - you did appear to be painting yourself into a corner by demanding that you get a factory fitted silent system etc etc. Re reading other posts it appears that there is a big variation in the heaviness of touch between Kawai pianos - what I was trying to suggest is that you should choose an acoustic piano that you really like - touch and tone. These silent systems are not so cheap - and maybe you can get a weighted key keyboard thing while you look around for the perfect piano...
The bottom line: make sure that you take delivery of the piano that you choose - not one delivered from some warehouse. Do not be tempted to order a piano - sight unseen - so that it comes with a factory fitted silent system. Make sure that you know who will service this silent system in case of breakdown..
I agree - there is nothing better than a shiny black piano acoustic piano - I did not mean to discourage you!
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kreshakara
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- Joined: 24 Nov 2008, 17:10
- Location: Cardiff, Wales
Thanks both. I'm reassured that I'm taking the right approach.
It might be useful for anyone else considering a silent to mention why I prefer factory fitted. I tried a couple of retro-fitted ones (a Kawai as it happens and a something else I can't recall). The digital sound was as reasonable as you'd expect, but the touch (when in digital mode) was very different to acoustic mode (and normal pianos generally), I assumed that was as good as it gets until I tried a Yamaha factory fitted. The sound was much the same but I just could not tell the difference with the touch, the keys felt exactly the same (to me anyway) as when it was in digital mode. So if I'm spending a lot extra for the silent, it makes sense to get one with a system that feels as good as possible. In fact, the Yamaha I tried was pretty much perfect in every way (tone, touch, silent system, colour, price), apart from being the wrong style case. It serves me right for being fussy, but it tells me my piano might appear in front of me sometime soon.
Returning to one of my original questions, do you think it's better to go for the bigger sound board but budget range B3, or a smaller but higher quality P114? I mean these models generally rather than the silent versions. Is the P series indeed higher quality, or are you just paying extra for a 'made in the UK' piano? I believe the B series has the laminate soundboard whereas the Ps upwards are solid.
Thanks so much for engaging with me and taking the time to read my rather verbose posts. I'm new to 'forum' thing so hopefully my wit and brevity will sharpen...
It might be useful for anyone else considering a silent to mention why I prefer factory fitted. I tried a couple of retro-fitted ones (a Kawai as it happens and a something else I can't recall). The digital sound was as reasonable as you'd expect, but the touch (when in digital mode) was very different to acoustic mode (and normal pianos generally), I assumed that was as good as it gets until I tried a Yamaha factory fitted. The sound was much the same but I just could not tell the difference with the touch, the keys felt exactly the same (to me anyway) as when it was in digital mode. So if I'm spending a lot extra for the silent, it makes sense to get one with a system that feels as good as possible. In fact, the Yamaha I tried was pretty much perfect in every way (tone, touch, silent system, colour, price), apart from being the wrong style case. It serves me right for being fussy, but it tells me my piano might appear in front of me sometime soon.
Returning to one of my original questions, do you think it's better to go for the bigger sound board but budget range B3, or a smaller but higher quality P114? I mean these models generally rather than the silent versions. Is the P series indeed higher quality, or are you just paying extra for a 'made in the UK' piano? I believe the B series has the laminate soundboard whereas the Ps upwards are solid.
Thanks so much for engaging with me and taking the time to read my rather verbose posts. I'm new to 'forum' thing so hopefully my wit and brevity will sharpen...
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kreshakara
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incidentally, I may be misunderstanding you when you say 'weighted keyboard'. Do you mean a proper digital piano such as a Clavinova or something else...? I don't think I want to spend a grand on something that I might only use for a month, particularly if it's something electronic.
I'm currently practicing on a keyboard attached to my Mac. The keys are the same size and colour as a piano and make the right note when you hit them. The keys have variable velocity but the similarity ends there. Still, the Thomas Tallis canon I'm playing sounds better than it did on the keyboard printed on cardboard that came with a book someone gave me.
Before I started lessons, I had an arrangement to practice on a piano in a room at an arts centre which wasn't being used in the daytime. Now I've actually started, I've been told I can't use it which I'm a bit cross about and I'd be so sad if I have to cancel my lessons until I get something.
