Upright or baby grand ?

CraigLyon · Post by **CraigLyon** » 20 Oct 2008, 17:05

Hi all

At the moment I currently own an Apollo upright piano and due to a recent house extension I am looking to upgrade the piano. I have been looking at both baby grand pianos (5 ft 1 to 6ft) and upright's.

My main concern is that someone has informed me that it is pretty pointless purchasing a baby grand piano unless the piano is at least 6 ft, anything smaller will produce an inferior sound, require more tuning and generally, will require more servicing. The same person has recommended that it would be more beneficial to purchase a very good upright piano as opposed to a "small" baby grand piano.

I would certainly welcome your thoughts on this matter.

TIA

Craig

Descombes · Post by **Descombes** » 20 Oct 2008, 17:10

Sounds to me as if Craiglyon has got it spot on!!

I'm sure the technical folk will give him the full reasoning!

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 20 Oct 2008, 17:27

Short fat piano = short fat strings
Short fat strings = short fat sound

DON'T GET A BABY GRAND!

This detailed analytical information is brought to you courtesy of three years at college...

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 20 Oct 2008, 17:51

Yeah, it's a no brainer. Get a really good upright.

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 20 Oct 2008, 17:55

Having said that, I know several good teachers who have Yamaha C2s or equivalent 'just under 6ft' grands and I have to say that they sound pretty good.

mdw · Post by **mdw** » 20 Oct 2008, 18:50

By buying a baby grand you will end up paying twice as much as the big upright for a slightly inferior sound, better repetition and some where to put your pictures!!!!
I would buy the upright, a nice shelf and pocket the rest of the cash. My experience is baby grands are bought by beginners with loads of cash and people for whom style is more important than substance.

joseph · Post by **joseph** » 20 Oct 2008, 18:56

...I agree with the above except for:

Steinway model M, 5 feet 6 great sound, great touch
Steinway model O, 5 feet 10, wonderful little thing!
Bluthner Model 10 5 feet 6, very well balanced, lovely piano

that said THESE pianos cost around the 40K mark (less for the Bluthner)

Yamaha C1, C2 are very well made pianos with a reasonable sound in the bass and I'd prefer one of them over an upright. The Kawai RX2 is also lovely.

I guess the point is that you have to spend the right money to get the right sound with small pianos.

To all the technical folk - these are just my own opinions, and the particular examples of the pianos listed above that I have played have all been very nice, for all I know the majority may be turkeys and I have just been lucky!

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 20 Oct 2008, 19:42

Agreed Joseph... I would say that any new Yam above the GC1 would be worth considering.

Also don't forget a nicely rebuilt Blüthner 4'11". A pre-war one. Style 4. Not the ballsiest, but a lovely piano!

ennjaydee · Post by **ennjaydee** » 20 Oct 2008, 23:47

I have just been through the same debate. See topic subject "Bluthner Model A" on this forum. Having tried several (old part/restored) baby grands up to about 5'6" I decided money was better spent on a good (new or nearly new) upright. You will see there is lots of great advice on quality uprights from regular forum contributors. At the end of the day it's down to what you like - I tried everything on my shortlist and that involved visiting several dealers, more than once. Enjoy! Good luck.

joseph · Post by **joseph** » 21 Oct 2008, 08:03

- then, there was this little Rich Lipp baby grand that had been restored that I played. It had its original soundboard but the price reflected that (it was about 4000 pounds) and it sounded really sweet, with a warm bass, not particularly powerful but very very nice....

As a general rule you can say that the bigger the piano the better, but there is a bit more to consider than that. I'd rather have a Steinway model M or a Bluthner Model 10 than say a 7 feet long Pearl River, because the design and build qualities of these small expensive pianos make up for their lack in size, whereas the Pearl River could be a bit on the unfinished side.

pianotechman · Post by **pianotechman** » 21 Oct 2008, 15:04

Most of us all seem to have the same convictions regarding 'Baby' grands it would appear.
With exeptions such as the old Steinway 'O' and Bluthner style 4, both very nice small grands. Don't forget folks, these pianos also had decent roller actions fitted, unlike most of the under 4ft baby grands that employed a simple spring & loop action. The loop frays, snaps then you've had it!!

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 21 Oct 2008, 16:10

Yes, I have to say I automatically thought of 1920s/30s English baby grands of no good pedigree, not the 'decent' or modern makes...you're reasonably safe with those, but you have to pay for that distinction!

pdossantos · Post by **pdossantos** » 22 Oct 2008, 10:42

I have to disagree, I was facing the same dillema, the Yamaha YUS3 or the Yamaha GC1 (5.3).
I played them both many times but came to the concusion that the sound of the GC1 was fuller and rounder and better sounding then the high quality upright. The touch is different, superiour on a grand and the sound comes towards you and fills the room instead of it hitting the wall (and sounding boxy) and it looks much better in the home than an upright let's not forget!

Decent manufactured smaller grands are fine for the home player.

