What do i do when a dealer fails to address some issues i have regarding a new piano i purchased from them. ?
I took advice from the forum and didn't go down the internet route, and subsequently purchased from a local dealer.
Thus far,the service from this particular company is pathetic.
Your views and comments would be much appreciated.
Dealer response
Moderators: Feg, Gill the Piano, Melodytune
Even if you did buy it as a bargain basement clearance it should still be covered. Only if sold as a trade sale sold as seen with no guarantee either given or implied written on the invoice should you be left hanging in the wind.
However there does seem to be a run of posts with " I paid naff all for my piano and the servce I got was c**p!!!!!" as the theme. This coment is not specificaly aimed at you but the point needs making.
Go to trading standards if you need to. However the sticky note is an easy fix and the graphics will just need replacing. Just as a matter of interest howfar away from you is the shop.
However there does seem to be a run of posts with " I paid naff all for my piano and the servce I got was c**p!!!!!" as the theme. This coment is not specificaly aimed at you but the point needs making.
Go to trading standards if you need to. However the sticky note is an easy fix and the graphics will just need replacing. Just as a matter of interest howfar away from you is the shop.
The piano in question is a new Zimmerman....less than 2 years old, and the company in question is about 40 miles from me..
It is certainly NOT bargain basement clearance, and i paid a lot more than "naff all "...
A guarantee of 5 years was given to me at the time of purchase..
I realise that the problems i have are quite minor...but they are responsible, and i feel they should sort them out...afterall, they where certainly on the ball when i was about to place an order....
It is certainly NOT bargain basement clearance, and i paid a lot more than "naff all "...
A guarantee of 5 years was given to me at the time of purchase..
I realise that the problems i have are quite minor...but they are responsible, and i feel they should sort them out...afterall, they where certainly on the ball when i was about to place an order....
Yes they are responsible. The reason they have not come running is they are looking at 3 hours to come , do the repair and go home. BUT THATS NO YOUR PROBLEM. They took your money knowing where you lived, now they should provide the service ie the 5 year guaratee. If they dont, hassle Intermusic who are the UK distributors .
Perhaps I should have worded my comment better. I realy meant that people are buying pianos where the dealer makes "naff all" as a margin and although the customer thinks they have paid lots for the piano, the dealer may have made £250 on a £4000 piano. His decision to do so but it hardly gives the incentive to come running when there is a prolem. What does the guarantee say.
If they dont sort it out make sure you spread the news of how rubbish they are to other people , thats the only way to sift the wheat from the chaff!!!
Perhaps I should have worded my comment better. I realy meant that people are buying pianos where the dealer makes "naff all" as a margin and although the customer thinks they have paid lots for the piano, the dealer may have made £250 on a £4000 piano. His decision to do so but it hardly gives the incentive to come running when there is a prolem. What does the guarantee say.
If they dont sort it out make sure you spread the news of how rubbish they are to other people , thats the only way to sift the wheat from the chaff!!!
If the piano's not brand new, then unless you pointed it out at the time of purchase and the dealer agreed to repair it, the lettering is irrelevant. I assume you're talking about the "Made by Bechstein, Berlin" lettering on the end of the nameboard? That's really badly put on in the first place (on a Bechstein, let alone a Zimmermann!) and is done in cheap stamped gold foil which invariably wears off with routine cleaning, so the dealer would have to order a new nameboard from Germany just to rectify that. If it were replaced, the same thing would likely happen again within a year or two anyway, so I'd live with it if I were you.daisey wrote:The piano in question is a new Zimmerman....less than 2 years old, and the company in question is about 40 miles from me..
I expect the dealer (and justifiably in my opinion) thinks you're a right pain in the :oops: for bleating on about that, since it's purely trivial, and sorry to be blunt, but you are being unreasonable here..... But I repeat: If the dealer had promised to repair it, then *he's* being unreasonable, not you.
The sticking key should be put right though, absolutely no question. The piano should have a complimentary first tuning from the dealer and it should be rectified at that time.
Less than 2 years old is new - but not spanking new that you can claim that they sold you a defective instrument and you want them to take it away - give your money back etc etc ...