I'm currently practicing on a keyboard attached to my Mac. The keys are the same size and colour as a piano and make the right note when you hit them. The keys have variable velocity but the similarity ends there. Still, the Thomas Tallis canon I'm playing sounds better than it did on the keyboard printed on cardboard that came with a book someone gave me.
Before I started lessons, I had an arrangement to practice on a piano in a room at an arts centre which wasn't being used in the daytime. Now I've actually started, I've been told I can't use it which I'm a bit cross about and I'd be so sad if I have to cancel my lessons until I get something.
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kreshakara
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- Joined: 24 Nov 2008, 17:10
- Location: Cardiff, Wales
incidentally, I may be misunderstanding you when you say 'weighted keyboard'. Do you mean a proper digital piano such as a Clavinova or something else...? I don't think I want to spend a grand on something that I might only use for a month, particularly if it's something electronic.
I'm currently practicing on a keyboard attached to my Mac. The keys are the same size and colour as a piano and make the right note when you hit them. The keys have variable velocity but the similarity ends there. Still, the Thomas Tallis canon I'm playing sounds better than it did on the keyboard printed on cardboard that came with a book someone gave me.
Before I started lessons, I had an arrangement to practice on a piano in a room at an arts centre which wasn't being used in the daytime. Now I've actually started, I've been told I can't use it which I'm a bit cross about and I'd be so sad if I have to cancel my lessons until I get something.
I'm currently practicing on a keyboard attached to my Mac. The keys are the same size and colour as a piano and make the right note when you hit them. The keys have variable velocity but the similarity ends there. Still, the Thomas Tallis canon I'm playing sounds better than it did on the keyboard printed on cardboard that came with a book someone gave me.
Before I started lessons, I had an arrangement to practice on a piano in a room at an arts centre which wasn't being used in the daytime. Now I've actually started, I've been told I can't use it which I'm a bit cross about and I'd be so sad if I have to cancel my lessons until I get something.
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Gill the Piano
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I'm a complete beginner too, but still have the pleasure of being biased! I'd definitely recommend an acoustic if you can house it; I get terribly distracted by all those added bits and bobs, when all you want is to recreate the great instrument itself. My budget was MUCH less than yours, but I still managed a gorgeous acoustic with a practice pedal (which, by the way, was a key feature I wanted before I bought it, but now, I hardly ever use it).
Be brave and look 2nd hand, find yourself a local tuner and tell them what you're looking for, then they can look over it for you and to help maintain it. Try before you buy.
Good luck,
Jan
Be brave and look 2nd hand, find yourself a local tuner and tell them what you're looking for, then they can look over it for you and to help maintain it. Try before you buy.
Good luck,
Jan
Actually I am not sure exactly what weighted keys are - I see them mentioned on the forums as stop gap solution - if you enter weighted keys into ebay - you will se that they start at about 200 GBP ... so I am not suggesting you drop a grand on this item.
Certainly such an instrument will be better than your Mac keyboard but will not match even the most basic acoustic piano ... however I suspect that the more you look and play and touch the pianos in the showrooms that you will visit - the more confidence you will feel when you find 'the piano'. My suggestion was more to take the pressure off you so that you have time to make an informed and relaxed choice - it is a big investment and whatever you choose will stay with you for 10 years or longer.
Regarding your other question - I am sure that others will tell you the inside deal on these laminated sound boards .... however if the choice was mine - I would go with the solid soundboard even if the size was smaller. Be warned that most people end up spending more on a piano than they originally set as their maximum budget.
Certainly such an instrument will be better than your Mac keyboard but will not match even the most basic acoustic piano ... however I suspect that the more you look and play and touch the pianos in the showrooms that you will visit - the more confidence you will feel when you find 'the piano'. My suggestion was more to take the pressure off you so that you have time to make an informed and relaxed choice - it is a big investment and whatever you choose will stay with you for 10 years or longer.
Regarding your other question - I am sure that others will tell you the inside deal on these laminated sound boards .... however if the choice was mine - I would go with the solid soundboard even if the size was smaller. Be warned that most people end up spending more on a piano than they originally set as their maximum budget.
Nutroast wrote:
Be brave and look 2nd hand, find yourself a local tuner and tell them what you're looking for, then they can look over it for you and to help maintain it. Try before you buy.
Good luck,
Jan
Unlikely to find a Silent Piano secondhand, and sadly most tuners don't have a clue about electronics.