This is my opinion only

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 22 Oct 2008, 19:31

pdossantos wrote:I have to disagree, I was facing the same dillema, the Yamaha YUS3 or the Yamaha GC1 (5.3).

My point exactly, see above! I think us tuners automatically think of the ghastly four-foot-nothing stumpy '30s things like Allisons, Challens and Hopkinsons with Simplex actions when the term 'baby' is applied to grands!

genaa · Post by **genaa** » 22 Oct 2008, 22:34

hehe the term 'baby' is extremely misleading. To some folks it means anything less than 5 ft - whilst to others it seems to mean anything less than a 9ft concert grand!

At the end of the day I guess you have to play a range of instruments within your size and financial constraints and pick the one you like the most

Happy shopping!

joseph · Post by **joseph** » 23 Oct 2008, 00:03

at school, the piano i teach on is a neumeyer grand, about 4 feet 6, from the 20s or 30s, you know the type. It has an atrocious action, the felts on the keybed must be completely worn out because the key goes down incredibly far, you have to press the key all the way down before it sounds, the pedals are hanging off - its repulsive. The keyboard is also about 6 inches too low down, its like a toy piano although it does have 85 notes. oh and the pedals dont work.

The uprights are just as bad if not worse. I wish they'd spend just a couple of grand on a half decent brodmann upright or wendl & lung - at least my shoulders and arms wouldn't ache when I played it.

ennjaydee · Post by **ennjaydee** » 23 Oct 2008, 09:40

I'm no expert but what I have learnt in the course of my own search is:
Grands have a gravity action, uprights are sprung, gravity is better by design but there will be good and bad examples of both, so go with the touch you like. In theory gravity allows greater sensitivity.
Depth of sound is related to length of string (and soundboard quality); baby grands can be inferior to decent uprights but .. there are implementations and implementations .. so go with one you like.
Bluthner Style 4 (4'11") 1936, hit my shortlist. Roberts Pianos had one restored, 14k; Bluthner in London have similar fully rebuilt, 23k. Bosendorfer 5'7", Roberts, 16.5k also lovely. Steinway Model M (5'7"), Pianoforte, restrung, 15k, more powerful, less mellow, IMHO.
Used Yamaha's appear good value by comparison, provided made in Japan, albeit with different sound and touch. I found used models less than 5 years, better than older ones. Some dealers prefer Kawai equivalents.
You need to decide for an older piano how much restoration has been done and how much will be needed in the future. You may find a bargain but in most cases you'll get what you pay for - at least from a reputable dealer.
I chose a quality upright, with both sound and touch as good as, if not better than, smaller grands.
Decide budget, try, trust your judgement

pdossantos · Post by **pdossantos** » 23 Oct 2008, 17:23

Maybe the word 'baby' grand should not be used anymore.
Just 5,3 or 6 ect Grand piano

I don't know were that word comes from any way, there used to be parlor grand, boudoir grand etc..... why baby?

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 23 Oct 2008, 21:25

pdossantos wrote:Maybe the word 'baby' grand should not be used anymore.
Just 5,3 or 6 ect Grand piano

I don't know were that word comes from any way, there used to be parlor grand, boudoir grand etc..... why baby?

Bill on the History section will know when and who but I believe you can blame Broadwoods sales folk for that one they are the ones who first marketed the Baby Grand concept

Barrie,

joseph · Post by **joseph** » 24 Oct 2008, 21:18

I'm sure I've even heard the term 'arm chair grand' because it took up the same room space as a large arm chair - and that was their selling point. No doubt they sounded awful!

Marcus Roberts · Post by **Marcus Roberts** » 25 Oct 2008, 10:38

From my experience the truth is that it's the make of piano that counts. A baby grand made by Bluthner, Richard Lipp, Bosendorfer and some Broadwoods are really fine pianos. Some Yamahas are also excellent. Our favourite uprights are old restored ones by Grotrian Steinweg or Richard Lipp.

The action on a grand is usually superior to that of an upright as it has a better lever system, longer key and better damping system.

Please see our website for more information.

Regards

Marcus Roberts

joseph · Post by **joseph** » 25 Oct 2008, 18:06

agreed.

pianobrereton · Post by **pianobrereton** » 25 Oct 2008, 21:16

I think it was Challen who coined the name baby grand . Though Broadwoods were the first to us the term grand piano . Broadwoods small grands were called the model O elfin grand . In my experience of tuning baby grands they are not great instruments being so small and the bass is very dead , but then again they are now around 70 yrs old . I always think that you can really tell the difference after 6ft , under 6ft you would be better off with a really good upright.

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 25 Oct 2008, 21:59

joseph wrote:I'm sure I've even heard the term 'arm chair grand' because it took up the same room space as a large arm chair - and that was their selling point. No doubt they sounded awful!

That was the Allisonnette.
A. Allison's stumpy offering from the '30s.

Marcus Roberts · Post by **Marcus Roberts** » 27 Oct 2008, 11:08

Good Bluthner, Bosendorfer Lipp and Steinway, or Wendl and Lung (for inexpensive new ones) are undoubtedly better than good uprights for the reasons previously stated. Come and try some!

