Kaps restoration

planete · Post by **planete** » 13 Sep 2008, 21:35

I wrote a very long post about restoring my 100 year old upright Kaps and decided to spare you and just ask you to help with my main worry. If I decide to have the piano restored how do I know I will like what I get back?
I had no worries until I decided to visit a few reputable places and hear what restored old German pianos of good quality sounded like: Bechstein, Lipp, etc. I may be biased but I did not think they had as nice a tone as my Kaps, to me it 'sings' better. What are the possible reasons for this? Will my Kaps 'singing' quality be lost if I have it restored?
The piano I liked best of all the ones I tried was described as having a great dynamic range so I guess that is what I would like to preserve. What gives a piano this quality and could it be compromised by restoration?
Any info much appreciated!

Brumtuner · Post by **Brumtuner** » 14 Sep 2008, 13:08

If you retain the original strings and hammers, then it should sound as it does now. I've come across plenty of pianos that have been restored by a certain 'reputable dealer' (now out of business, thankfully) which have sounded almost like harpsichords due to the hardness of the hammer felt used, I won't mention their trademark 'complete lack of action regulation included with every restoration'.

My advice would be to have the hammers refaced rather than recovered. A lot cheaper, too.

drg2217 · Post by **drg2217** » 14 Sep 2008, 13:10

Having a 100+ year-old piano myself, which I had restored some years ago (though a grand rather than an upright), I would be interested to read your "very long post" (if you still have it). You could PM me if you don't want to post it on the forum. But I think that if you can post more details about your piano, you might possibly get more informative responses.

Brumtuner · Post by **Brumtuner** » 14 Sep 2008, 13:14

"you might possibly get more informative responses."

Well I admit I don't know that much about pianos, I've only been tuning 30 years but it'll come, it'll come.

Post by **Barrie Heaton** » 14 Sep 2008, 16:30

If you change any of the major components (soundboard, Strings or Hammers it will change the sound and dynamics of the piano. Even refacing will alter the sound and dynamics but you don't have as far to go voicing to get it to what you like

If you are having it restored there is no way of telling what it will turn out like However, you need a restorer who can come out and voice the piano to your needs on site or a tuner who is happy to work with the restorer getting the sound you want who lives closes by as it can take quite a few visits

Barrie,

drg2217 · Post by **drg2217** » 14 Sep 2008, 16:42

Brumtuner, my comment was general, it wasn't meant for you. We posted at about the same time, I had not seen yours yet when I posted. I was just pointing out that planete had not said very much about his Kaps, or what aspects of it he felt would benefit from restoration.

Brumtuner · Post by **Brumtuner** » 14 Sep 2008, 19:12

"Brumtuner, my comment was general, it wasn't meant for you"

drg, chill man, I know.

planete · Post by **planete** » 14 Sep 2008, 20:16

Thanks for all your replies. I did not include a lot of details because I did not want to influence your first reactions. I had thought the change of strings might have something to do with the disappointing sound of some of the pianos I tried .
My piano is tuned to A440, my present tuner is doing a wonderful job with it and no strings have broken yet, but two restoration workshops have said the strings should be changed as they are 100 years old and the bass is probably a bit duller than it should be. The hammers need recovering and my tuner was happy to send them to Germany to have this done.
The sound board seems OK. There are some very short splits around some of the bridge pins but they do not seem bothersome at the moment.
There are no real problems with the action even if I find it a little bit light probably due to my lack of skill. But I have been told that the keys wobble and there is a lot of wear in many of the little springs, cushioning felts and pieces of leather, none of which I had noticed.
The piano gets played about 12 hours a week and sounds harsher than it did a year ago when I bought it.
The estimates for renovation come at around £4000. The piano I liked best in the shops cost £5800 (I did not try the ones I can only dream about!)
The hammers will not be changed, with luck the soundboard will prove to be OK. If I could retain the strings I would then stand a good chance of my piano remaining much as it is now (thanks Barrie and Brumtuner). How does one decide whether they must be changed? If they definitely need changing, which maker would provide the strings most likely to give a similar sound to the ones in the Kaps? I have been reading about Delacour, Phil Taylor, Puresound, EKA, Roslau steel... and I am no wiser as I do not know the difference.
The sound board could need repairing if it had cracks. Would these repairs also alter the sound? And is it always necessary to repair small cracks in the soundboard ?
I told you it was a long post, sorry! I would like to think I have found out as much as I can before I make a decision. I really want to try and preserve this piano but I am frightened of spending a lot of money and ending disappointed.

drg2217 · Post by **drg2217** » 15 Sep 2008, 02:15

When it comes down to it, if you have your piano restored you don't know for certain in advance what it will sound like. You have to place your trust in the restorer. It is therefore crucial to find a restorer in whom you have confidence, and who will strive to realise your aim of preserving the singing quality of your Kaps.

