Please bear with me, this probably sounds crazy, but what is the point of a key signature? I realise it tells you which sharps and flats to expect, but they are written at the front of the line, so WHY oh why, it is important to be able to say
"Ah-Ha, Horace! That's in Eb Major!"
Does it tell you anything more than what's already shown, ie the naturals, sharps and flats to expect other than accidentals?
I've been looking at a key signature calculator http://www.8notes.com/school/theory/key ... lation.asp as well. It's fascinating stuff and I'm really enjoying music theory (sad, I know) but I still find myself wondering why it's so important to know what key a piece is in when you already know the right notes to play.
*stands by for hysterical laughter*
Jan
Key signatures - blindingly stupid question
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Gill the Piano
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It's just shorthand; as you say, it tells you what to expect. If there's no key signature, then you think 'Phew, C major,' but then you realise that the relative minor is A, so then you know that you may come across the odd G#. Forewarned is forearmed and all that...
*no hysterical laughter whatsoever...*
*no hysterical laughter whatsoever...*
This is also where your scales will come in handy too. If you have practiced all scales in major and minor keys (which takes time!), then your mind automatically kicks into mode and, as Gill says, anticipates which notes will be flattened or sharpened. I've always found scales to be particularly useful in developing that awareness!
can you imagine a world without key signatures though? how cluttered the music would be!
Mind you in many pieces that have complex modulations its as if there is no key signature anyway!
Marky you are so right about scales! they're not just for developing the fingers, they're for getting to know your instrument and becoming familiar with musical grammar.
The old ways of practising are best - or at least, the best ways of practising are old
Mind you in many pieces that have complex modulations its as if there is no key signature anyway!
Marky you are so right about scales! they're not just for developing the fingers, they're for getting to know your instrument and becoming familiar with musical grammar.
The old ways of practising are best - or at least, the best ways of practising are old
Key signatures
It' actually much easier to play the piano - or any other instrument - if you learn to think in terms of keys. Your fingers and mind both know what notes to reach for if you become very familiar with keys. You learn to read chords very quickly and can often anticipate what's coming next if you understand keys and the chords within those keys.
All the best with your musical ventures.
Elaine
All the best with your musical ventures.
Elaine
Regard music as a precious gift. See me at www.yourforte.net. Elaine
Key signatures and scales
Ah yes, Dave, you've hit the nail on the head. Scale practice is not just good for your technique - building up strength, stamina and dexterity, etc - but it also gives you key sense and command. If you're very familiar with your sharps and flats from your scales it becomes second nature to reach for them in your pieces too.
Elaine
Elaine
Regard music as a precious gift. See me at www.yourforte.net. Elaine
Mm, I can't grasp why some of my pupils (I mean the adults amongst them) question the value of practising scales. Children, of course, often don't like the drudgery of them, but I don't understand why my adult students don't accept that musicians have been practising scales for hundreds of years (well I feel as if I've been practising them for hundreds of years anyway) for a reason. As Dave says, if these rules are good enough for generations of pianists then they definitely ought to be good enough for me and my pupils.
Regard music as a precious gift. See me at www.yourforte.net. Elaine
Scales
No, I'm sure you're not an abnormal freak, Dave. I like practising scales myself; I know they're doing me good and yet at the same time you can think about what you're going to have for tea because they don't take up too much mindspace. Also, when you can't face the challenge of learning a new piece, you can still feel satisfied that you're actually practising.
Mm, some people always think they know better...
I try to be sympathetic with the children I teach. I often call scales 'snails' in order to convey a mutual sense of boredom with them, and one of my pupils calls arpeggios 'effigies'. Mind you, I never hear the word clearly when my own first piano teacher talked about them. I knew what I had to do anyway. He did have a dreadful stammer, that man.
Mm, some people always think they know better...
I try to be sympathetic with the children I teach. I often call scales 'snails' in order to convey a mutual sense of boredom with them, and one of my pupils calls arpeggios 'effigies'. Mind you, I never hear the word clearly when my own first piano teacher talked about them. I knew what I had to do anyway. He did have a dreadful stammer, that man.
Regard music as a precious gift. See me at www.yourforte.net. Elaine
Mind you, I used to teach a woman who would play nothing but scales because she was frightened of anything else. That was a bit OTT
Regard music as a precious gift. See me at www.yourforte.net. Elaine
I must say that I also like practicing scales, not that I've done too many of them yet. It seems what I'm hearing is knowing a particular scale gets you in the "mode" of that tune for fingering once you recognise the key signature, rather than just knowing, say, that if there's one sharp it'll probably be an F, it's a more complete thing to say it's G maj.
Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle. Battle Ends And Down Goes Father Charles. I'm getting there slowly!