Buy a new one and get the most up to date OS on the digital section and 2 year warranty too. The acoustic piano will have a 5 year warranty, or if you go for a Kemble, you could get a 10 year warranty if you buy from a 'Centre of Excellence'.
Re: My First Piano
I must have been quite fortunate, then. I tried both in Smiths in Paisley.PianoGuy wrote:
What'll make it difficult is that nobody is likely to be carrying both Kawai and Yamaha Silent models in the same showroom.
Actually, so I don't mislead, mine doesn't have a silent option, it's a practice pedal, no electronics alowed! The sound is "muffled" by about two-thirds when you use it, which is absolutely fine for most practice, but doesn't let you really hear expressions very well. When I bought mine, I saw several others for sale with the same mechanism.
Jan
Jan
Kreshakara, re “…hyper-cautious consumer…” in your original post, I think I understand. However, don’t spend too long on the analysis. Repeating wise words, ‘get out there and try them!’
I’ve spent so long time refining a shortlist of uprights, hoping it would make selection easier and to prevent buying a ‘pup’.
(My aim is to upgrade from an old baby grand whilst reducing the space used in the lounge. To me, my baby sounds quite nice, but the action is getting tired)
Anyway, recently, after a prolonged analysis of forum comment, opinion, dealer pricing etc, I had chance opportunity to try two of the uprights on my shortlist at a dealer [a new Kemble Cons and Kemble K121].
What a disappointment - I just didn’t like the ‘boxy’ and ‘muffled’ sound. Although the actions were factory smooth, even, etc., I didn’t actually care for then too much either. I tried a few others in the shop and they were similar.
Before leaving the dealer I briefly explained my thoughts. He said the sound from an upright will sound like that because it’s effectively coming out of a wooden box and off the wall, and grands will tend to sound less boxy. Seems fair enough, but a comment not mentioned too much.
And after all that analysis - I was so disappointed! Okay, before all you dealers out there slate me, I admit I haven’t done ‘the tour’ yet, my sample is not nesscessarily representative in general, and I do need to try a lot more. My point is that I could have bought based purely on analysis and made a big mistake!
Crikey, I’m now going to cast my net far wider, baby grands included, but only by ‘getting out there and try them!’
Hope that helps a little..
I’ve spent so long time refining a shortlist of uprights, hoping it would make selection easier and to prevent buying a ‘pup’.
(My aim is to upgrade from an old baby grand whilst reducing the space used in the lounge. To me, my baby sounds quite nice, but the action is getting tired)
Anyway, recently, after a prolonged analysis of forum comment, opinion, dealer pricing etc, I had chance opportunity to try two of the uprights on my shortlist at a dealer [a new Kemble Cons and Kemble K121].
What a disappointment - I just didn’t like the ‘boxy’ and ‘muffled’ sound. Although the actions were factory smooth, even, etc., I didn’t actually care for then too much either. I tried a few others in the shop and they were similar.
Before leaving the dealer I briefly explained my thoughts. He said the sound from an upright will sound like that because it’s effectively coming out of a wooden box and off the wall, and grands will tend to sound less boxy. Seems fair enough, but a comment not mentioned too much.
And after all that analysis - I was so disappointed! Okay, before all you dealers out there slate me, I admit I haven’t done ‘the tour’ yet, my sample is not nesscessarily representative in general, and I do need to try a lot more. My point is that I could have bought based purely on analysis and made a big mistake!
Crikey, I’m now going to cast my net far wider, baby grands included, but only by ‘getting out there and try them!’
Hope that helps a little..
Try them both and see what you prefer. Personally I'm not a great fan of the b-range sound, but build quality is very good for the money.kreshakara wrote: Returning to one of my original questions, do you think it's better to go for the bigger sound board but budget range B3, or a smaller but higher quality P114? I mean these models generally rather than the silent versions. Is the P series indeed higher quality, or are you just paying extra for a 'made in the UK' piano? I believe the B series has the laminate soundboard whereas the Ps upwards are solid.
The b1 and b2 make more sense for those on a budget than the b3 which has many rivals which can better it at the price, not least a *good* s/h U1. We're getting into difficult territory with these though because there are so many tired old shite ones on the market. A b3 can be better than many poor examples of U1, but a good U1 will blow it out of the water. A smaller P series or Kemble could do likewise.