I am uncertain what the dealer offers in the UK... In France the standard minimum offer is to deliver the piano, and one tuning after 3 months... they also talk of doing a voicing - but it is unclear whether this is included in this price or something one pays extra for. I assume that you have had it tuned once or twice already ... and that the sticky key is a new problem that you want to have taken care at the next tuning/inspection of your tuner. So my question is - why do you find another tuner/technician to service your piano. He should be able to fix this sticky key.. but if there is a serious fault he can give you an independent view on this, so that you can take it up with Bechstein themselves.
Regarding the "Made..." label.... on our new Bechstein academy 124... the BECHSTEIN is something that is deep into the name board - this will never come off. The "MADE IN GERMANY" look like some stick on characters that you could buy in some paper shop... really cheap low-quality stuff. My son and I discussed this and decided if letters came off .. we would just remove them all and clean off any residual glue etc. and be done with it.
I do not want to give dealers of expensive pianos an easy ride ... but unless these are original faults that they promised to fix initially I think it will be hard to get them to take an interest.
Courage...
I am uncertain what the dealer offers in the UK... In France the standard minimum offer is to deliver the piano, and one tuning after 3 months... they also talk of doing a voicing - but it is unclear whether this is included in this price or something one pays extra for. I assume that you have had it tuned once or twice already ... and that the sticky key is a new problem that you want to have taken care at the next tuning/inspection of your tuner. So my question is - why do you find another tuner/technician to service your piano. He should be able to fix this sticky key.. but if there is a serious fault he can give you an independent view on this, so that you can take it up with Bechstein themselves.
Regarding the "Made..." label.... on our new Bechstein academy 124... the BECHSTEIN is something that is deep into the name board - this will never come off. The "MADE IN GERMANY" look like some stick on characters that you could buy in some paper shop... really cheap low-quality stuff. My son and I discussed this and decided if letters came off .. we would just remove them all and clean off any residual glue etc. and be done with it.
I do not want to give dealers of expensive pianos an easy ride ... but unless these are original faults that they promised to fix initially I think it will be hard to get them to take an interest.
Courage...
My original post was...
"What do i do when a dealer fails to address some issues i have regarding a new piano i purchased from them. ? "
I didn't expect to be told i was being unreasonable, and that i am a right pain in the
as PG suggested...
Maybe i should have gone down the internet route afterall, at least the cash i would have saved could be put to some good use...
"What do i do when a dealer fails to address some issues i have regarding a new piano i purchased from them. ? "
I didn't expect to be told i was being unreasonable, and that i am a right pain in the
as PG suggested...Maybe i should have gone down the internet route afterall, at least the cash i would have saved could be put to some good use...
If you bought a new BMW and the badge fell off would you expect it to be replaced?
Piano is no differet to a car its just another big ticket product. Treat it as such. Unless you have caused the damage and you could say that snaging the letters on a duster has caused it, then they are liable. If they are a decent company they would sort this out just for good will alone.
Piano is no differet to a car its just another big ticket product. Treat it as such. Unless you have caused the damage and you could say that snaging the letters on a duster has caused it, then they are liable. If they are a decent company they would sort this out just for good will alone.
I do not want to nitpick but
However the problem of the sticky key should be taken care of by your friendly tuner/tech... and certainly if there is a fundamental problem he will help you take this up with the dealer and Beckstein. To use an analogy of a car - even though they come with a guarantee - you still need to get them serviced from time to time.
With the letters coming off from the name board ... what exactly do you want? You want some technician to come and restick on a new letter that is missing? Do you want a new nameboard to be supplied - by all means complain loud and long to Bechstein since these low quality letters do not match the quality of the rest of the piano... but also do not let this bit cosmetic stupidity stop you enjoying your piano.
The problems of buying a piano through the internet is (a) you are buying something that will be part of the music you yourself make - it is no good getting a new piano through the internet and then saying that is sounds 'too loud, too mellow, too whatever" - in my view - especially given the large differences between identical models of Zimmerman (and Bechstein Academy) - you have done well to personally select your piano. And (b) also if there was a serious defect with the piano - you have a real dealer where you can complain.
The idea is to get a piano that you really enjoy - do not get diverted about cosmetic details or whether the dealer fixes the sticky key - or your regular tuner.
