Which is why I'm not a teacher...
Teaching and developing a sense of rhythm
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Gill the Piano
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sense of rhythm is just that - a sense. Which means you have to sense it. So, rather than trying to play in time, its about being aware of the time. Put the metronome on and ask your wife just to listen to it for a couple of bars, maybe a bit longer. Then, as the beat sinks in, get her to tap her finger in time, on the table or something. She will gradually heighten her senses and they will develop naturally. The more she worries about it and 'tries' to correct it, the worse it will get.
This is no help to Mrs Brum, but people who have had a good musical education in their first decade have no problems with this sort of thing. Let's get real music specialists back into Primary Schools and get rid of the claim that general teachers can teach music!! People like Kodaly and Curwen knew what to do decades ago, but now their expertise is ignored.
Relating to what specifically? Rhythm? Pulse? Tone? Timbre?Descombes wrote:This is no help to Mrs Brum, but people who have had a good musical education in their first decade have no problems with this sort of thing.
As a primary school teacher, and given the commercial resources that are available to primary school teachers, it is fact that there is absolutely no reason why a "general primary school teacher" - whatever that means - can't teach music. Absolutely none whatsoever!
In fact, keeping a steady pulse and using rhythm through rhymes and songs is used to develop pre-reading skills by developing pace and familiarity with letter sounds, etc. in the early years, i.e 4+
Last edited by markymark on 09 Oct 2008, 21:57, edited 2 times in total.
Music specialists are not the answer and never have been as far as primary education is concerned. Children respond to a variety of contexts and not "a music lesson" in the common use of the term. I have seen it from the teachers' and pupils' perspectives. Joseph is right. Awareness of rhythm and pulse is a sense and has a lot to do with the creative development of a person. Some people have a natural sense of rhythm and some need to work on it to either develop or maintain that awareness. It doesn't need a specialist music teacher to fix that anymore than it takes a surgeon to cure a throat infection or a member of the DoE to hammer a nail into the wall to hang your pictures. Reinforcement and perserverance are the key factors here.
GOOD POINT MARKY! We've all sung nursery rhymes! When I'm teaching rhythm, including when I'm practising myself, it sometimes helps to put words to the rhythm, just like a nursery rhyme.
Everything has a rhythm, walking, speaking, breathing! The washing machine, sitting on a train, your pulse (hopefully) all these things have a natural rhythm. Remove the clutter and listen.
Music specialists incidentally often have crap rhythm! I know many musicians who are regarded as leaders in their field who can't keep a steady beat.
Everything has a rhythm, walking, speaking, breathing! The washing machine, sitting on a train, your pulse (hopefully) all these things have a natural rhythm. Remove the clutter and listen.
Music specialists incidentally often have crap rhythm! I know many musicians who are regarded as leaders in their field who can't keep a steady beat.
ABSOLUTELY!
I am the music co-ordinator in my school and I know what is happening in each classroom throughout the school. I can vouch for not having to be a specialist to teach music as most of my colleagues are not specialists but do a wonderful, thorough job nonetheless at teaching music. This use of nursery rhymes and songs is a very elemental phase in Year R and 1 kids in early years, but still very important. Everything musical in a classroom is covered in a cross-curricular way so that things like tables, classroom rules, months of the year, etc. are all covered in songs and melodies. Teaching through music is one of the most effective ways of promoting learning in the classroom because so many children have the sense of natural rhythm. They don't all have the same measure of musicality as Descombe's says but I wonder how many parents teach their children nursery rhymes and songs, particularly as they are proven to be so important to a child's development in so many ways? I can tell you for fact that these parents are few and far between and getter further and fewer as the years progress! There are some things that the PS2 can't teach them!
There is an all-too-common attitude towards primary teaching commonly found among individuals in the secondary sector or among those who do not teach in a school setting at all that seem to think that we just let the children paint and play all day in the classroom!
I am the music co-ordinator in my school and I know what is happening in each classroom throughout the school. I can vouch for not having to be a specialist to teach music as most of my colleagues are not specialists but do a wonderful, thorough job nonetheless at teaching music. This use of nursery rhymes and songs is a very elemental phase in Year R and 1 kids in early years, but still very important. Everything musical in a classroom is covered in a cross-curricular way so that things like tables, classroom rules, months of the year, etc. are all covered in songs and melodies. Teaching through music is one of the most effective ways of promoting learning in the classroom because so many children have the sense of natural rhythm. They don't all have the same measure of musicality as Descombe's says but I wonder how many parents teach their children nursery rhymes and songs, particularly as they are proven to be so important to a child's development in so many ways? I can tell you for fact that these parents are few and far between and getter further and fewer as the years progress! There are some things that the PS2 can't teach them!
There is an all-too-common attitude towards primary teaching commonly found among individuals in the secondary sector or among those who do not teach in a school setting at all that seem to think that we just let the children paint and play all day in the classroom!
Last edited by markymark on 10 Oct 2008, 16:35, edited 2 times in total.
It's funny you mentioned breathing, Joseph because that it one of the starting points in the early years as far as introducing steady pulse is concerned. They'll do various activities that look into breathing at steady intervals and compare with during and after exercise to discuss changes in pulse - this is with 4/5 year olds!
I also teach singing to 4 kids at school, and I did voice as my second instrument at the RSAMD - I almost made it my first, but the lure of the piano was just too much for me!