Jan
xx
Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle. Battle Ends And Down Goes Father Charles.
I'm getting there slowly!Jan
xx
Hi Nutroast -
I like your name. I'm a vegetarian - are you?
Yes, it's a more complete thing to say G major. But it helps you recognise chords and harmonies almost instantly too if you can think in terms of a key. I don't know if you've done any theory, but if you have, you'll know that by the time you get to Grades 4-5 you have to start learning about chords that are built upon the notes of the scales. Knowing the keys inside out and back to front helps you find the chords under your fingers very quickly without having to read each individual note. Any if you ever take it upon yourself to compose music then knowing what the chords are is of invaluable help - rather than noodling round for hours trying to find the right sounds just by ear.
I'm so pleased that someone knows that 'Father Charles' thing. I've had a prize on offer for about 25 years to any pupil who can come up with a nicer sentence that will work backwards and forwards. No-one's managed as yet..
Anyway, good luck with your piano-ing.
Elaine
I like your name. I'm a vegetarian - are you?
Yes, it's a more complete thing to say G major. But it helps you recognise chords and harmonies almost instantly too if you can think in terms of a key. I don't know if you've done any theory, but if you have, you'll know that by the time you get to Grades 4-5 you have to start learning about chords that are built upon the notes of the scales. Knowing the keys inside out and back to front helps you find the chords under your fingers very quickly without having to read each individual note. Any if you ever take it upon yourself to compose music then knowing what the chords are is of invaluable help - rather than noodling round for hours trying to find the right sounds just by ear.
I'm so pleased that someone knows that 'Father Charles' thing. I've had a prize on offer for about 25 years to any pupil who can come up with a nicer sentence that will work backwards and forwards. No-one's managed as yet..
Anyway, good luck with your piano-ing.
Elaine
Regard music as a precious gift. See me at www.yourforte.net. Elaine
Hello Elaine, hello all,
Yes, I'm a veggie, have been for nearly 25 years now
I've tried your challenge, but have only come up with Babies Eat And Dogs Go Catch Fleas, but, backwards, that sounds a bit bad...
Fleas Catch!, Go, Dogs And Eat Babies.
Back to the Father Charles one, I think!
Samick, my dad used to work for BEA, they still have a BEA shopping bag somewhere!
Jan
xx
Yes, I'm a veggie, have been for nearly 25 years now
I've tried your challenge, but have only come up with Babies Eat And Dogs Go Catch Fleas, but, backwards, that sounds a bit bad...
Fleas Catch!, Go, Dogs And Eat Babies.
Back to the Father Charles one, I think!
Samick, my dad used to work for BEA, they still have a BEA shopping bag somewhere!
Jan
xx
Re: Scales
I find doing Hanon is like that too! Your hands can go on auto-pilot as you think about other stuff.yourforte wrote: I like practising scales myself; I know they're doing me good and yet at the same time you can think about what you're going to have for tea because they don't take up too much mindspace.
Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle. Battle Ends And Down Goes Father Charles.
^ What is this memory aid actually for
, I have been siting here tring to think what its used for! as I haven't really come accross it before 
. I find the little rhymes a bit confusing and find it more easier to remember what ever it is, as it is; and not try to attach other meanings to it. I do sometimes use the A C E and Big Dogs Fart Alot for the bass notes if my memory gets a bit funny.
Hi there Anna,
The Father Charles thing tells you in which order the sharps are written in the key signature F then C then G etc and the reverse mmmmnemonic is for the flats B, E.
I definitely find those things help my jog my memory. Mind you, I'm still at the stage of reminding myself what cows eat
Jan
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The Father Charles thing tells you in which order the sharps are written in the key signature F then C then G etc and the reverse mmmmnemonic is for the flats B, E.
I definitely find those things help my jog my memory. Mind you, I'm still at the stage of reminding myself what cows eat
Jan
xx
Re: Scales
Sorry this ^ should be Great Big Dogs Fart Alot. I forgot to metion the G silly me! Thats why I don't like to remember them in sentences, as I forget to say them right. I find it easer just to associate the line or space with that note and it worked for me!Moonlight wrote: Big Dogs Fart Alot for the bass notes if my memory gets a bit funny.
Right, thanks Jan about the key signature thing. I get it! its got to do with the the circle of 5ths!
I just remember it like Dave does like: C major has no sharps or flats, G major has 1 sharp ( F# ), D major 2 ( F# C# ) etc...