Implies a fresh new piano - not one that is nearly two years old. If this new piano had been delivered with these faults - and you get no joy from the dealer - then you have a right to feel aggrieved and obviously strong action would be needed."What do i do when a dealer fails to address some issues i have regarding a new piano i purchased from them. ? "
However the problem of the sticky key should be taken care of by your friendly tuner/tech... and certainly if there is a fundamental problem he will help you take this up with the dealer and Beckstein. To use an analogy of a car - even though they come with a guarantee - you still need to get them serviced from time to time.
With the letters coming off from the name board ... what exactly do you want? You want some technician to come and restick on a new letter that is missing? Do you want a new nameboard to be supplied - by all means complain loud and long to Bechstein since these low quality letters do not match the quality of the rest of the piano... but also do not let this bit cosmetic stupidity stop you enjoying your piano.
The problems of buying a piano through the internet is (a) you are buying something that will be part of the music you yourself make - it is no good getting a new piano through the internet and then saying that is sounds 'too loud, too mellow, too whatever" - in my view - especially given the large differences between identical models of Zimmerman (and Bechstein Academy) - you have done well to personally select your piano. And (b) also if there was a serious defect with the piano - you have a real dealer where you can complain.
The idea is to get a piano that you really enjoy - do not get diverted about cosmetic details or whether the dealer fixes the sticky key - or your regular tuner.
daisey wrote:My original post was...
"What do i do when a dealer fails to address some issues i have regarding a new piano i purchased from them. ? "
I didn't expect to be told i was being unreasonable, and that i am a right pain in the
Well, I really think that your concern over a minor label on a used piano is unreasonable and your attitude over that could be making an otherwise reasonable dealer push your complaint to the back of the queue. Fair enough on a new one.
The only valid issue he has failed to address is the mechanical fault. You do not state whether you have already had the first tuning, and whether this is paid for by the dealer. If you have this due to you then the fault is almost certainly going to be fixed on that appointment if the dealer is doing his job. You should really have been offered a first tuning inclusive in the price, so if you haven't, maybe you should simply ask for one.
You don't state what steps you have taken so far to try and get satisfaction. You've made a good choice in the Zimmermann.
PG....Used piano ???......It was new....Admittedly it's not new now, because i have owned it for 2 years from new...The logo issue first came to light about 18 months ago, and because i have this other problem, i thought it might be a good idea to mention it again...
I still don't think it's unreasonable behaviour on my behalf...I believe this is all down to the dealer...They took my money, agreed a 5 year guarantee, and told me at the time to call them should i have a problem....
Other than ring them and send the occassional email, i havn't done anything else to get satisfaction...thats why i posted on here...in the hope that some knowledgeable person/s may offer some help...
I still don't think it's unreasonable behaviour on my behalf...I believe this is all down to the dealer...They took my money, agreed a 5 year guarantee, and told me at the time to call them should i have a problem....
Other than ring them and send the occassional email, i havn't done anything else to get satisfaction...thats why i posted on here...in the hope that some knowledgeable person/s may offer some help...
If it's on a five year guarantee, I absolutely agree with mdw, particularly over the issue of the mechanical fault. Lettering is a sticky issue at it is not anything to do with the piano's function. I'm not sure how anyone could guarantee brass lettering, but still, I can't see how the dealer couldn't kill two birds with one stone and fix both problems when one definitely (and legally!) deserves attention.
Guarantees provide assurance of quality and function. If the parts of the piano are guaranteed (which you say they are!) then repair is not an issue - it's a statuatory right!
Guarantees provide assurance of quality and function. If the parts of the piano are guaranteed (which you say they are!) then repair is not an issue - it's a statuatory right!
Ah!daisey wrote:PG....Used piano ???......It was new....Admittedly it's not new now, because i have owned it for 2 years from new...
I now agree with you totally!
I interpreted your post that it's a piano new to yourself, but two years old, ie a nearly-new used one. In that case certainly the dealer should sort you out asap. The lettering is still a minor issue, but it should be no real problem for them to order up a new nameboard and yes, it would show willing if they did. In the case of a new instrument they obviously have a relationship with the importer (Inter-Music) so it shouldn't be difficult for them to order a new part, whereas if it *had* been a used piano, they may not have a Zimmermann dealership, so would have no way of obtaining spares without great cost to themselves.