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 27 Oct 2008, 17:53

Marcus Roberts wrote:Good Bluthner, Bosendorfer Lipp and Steinway,

are undoubtedly better than good uprights for the reasons previously stated.

Aye! Good ones are.....

Unfortunately, since the quality of old ones is now just as dependent on the quality of the restoration or lack of it, than the quality of the original manufacturing it's impossible to generalise.

johnT · Post by **johnT** » 28 Oct 2008, 22:38

Go for the upright-unless you live in a concert hall.

joseph · Post by **joseph** » 29 Oct 2008, 20:10

but if you want a nice action, go for a top class baby grand. always better than an upright.

Andrea Larsen · Post by **Andrea Larsen** » 30 Oct 2008, 20:04

Ok so I havnt played a lot of pianos but I have listened to a few. The uprights I remember and the one I had were pretty basic, nothing special about the tone. The three baby grands I have tried were all pretty good but the best tone by far is my fathers Ronson. Beautifully made, (although the case is plain,) and can really send out the music, good volume, but sweet, deep velvety tone, no clashing on the ear drums, depends how its played of course. It has been neglected from a tuniung point of view for some time, years probably, as my father stopped playing as he got older, but to my suprise it is still in good heart and tune, which is not to say it would not benefit from attention now. 5 foot, full key board no problems, I could not think an upright would sound as good.But then I am biased having heard this one from childhood.Biggest problem is how to move it, where to put it, how to store it until family decides to sell or otherwise. Now its sentimental...but they do that to you! :

pdossantos · Post by **pdossantos** » 30 Oct 2008, 21:14

johnT wrote:Go for the upright-unless you live in a concert hall.

What? That is such nonsens, I live in a 'normal' house and have space to accomodate a grand piano, the sound is fantastic and it plays wonderfully, far better then any upright.
These words can only come out of the mouth from people who can't house or afford one, I am sorry, you really don't know what you talk about!

oops, did I let myself go???

joseph · Post by **joseph** » 30 Oct 2008, 22:40

well, perhaps a little heated dear, but you're right about not needing a huge house for a grand.

Also, an upright can be louder than a grand, because the sound can drum against the wall.

pdossantos · Post by **pdossantos** » 30 Oct 2008, 22:50

Exactly!
When I still had my upright I had more complaints from the neighbours , now they sometimes ask if I stopped playing. I then explain them the magic of grand piano physics

I am sorry if I got hysterical....

I will control myself and stay behind my grand next time

pianobrereton · Post by **pianobrereton** » 30 Oct 2008, 23:11

I think you haven't read the original thread. No one was saying that an upright is better than a Grand only that an upright is better than a baby grand .

Openwood · Post by **Openwood** » 30 Oct 2008, 23:11

Go for the upright-unless you live in a concert hall.

I'm so hardcore I sold my upright, got a C3 grand, and shoe-horned it into the middle of a tiny sitting room, getting rid of all other furniture in the process. So what if everyone now has to squeeze into the kitchen and there's nowhere for them to sit down? F*ck 'em.

PianoGuy · Post by **PianoGuy** » 31 Oct 2008, 08:29

Andrea Larsen wrote:Ok so I havnt played a lot of pianos but I have listened to a few. The uprights I remember and the one I had were pretty basic, nothing special about the tone. The three baby grands I have tried were all pretty good but the best tone by far is my fathers Ronson.

Well, that just goes to show how people differ. Every Ronson I've ever seen has had a poor tone and most seem to have some kind of bridge problem rendering at least a bit of the compass useless unless you have a good imagination. Since I've never seen a Ronson upright, only dozens of their small 5'0" grands I cannot compare, but any upright from Chappell, Challen, Rogers or Hopkinson would beat a Ronson grand to a bloody pulp in my opinion.

I have always imagined that the name was cockney rhyming slang. "Ronson Lighter = ??"

Andrea Larsen · Post by **Andrea Larsen** » 31 Oct 2008, 16:14

Thats a bit funny! When i was trying to find out a bit about Ronson pianos I wrote to the Ronson lighter people who had never heard of Ronson pianos and wanted to know more. I would like to know more. Not easy to track them down. Cant compare the tone of our Ronson 5ft. with anything else with any authority because i do not know. I can say with certainty there is nothing wrong with the bridge,wires or anything else, and that those who are supposed to know do admire the tone. As to room, it has always taken pride of place in a not very big house, two rooms were knocked into one because of it. We kids used to sit underneath and use the space as a play house while Dad thundered out 'fire, fire fire', or some other child enthralling piece when the air trembled. As you say...each to his own,

Post by **Gill the Piano** » 31 Oct 2008, 18:35

I loved the Punch cartoon of a chap leaning nonchalantly against his curved bar, waving a martini at his friend and saying 'It all worked out terribly well; I wanted a bar and the chap next door wanted a grand piano...'

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