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PianoAngel
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- Joined: 20 Aug 2008, 13:39
- Location: Glasgow
Nutroasts and mmmmnemonics
Thank you everyone for your suggestions for the mnenomics. They all made me laugh. I was once told one for remembering the stave lines of the treble clef: 'Every Green Bogey Deliciously Flavoured'. And for the strings of a guitar: ' Every Armpit Does Get Body-odour Eventually'. Unfortunately it's this sort of thing that sticks in your mind. Never mind what green buses do and what cows eat. Invariably I find a child will say something like "every good cow drives fast" or "all green boys fight animals". I used to cheat when I was a child when I was learning the bass clef, by reading the note as if the were the in the treble and then going two steps higher. To this day, I still cheat when I'm reading from the alto or the tenor clef. Well we're pianists aren't we? We play a civilised instrument, unlike those that need peculiar mid-range clefs.
Best wishes to everyone,
Elaine
Best wishes to everyone,
Elaine
Regard music as a precious gift. See me at www.yourforte.net. Elaine
Favourite Keys
Speaking of keys, does anyone have a favourite key? D flat major is my favourite key. I love to play in it and it seems to have a sumptuous, rich sound to me. I don't know why. I used to like E flat major best and that was my dad's favourite key too. He was a semi-professional musician and, although he could read music, he used to play songs by ear. I've still got some of his old tapes. I realise now that he played everything in E flat. I think I fell in love with D flat when I was buying a new hi-fi years ago and took some CDs along with me to try them out on Comet's (or was it Curries? Or perhaps Commies, or Currets?) stock. I remember taking Richard Strauss's Four Last Songs. D flat major sang out in all its glory and filled the whole shop.
Regard music as a precious gift. See me at www.yourforte.net. Elaine
I've never seen 'Spinal Tap' - although I've had one. D minor is a poignant key.
Regard music as a precious gift. See me at www.yourforte.net. Elaine
Spinal Tap
I need to get the DVD of that. It sounds really funny.
Yes a spinal tap is most uncomfortable. It's more commonly known as a 'lumbar puncture'. The doctors insert a needle into your spinal column and then drain off your spinal fluid - and I think they get some fluid from around your brain too. I think it's called 'cerebrospinal fluid'. They collect a huge amount of this stuff and it takes ages (well what seems like ages) so you're lying on your side in foetal position and if your legs accidentally move out of that position, or if the neurologist isn't as skilled as s/he should be, then it can result in paralysis or even death. So it's frightening. And then you've got to drink litres of water to replace the lost fluid and then you want to go to the loo but you're not allowed to because you've lost so much of this fluid from your central nervous system that you'd collapse in a heap if you don't lie there for a few more hours. And then there are the results to contend with. They subject the fluid to a number of tests (depending on what they think might be the matter with you) and then they lose the results and/or forget to tell your GP. Meanwhile you've diagnosed yourself on the internet.
So what's this got to do with D flat major?
How are you today?
Elaine
Yes a spinal tap is most uncomfortable. It's more commonly known as a 'lumbar puncture'. The doctors insert a needle into your spinal column and then drain off your spinal fluid - and I think they get some fluid from around your brain too. I think it's called 'cerebrospinal fluid'. They collect a huge amount of this stuff and it takes ages (well what seems like ages) so you're lying on your side in foetal position and if your legs accidentally move out of that position, or if the neurologist isn't as skilled as s/he should be, then it can result in paralysis or even death. So it's frightening. And then you've got to drink litres of water to replace the lost fluid and then you want to go to the loo but you're not allowed to because you've lost so much of this fluid from your central nervous system that you'd collapse in a heap if you don't lie there for a few more hours. And then there are the results to contend with. They subject the fluid to a number of tests (depending on what they think might be the matter with you) and then they lose the results and/or forget to tell your GP. Meanwhile you've diagnosed yourself on the internet.
So what's this got to do with D flat major?
How are you today?
Elaine
Regard music as a precious gift. See me at www.yourforte.net. Elaine
Re: Favourite Keys
Hi Elaine!yourforte wrote:Speaking of keys, does anyone have a favourite key? D flat major is my favourite key. I love to play in it and it seems to have a sumptuous, rich sound to me.
My favorite keys are minor keys for some reason, as soon as I hear a tune in a minor key I usually seem to really like it, I just find them more emotional. C# minor is nice, so is C minor, and Bb minor...
I love Chopin's Nocturne 1 in Bb minor Op 9 Its such a dark blue / purple colour...
Keys and Colour
Oo, anything you have to say about keys being associated with colour will be avidly read by me. My thesis is about colour. And I've got to say that dark blue/purple is such a superior colour in its own right.
I think one of my favourite pieces of music is Bach's Little Prelude in c minor (BWV 999). I never get sick of it even though it's so simple in structure (and so easy to play on the piano). Part of its appeal is the key it's in I think. I like c minor too. And I also like that Chopin Nocturne, btw. B flat minor is almost D flat major anyway.