Of course, you could always approach Inter-Music direct (The MD is one Richard Webb) and mention your dissatisfaction with the dealer. That usually gets results.
My sincerest and humblest apologies for previous blunt replies.
PGxxxx
I dont see why the lettering should be excluded. Otherwise where do you stop. Ive seen veneer start to peel off the fall or some very expensive german pianos. It doesnt affect the playing of the piano but it takes a massive chunk off the resale price as it very very expensive to repair properly. Sticking falls on cheap polyester pianos where it then rubs and grinds looking a mess? If they dont want to honour a 5 year guarantee , dont give one.
Is the problem here that dealers are pushed into selling for less and less margin and go so low relying on there being no guarantee problems? Then when there are problems there is no good will to go and sort them out. I have a level to which I am willing to reduce the price and after that I will decline to deal with the customer as I know my heart wont be in it.
The plus side to this is that when they buy their cheapy discount piano and the inevitable problems happen I am there to help them out and I can assure you there is NO discounting that side of the service I supply.
Are the public aware that some dealers are making £200- £300 margin on delivering, tuning and guaranteeing a £3500 piano. The saying is "you pay peanuts you get monkeys". It is mostly the trades fault for too many dealers being willing to drop their trousers and bend over the moment a customer comes along with a internet printout. We need to have more pride in the product and service we offer. But as long as there is one plonker out there others will follow. Do you think if we all put a living margin on a piano sale that the piano market would stop over night. No almost the same number of pianos would still be sold but at a fair profit margin. Turn over is vanity, profit is sanity.
Is the problem here that dealers are pushed into selling for less and less margin and go so low relying on there being no guarantee problems? Then when there are problems there is no good will to go and sort them out. I have a level to which I am willing to reduce the price and after that I will decline to deal with the customer as I know my heart wont be in it.
The plus side to this is that when they buy their cheapy discount piano and the inevitable problems happen I am there to help them out and I can assure you there is NO discounting that side of the service I supply.
Are the public aware that some dealers are making £200- £300 margin on delivering, tuning and guaranteeing a £3500 piano. The saying is "you pay peanuts you get monkeys". It is mostly the trades fault for too many dealers being willing to drop their trousers and bend over the moment a customer comes along with a internet printout. We need to have more pride in the product and service we offer. But as long as there is one plonker out there others will follow. Do you think if we all put a living margin on a piano sale that the piano market would stop over night. No almost the same number of pianos would still be sold but at a fair profit margin. Turn over is vanity, profit is sanity.
OK - now we all understand the problem... a ~ 2 year old piano - a Zimmermann that even though it is not the highest quality piano that Bechstein makes - it is certainly in the class of expensive high-class German pianos. The buyer did not pay a rock bottom price so the dealer must have made a reasonable margin on this sale:
Now (a) some lettering on the name board starts falling off after 6 months and (b) there is a sticky key. Problem (a): this is a problem of Bechstein and should be covered with the Bechstein 5 year guarantee - the dealer should kick up a big fuss and maybe Bechstein will stop using these cheap trash lettering ... however also Daisey should not get too distressed over this thing - he/she can still enjoy his/her piano to the full even with this cosmetic fault. But the dealer should be bugged to deal with this - and if no joy - go to the importer or Bechstein themselves.
Problem (b): the sticky key - I assume that this is a new problem and hopefully can be taken care of by the tuner/tech. Their is no need to get the piano tuned via tuners connected with the original dealer - personally I would get an independent tuner to look at this problem and either fix it - or make a report on it so that Daisey can start to fight with the dealer.
As Daisey said originally - this dealer sounds pathetic since Daisey paid a reasonable price for a high quality expensive instrument. How about naming and shaming the dealer or is this not allowed on the forum?