I was in a similar position several years ago when I had my 1881 grand restored. My restorer recommended that the piano be restrung, and the hammer felts renewed (is that the same as recovering?). I was immensely pleased by the result. The piano sounds superb, with its previous good qualities enhanced.

I hear conflicting views about repairing soundboards. I have a strong impression that provided that the ribs remain securely attached, some cracking of the soundboard will not affect the tone of the piano. My restorer repaired a crack in my soundboard. Unfortunately (and despite my using a humidifier) the board has cracked again, but my restorer and my tech both assure me that I need not worry, and this will have no ill effects. And certainly I can hear no difference. I really wonder whether to conclude that repairing a soundboard is mainly a cosmetic exercise.

planete, I am still not really clear what aspects of the Kaps you are unhappy with, that are leading you to think of restoration.

planete · Post by **planete** » 15 Sep 2008, 08:05

Thanks for sharing your experience of restoration. Even though the piano has no obvious problems at the moment, there is a lot of wear in the action, the hammer felts are very thin and I can hear that after a year of playing the sound is getting harsher. My idea was to get the piano overhauled so that I would not have to keep having bits and pieces mended every so often over the next few years, and stop deterioration in the piano's performance.

sussexpianos · Post by **sussexpianos** » 17 Sep 2008, 12:32

When changing the hammers, the technician should be able to get a close enough match and get them bored to pattern. Also check the weight of the hammers and shave bits off to match the original weight if needed. Change the strings, strings get brittle over time so a new set sound give the piano a bit more soul. The bass strings should be done to patterns anyway but the bass string maker should be a reputable one.
Then have the hammers toned to what you like. I wouldnt have the hammers refelted, for one its expensive and second the old woods might break in the mold.

planete · Post by **planete** » 18 Sep 2008, 07:42

I am off this week-end to look at NEW PIANOS! I feel I must find out what is out there for up to £4000 before I commit such an amount to a renovation. If the Kaps is still my favourite after all, then I will go ahead bearing in mind all your advice.

mdw · Post by **mdw** » 18 Sep 2008, 08:06

Just remember that your piano is stuck together with animal glue. You could have the best restoration job in the world done costing thousands and if an animal glue joint opens up 1 year later its not great news!!. Its with heavy heart I warn customers of this but I am seeing more and more glue joints cracking on pianos right up to the early 60s ( before modern glues). Most are bridges but I see a lot of veneer peeling off especialy when the pianos been polyestered and other case joints failures. NO workshop in the world will be able to guarantee old glue joints wont fail at some future time. Some of these pianos are now coming up for 100 years old and im sure their makers didnt expect them to last more than 30-40.

drg2217 · Post by **drg2217** » 18 Sep 2008, 16:57

My hunch is that you will prefer the Kaps!

By the way, I don't know if your 4000 pounds includes any work on the action? Maybe you could get away with just regulating it, which might improve things a bit and wouldn't be too expensive.

planete, I think you will enjoy this thread:

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultim ... tml#000000

Also, there are some very favourable references to Kaps here ("One of the best German pianos (mainly uprights) were made by "Ernst Kaps" of Dresden, his pianos were known as "the poor man's Steinway", though there was nothing poor about them!")

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultim ... tml#000015

Do let us know what you decide.

planete · Post by **planete** » 21 Sep 2008, 08:52

Yes, I bought the Kaps in the first place because I had seen how highly they were thought of, and a year ago it sounded pretty good to my novice ears.
However, I tried several new pianos yesterday morning. I will share my experiences with you in case somebody may find the information useful.
I was very interested in trying a Kemble Conservatoire and was more or less convinced that if I was going to buy anything, it would be a Conservatoire. The big shock was that this incredibly well-built, well regarded piano produced a sound that left me completely cold. I can only conclude that my musical 'ears' need some more education. Other pianos: Yamaha U1, second-hand: pleasing, but a tiny bit tired. Wendl and Lung: wonderful bass, not quite as good going up the keyboard. Eisenberg: could not make up my mind about it, could not fault it, much better musicians than I am rave about it, decided if I did not know what to think about it I should not consider it. Kemble Concerto: a tone I fell in love with, warm, consistently good sound, but probably not a very 'stirring' sound. The Kemble 121: this piano sounded good throughout, powerful enough, good singing tone. It did take me some time to get used to it but the more I played it, the more I wanted to play it and to play with it. I wanted to really see what it could do: soft and romantic, jazzy, or boring exercises. It did not disappoint at any time. I will not leave you in suspense any longer: I have bought it!
I feel I have bought a trouble-free piano I am going to be happy with as I go on, and that I am getting good value for my money (no, I am not getting a discount for plugging it). I am rather excited but felt a bit of a traitor playing my Kaps last night. My poor piano does sound very tired in comparison. I believe it will be restored and sold on to somebody else and I hope it will recover its wonderful original qualities and make somebody else very happy. So be it. I could only spend the money once and I decided to play safe.
Many thanks to all of you who found the time to try and help me. I will let you know how I get on.

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