Oh that Schubert piano sonata in B flat (D 960) has the most lovely slow movement in c sharp minor, although it has a beautiful beautiful last section in C sharp major. I like the use of major keys to convey poignancy. Schubert was so good at that. Well it was probably just his personality manifesting itself.
Anything you have to say about synesthaesia will be most welcome.
Elaine
I think one of my favourite pieces of music is Bach's Little Prelude in c minor (BWV 999). I never get sick of it even though it's so simple in structure (and so easy to play on the piano). Part of its appeal is the key it's in I think. I like c minor too. And I also like that Chopin Nocturne, btw. B flat minor is almost D flat major anyway.
Oh that Schubert piano sonata in B flat (D 960) has the most lovely slow movement in c sharp minor, although it has a beautiful beautiful last section in C sharp major. I like the use of major keys to convey poignancy. Schubert was so good at that. Well it was probably just his personality manifesting itself.
Anything you have to say about synesthaesia will be most welcome.
Elaine
Regard music as a precious gift. See me at www.yourforte.net. Elaine
Hi Elaine!
Yes I'm quite intrested in synesthaesia, as I think I have it. Sady I don't see colours with certain keys or indeed really by music; Its just that particular Chopin nocture makes me see those colours in my head. However I'm sure I could possibly have some mild synesthaesic reaction to music; as the other day I was listing to Beethovens Hammerklaiver adagio and all of a sudden I could 'see' red and gold colours in my head, it just happened, they were like clouds !? strange
The version of it I have, is certain words 'taste' of something. I don't notice it all time because its only a handful of words that do it.
I will have to have a listen to Bach's Little Prelude in c minor (BWV 999)
( is that the one that sounds like moonlight? ) and the Schubert piano sonata you mentioned. I'm still discovering the joys of classical music!
Do you get a colour reaction when listening to music?
Yes I'm quite intrested in synesthaesia, as I think I have it. Sady I don't see colours with certain keys or indeed really by music; Its just that particular Chopin nocture makes me see those colours in my head. However I'm sure I could possibly have some mild synesthaesic reaction to music; as the other day I was listing to Beethovens Hammerklaiver adagio and all of a sudden I could 'see' red and gold colours in my head, it just happened, they were like clouds !? strange
The version of it I have, is certain words 'taste' of something. I don't notice it all time because its only a handful of words that do it.
I will have to have a listen to Bach's Little Prelude in c minor (BWV 999)
( is that the one that sounds like moonlight? ) and the Schubert piano sonata you mentioned. I'm still discovering the joys of classical music!
Do you get a colour reaction when listening to music?
Hi Moonlight -
That's very interesting about the taste thing. When you talk about seeing colours in your head is it that you actually get sensations of the colours or what? And in connection with the taste - is it actually a taste you experience or just an imagined taste?
No, I don't get a colour reaction when I listen to music - although I would probably associate colours with keys if pressed.
Ah, go onto YouTube to listen to those pieces. I don't think the Bach piece I mentioned sounds like the Moonlight but I do tend to play it very quickly. The slow movement of that Schubert sonata is a glorious piece of music. (I listen to The Sugababes in the car...)
Elaine
That's very interesting about the taste thing. When you talk about seeing colours in your head is it that you actually get sensations of the colours or what? And in connection with the taste - is it actually a taste you experience or just an imagined taste?
No, I don't get a colour reaction when I listen to music - although I would probably associate colours with keys if pressed.
Ah, go onto YouTube to listen to those pieces. I don't think the Bach piece I mentioned sounds like the Moonlight but I do tend to play it very quickly. The slow movement of that Schubert sonata is a glorious piece of music. (I listen to The Sugababes in the car...)
Elaine
Regard music as a precious gift. See me at www.yourforte.net. Elaine
I don't know about sensations but its like seeing it in your mind's eye kind of thing, like when you read a book and you can imagine the scene. Only this its involunatry, the colours just happen.yourforte wrote: When you talk about seeing colours in your head is it that you actually get sensations of the colours or what? And in connection with the taste - is it actually a taste you experience or just an imagined taste?Elaine
The taste is a real ( known ) taste but its obviously imagined as there is no Marmite in my mouth when I hear / say / read the word 'bite' mmmmm tasty this only happens with words
Aaaah I have heard that bach piece then! yes its very nice, I would like to buy that piece and try to learn it. I metioned it in my post about classical pieces for beginners, I hope I could takle it as I have been 'teaching' myself for 8 months.yourforte wrote:I don't think the Bach piece I mentioned sounds like the Moonlight but I do tend to play it very quickly. The slow movement of that Schubert sonata is a glorious piece of music.
Yes, I will definitely check out the Schubert sonata, I will let you know after I have heard it
.