Now (a) some lettering on the name board starts falling off after 6 months and (b) there is a sticky key. Problem (a): this is a problem of Bechstein and should be covered with the Bechstein 5 year guarantee - the dealer should kick up a big fuss and maybe Bechstein will stop using these cheap trash lettering ... however also Daisey should not get too distressed over this thing - he/she can still enjoy his/her piano to the full even with this cosmetic fault. But the dealer should be bugged to deal with this - and if no joy - go to the importer or Bechstein themselves.
Problem (b): the sticky key - I assume that this is a new problem and hopefully can be taken care of by the tuner/tech. Their is no need to get the piano tuned via tuners connected with the original dealer - personally I would get an independent tuner to look at this problem and either fix it - or make a report on it so that Daisey can start to fight with the dealer.
As Daisey said originally - this dealer sounds pathetic since Daisey paid a reasonable price for a high quality expensive instrument. How about naming and shaming the dealer or is this not allowed on the forum?
Apologies accepted PG...and many thanks to everyone who has contributed...
A little bit of progress has been made today...i won't hold my breath for too long...LOL....I rang the dealer again ( 3 times this week, and i had to call them each time ), and i was told that the sticking key was not something they would carry out under guarantee, time of the year apparently..but anyway, in this particular instance they would...so, i am to contact my regular tuner, get it dealt with and to send them the bill ( i'm expecting them to pay the bill...
)...
The logo...well, they will look into it.... not going to hold my breath at all on this one...
I will keep you posted.....
A little bit of progress has been made today...i won't hold my breath for too long...LOL....I rang the dealer again ( 3 times this week, and i had to call them each time ), and i was told that the sticking key was not something they would carry out under guarantee, time of the year apparently..but anyway, in this particular instance they would...so, i am to contact my regular tuner, get it dealt with and to send them the bill ( i'm expecting them to pay the bill...
)...The logo...well, they will look into it.... not going to hold my breath at all on this one...
I will keep you posted.....
Bizzare re them not covering the sticky note but maybe the sticky letters!!!!! WTF is the guarantee for then if not for sticky notes and the like. How many tuner techs on here have had major structural failures on a piano an how many get the odd sticky note to sort out on a new piano. To be honest sticky notes and rubish prep by supplying dealers is all I seem to sort out on new pianos.
Since when did the guarantee say not playable when its been raining a bit!!!
I think you are suffering from having bought a piano from a dealer too far away from you who spent his profit 2 years ago and cant be bothered now.
Since when did the guarantee say not playable when its been raining a bit!!!
I think you are suffering from having bought a piano from a dealer too far away from you who spent his profit 2 years ago and cant be bothered now.
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Gill the Piano
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- Joined: 25 Oct 2003, 19:39
- Location: Thames Valley
I get hacked off with the dealers who won't let anyone but their tuners attend pianos. I have customers who have bought from a dealer, prefer my tuning but are held to ransom by the dealer saying the guarantee only covers their tuners. Either the piano's guaranteed or it isn't; as long as the tuner is trained properly there should be no quibble. Accordng to the Office of Fair Trading, this practice is illegal. But the customers don't realise it...
It happens for 3 reasons.Gill the Piano wrote:I get hacked off with the dealers who won't let anyone but their tuners attend pianos. I have customers who have bought from a dealer, prefer my tuning but are held to ransom by the dealer saying the guarantee only covers their tuners. Either the piano's guaranteed or it isn't; as long as the tuner is trained properly there should be no quibble. Accordng to the Office of Fair Trading, this practice is illegal. But the customers don't realise it...
1 The dealer made a tiny margin on the sale so this ensures some profit.
2 The local tuner has the hump as he didnt get the sale and rubishs a perfectly good piano.
3 If you get a guarantee problem and can sort it when the tuning is done its a lot cheaper than having to go out to just do the guarantee repair.
I dont agreee with it but understand why.
I think the practice is certainly illegal, although I think the dealer is well within his rights to recommend or supply himself the tuner for the initial tuning. After that, any qualified tuner should be able to do the job, although if the tuner is himself a dealer or works exclusively with another dealer, it can cloud the issue .Gill the Piano wrote:I get hacked off with the dealers who won't let anyone but their tuners attend pianos. I have customers who have bought from a dealer, prefer my tuning but are held to ransom by the dealer saying the guarantee only covers their tuners. Either the piano's guaranteed or it isn't; as long as the tuner is trained properly there should be no quibble. Accordng to the Office of Fair Trading, this practice is illegal. But the customers don't realise it...
