Tone Control on Digital Pianos

Geelan · Post by **Geelan** » 12 Sep 2008, 15:05

In this forum's thread "Is Using a digital piano, bad for your fingers touch???" Joseph makes the comment:

Exactly! Its the touch gradations that a clavinova just can't do!

I think the question of tone is, perhaps, worthy of a thread in itself.
I wonder if there are beginners trying to reproduce all the nuances of a piece as they have heard it on CD,
only to find themselves frustrated and failing to do so because tonal gradations are not reproducible on their digital pianos?
A worse scenario is in failing to realise the problem lies with the instrument and not with the player!
Though I'm familiar with the tone controls of radios and televisions, I cannot quite grasp the concept of tone control on an acoustic piano - I have never played one.
An explanation of what is an acoustic piano tone, and how it is achieved, to those of us using digital, may well be as difficult as explaining the concept of colour to somebody born blind, but it should help us to recognise the limitations of our digital instruments and that, perhaps, the time has come to move over to an acoustic.

Moonlight · Post by **Moonlight** » 12 Sep 2008, 16:46

Hi Geelan,

When I bought my Clavinova digital piano, I kind of knew it wouldn't be like the real deal. The mid range on my didital is definitely not as good as the mid range on an decent acoustic; even though I own the 2nd from top model, the Clp 370. It has a muffled sounding mid range, I did try out a cheap upright, can't remember the make, and it sounded muffled too.

As for the tone control there donsn't seem be much subtlety to the nuances of a digital, because you are only hearing sound samples not whats really going on inside the piano when you strike the key. Digitals don't have all those mechanisms inside them that gives an acoustic its character.

I knew I wouldn't be able to produce the sounds you could get if it was a real piano. But its fine for me to get to grade 3, I'm definitely going to get an unpright when I reach grade 3.

I'm sure most beginners that buy cheap uprights or digitals relise they won't be able to produce what they hear on their CD recordings, because when recording piano music for CD its done on a very good piano ( and a good pianist ) , to get the best sound, I would think.

joseph · Post by **joseph** » 12 Sep 2008, 18:12

Thats all good information. Digital pianos have brought many people back to the piano, have introduced many more to the piano and can be incredibly useful if you have lots of notes to learn in a hurry, and need to practise late. So, all that is a good thing. There are also some situations that I'd prefer to use a digital piano in: a theatre band pit for instance, usually the sound guy doesn't really know how to mic an upright or grand, and the piano is never in tune so at panto season, a Clavinova is the thing to use!

However this thread is about tone. When you play digital pianos you have 2nd hand tone production - someone else played the note, and you are playing a recording of them playing the note. So, you are at the mercy of the pianist who played the note etc.

Tone is important, especially above grade 3. An accurate crescendo or diminuendo simply can't be done on a digital instrument as yet, because you can hear the jumps between the samples.

Legato depends on two factors: The joining of the notes, and the tonal relationship between each note. Legato is hard enough to do on a brand new Steinway D, let alone a digital piano that jumps to the next sample all the time! Thats why even a battered challen upright might be a better option for practising tone on than a Clavinova. OK, its not gonna make you feel all warm and fuzzy when you play it - Clavinovas have really comfortable actions - but it will be more truthful!

markymark · Post by **markymark** » 12 Sep 2008, 21:58

I remembered answering questions about this on the Digital Pianos forum. Unfortunately, this cold I have is seriously stunting my performance - at typing that is!

So I'll just give you the links to the forum that are relevant to your question:

http://www.uk-piano.org/piano-forums/vi ... php?t=6176

http://www.uk-piano.org/piano-forums/vi ... php?t=4913

Geelan · Post by **Geelan** » 12 Sep 2008, 23:59

Many thanks to all for your responses.
It looks as if an acoustic is on my shopping list.
Tweaking Ivory or the VSL Bosendorfer settings, adjusting velocity curves or simply controlling volume with the left hand, would not allow me the tonal control which I knew had to be achievable.
I had been experimenting with Legato to achieve that smooth, continuous tone which is so pleasing - impossible!
I hadn't tried Diminuendo or Crescendo, nor will I now with the digital.
But, at least, I now know why. And I know its not me!
However, I can live with those limitations for a while. The digital remains superb for most other training exercises.
My choice of an acoustic will probably be one of the following 3 from Yamaha: P121N, U1 or U3.
If you can offer any advice on the relative merits and demerits of those three, I'd be delighted.
One company here has a range of reconditioned U1's and U3's for sale. However, I don't want to fall for a grey import and there are indications Europe is flooded with them.

markymark · Post by **markymark** » 13 Sep 2008, 13:00

Well I own a Yamaha P121N and it's fine - save for the fact that it needs some tweeking; stuff that I reckon should have been done before it left the showroom.

I remembered getting some advice from the Piano forum and they told me that a U1 and P121N had the same insides save for the U1 having a more solidly constructed case. I went for the P121N owing to the slightly smaller casing - when I say smaller, I talking about 1-2cm width! Needed to be able to fit between the chimney breast and the left wall!

joseph · Post by **joseph** » 13 Sep 2008, 14:05

Sounds like a nice piano. All pianos need a bit of tweaking when they're new it would appear.

Geelan · Post by **Geelan** » 13 Sep 2008, 17:29

Had a chat with a number of dealers - one an authorised Yamaha dealer and service centre.
A new P121 = around 6.3K Euro, U1 new = around 8.5K Euro.
Used U1 ( 20 years old) = 4.6K Euro, used U3 (20 years old) = 5.5K Euro.
Haven't managed a price on a used P121.
If what dealers say is true - pianos in Ireland are selling like buns in a famine - must be the weather - everybody's indoors assaulting Hanon.
Interestingly, dealers say the growth of electronic instruments has had no appreciale effect on acoustic piano sales.
What are your feelings about a twenty year old acoustic?

markymark · Post by **markymark** » 16 Sep 2008, 17:44

Try forwarding this question to the tuners and dealers on the piano forum. They would be able to advise you about pianos and best pricing and value for secondhand and brand new pianos.

Geelan · Post by **Geelan** » 16 Sep 2008, 21:38

I had a feeling somebody would make this suggestion!

In fact, over the last few days I've been reading that forum - looks like buying new is confusing but buying s/h is a nightmare.
I've posted a new topic there to start things rolling. It may take a while to reach a final decision but I think it is going to be well worthwhile!

markymark · Post by **markymark** » 16 Sep 2008, 21:44

When I bought my new acoustic piano, I posted there too to get a background info. First, I'd go out and try the pianos for now and see which models I liked the feel of. Try playing a range of stuff on the pianos and see which you prefer. Then try and compare what your preferences are with what the tuners and retailers say. You find that Yamaha has dominated the acoustic piano market, but Kawai seems to be making a come back and depending on who you talk to, would be ranked higher than some of the equivalent or similar models within the Yamaha range.

Whatever they tell you, you should only use it to inform what you think already and not to take it as a prescription for the ideal piano. That is a very personal decision and one that no one else can make for you. Incidentally, I say the same when advising people on the Digital Pianos' forum.

Geelan · Post by **Geelan** » 16 Sep 2008, 22:09

Yes! I agree fully. The only problem over here is to get one's hands on new instruments. Unlike digital, testing a used unit to make a decision for a new one probably won't work. Besides, I'm mighty suspicious of the secondhand market here - there are too many, most with the same description, same pricing and same vagueness when asked for details. I'm also quite sure there weren't that many original purchases thiry years ago who are now unloading onto the used market!