Why that is relevant to this discussion is that singing develops a sense of phrasing and rhythm like nothing else can. Choral singing in particular is an activity that every child should be encouraged to take part in. When the constraints of the instrument are removed and you sing, you are free to concentrate on the music. Thats why all these little tricks, putting words to the piano music etc, is really helpful.
Why that is relevant to this discussion is that singing develops a sense of phrasing and rhythm like nothing else can. Choral singing in particular is an activity that every child should be encouraged to take part in. When the constraints of the instrument are removed and you sing, you are free to concentrate on the music. Thats why all these little tricks, putting words to the piano music etc, is really helpful.
Hey Joseph, I went to the RSAMD... stage management though, not music and I had to leave after the first year when my brother died very suddenly. Still nice to 'bump into' someone else familiar with the school. 
)
Dave, on the subject of Mrs Brum's rhythm... have you tried getting her to find a natural rhythm before moving on to matching a rhythm? maybe try getting her to clap or tap out a regular beat. When she can do that quite happily you can always try to find a similar beat on the nome and get her to clap/tap to that, then over time, you can change the beat slightly until she can keep with the rhythm no matter what it is.
)Dave, on the subject of Mrs Brum's rhythm... have you tried getting her to find a natural rhythm before moving on to matching a rhythm? maybe try getting her to clap or tap out a regular beat. When she can do that quite happily you can always try to find a similar beat on the nome and get her to clap/tap to that, then over time, you can change the beat slightly until she can keep with the rhythm no matter what it is.
Very odd, Dave. Maybe there is a tear in the space-time continuum around Manchester or Brum-land? 
If the mrs can count in time but not clap or tap in time, that seems to indicate an issue of co-ordination rather than no sense of rhythm. I would say it's probably just a case of lots of rhythm practice. Have you tried counting and clapping at the same time with and without the nome?
I'm by no means and expert but these are the sorts of things I would try. Which probably means you've thought of them all before!
If the mrs can count in time but not clap or tap in time, that seems to indicate an issue of co-ordination rather than no sense of rhythm. I would say it's probably just a case of lots of rhythm practice. Have you tried counting and clapping at the same time with and without the nome?
I'm by no means and expert but these are the sorts of things I would try. Which probably means you've thought of them all before!
Since realising that my comments caused some offence to markymark we have been in contact privately. I have apologised for my imprecise use of language and we have realised that we are in broad agreement. I was complaining that some primary school teachers do not have the courage to teach music, since there is no-one to inspire and advise them. People like markymark provide this inspiration and this brings about impressive results. What worries me is the schools where there is no-one like markymark! There are plenty of schools in that position in this (mainly rural) area.markymark wrote:
As a primary school teacher, and given the commercial resources that are available to primary school teachers, it is fact that there is absolutely no reason why a "general primary school teacher" - whatever that means - can't teach music. Absolutely none whatsoever!
What can be done about it? Who should we lobby and pester to put money and staffing into music provision?
I was there in 1997 to 1998 - the year the drama and opera school did Benjamin Britten's opera A Midsummer Night's Dream (which started my love of opera!) So I guess we missed each other by one year because I only went back for about a week at the start of term in '98. Even after taking a year out I still couldn't go back. I would probably have been just about ready to go back in 2000 but by then it was too late.joseph wrote:what year were you at the RSAMD Kat? I was there from 1998-2003, then i went back in 05-06. Sorry to hear about your brother - I always feel really sad when I hear things like that!
I loved the RSAMD - it was an awesome atmosphere so totally unlike any other college or university.
Hello Dave,
You may think I'm daft (hmmm ?), but if Mrs Brum can count in time, but not clap or tap in time, then can you try asking her to turn it on its head and count out loud in time to her own clapping before she tries clapping in time with counting or the beat from something "outside", like the nome? Maybe that will help her bring them in sync.
Then she can try clapping to a tune with a well known beat, like Queen We Will Rock You. With practice, she'll soon be able to hear the beat and "predict" when the next clap ought to be.
If you played a few bars of the same note in crotchets in, say 4/4 and then missed one note out, she'd almost certainly notice. Maybe that will give her confidence and see that she probably knows more than she realises.
OK, I just re-read all this ramble and see that I AM daft, this is why I'm not a teacher!
Love,
Jan
xx
You may think I'm daft (hmmm
?), but if Mrs Brum can count in time, but not clap or tap in time, then can you try asking her to turn it on its head and count out loud in time to her own clapping before she tries clapping in time with counting or the beat from something "outside", like the nome? Maybe that will help her bring them in sync. Then she can try clapping to a tune with a well known beat, like Queen We Will Rock You. With practice, she'll soon be able to hear the beat and "predict" when the next clap ought to be.
If you played a few bars of the same note in crotchets in, say 4/4 and then missed one note out, she'd almost certainly notice. Maybe that will give her confidence and see that she probably knows more than she realises.
OK, I just re-read all this ramble and see that I AM daft, this is why I'm not a teacher!
Love,
Jan
xx
Britten is certainly responsible for sparking off many people's interest in opera (and in music in general.) In my case it was a production of Noye's Fludde when I was 12.Katmid wrote:
I was there in 1997 to 1998 - the year the drama and opera school did Benjamin Britten's opera A Midsummer Night's Dream (which started my love of opera!)
I was just an animal (a squirrel, I think) and was really just part of a huge chorus. But the impact of being involved in such a huge spectacle was amazing.
I am sure that Britten would be thrilled that we are having this discussion!