A story:
Not far from my area there is a superb dealer who has an excellent reputation for restoration. A year or so ago I was asked to carry out a post-delivery tuning on a newly rebuilt Blüthner that they did, and the piano's owner informed me that he already had a regular tuner and would be using him in future. No problem from my point of view, and the other tuner (also a restorer-dealer and a member of a well-known trade association) was duly given the job of tuning it from that point on.
A few weeks ago, I received a call from the piano's distressed owner saying that his regular tuner had found the piano to be 'below pitch' when he arrived to tune it (not unusual, since it had new eye strings and it was 6 months later...) and found it necessary to hammer the wrestpins into the plank to encourage them to hold. His tuner had told him that the pins were loose and that this process was regrettable, but necessary. Since I had done the first tuning, the owner asked would I be prepared to tune it again one more time and assist him with a warranty claim with the dealer.
Now. When I tuned it the first time, there was certainly no problem with even remotely loose pins, and this was hardly surprising since it had been given a new laminated plank as part of the restoration. My guess here was that his regular tuner was so miffed at not getting the restoration job that he deliberately wanted to find fault with it. Ironically, if the pins have indeed been hammered down, then the warranty will be void anyway.
What happens here then? The tuner who effectively wrecked the piano is on paper at least, highly qualified. (Sadly, this doesn't prevent him from being a vindictive, mean git). I have yet to visit but will keep you informed!
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Gill the Piano
- Moderator
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- Joined: 25 Oct 2003, 19:39
- Location: Thames Valley
Tuned a Z1 today, and a lovely piano it was too. Reminded me of this thread when I noticed:daisey wrote:Some gold lettering depicting where the piano was manufactured is missing.
One of the keys is sticking.
The nameboard had "Zimmermann" in inlaid brass letters, "Made by C Bechstein, Berlin" in stamped-on gold lettering, and "Mad in Germany" on a cheap looking removable adhesive sticker. Now whilst I am not totally in agreement with this statement (although there is a certain amount of early 20th-Century evidence to back it up) this isn't exactly my point. Yes, a letter had come off. Strangely enough it really didn't seem to bother the owner.
If, "daisey", you're complaining about a letter or two missing or damaged from the "Zimmermann" logo, or even the "Made by C Bechstein, Berlin" stamp, then maybe you have a point for concern, but the "Made in Germany" sticker is *meant* to be removable, and no dealer on Earth should be expected to do chuff-all about it.
As for the sticking key, well yes, atmospheric conditions can cause problems, so I suggest you simply call your regular tuner as suggested and send the dealer the bill. This is common practice for small problems where it is uneconomic for a dealer to undertake a long round trip (80 miles in your case, so you imply) to sort things out quickly. I'm asked to do this all the time for dealers who've sold outside their area.
Seems like you're making mountains out of molehills to me, but do keep us all informed, won't you?
Personally I would expect my tuner to fix minor problems - which he does - as part of the tuning visit. I am certain that if the problem was more serious - he would charge for fixing it. Whether or not I would claim the cost against the guarantee would depend on how much it cost and also how much I judge it to be caused by poor workmanship of the manufacturer - but everyone is free to do what they feel is right.
Regarding these cheap letters that say "MAD IN GERMANY" - I wouldn't go as far as saying that they are meant to be removed - but certainly if the start to come off on my name board- I would remove the lot and be done with it .. it is a puzzle to me why Bechstein/Zimmermann use such cheap lettering on such a nice instrument - maybe there is some truth in PianoGuy's words that they are meant to be removed (just about everything PG says seems to be true).
Anyway - when is the next episode of the the Archers?
Regarding these cheap letters that say "MAD IN GERMANY" - I wouldn't go as far as saying that they are meant to be removed - but certainly if the start to come off on my name board- I would remove the lot and be done with it .. it is a puzzle to me why Bechstein/Zimmermann use such cheap lettering on such a nice instrument - maybe there is some truth in PianoGuy's words that they are meant to be removed (just about everything PG says seems to be true).
Anyway - when is the next episode of the the Archers?